The Dark Knight Rises "Unrealistic" Villians

[Damiean Dark]

Honestly, what's up with all the realism stuff latley? I mean, yeah, I'm all for making a movie more relatable for audiences, but who does Nolan think he's kidding? BB wasn't that realistic. He made a movie about a guy who dresses up in a Batsuit, and fought a guy who runs an orginzation that burns down cities, steals a machine that vaporizes water (but somehow not the water in humans...) and a crazy guy who likes to use fear gas to scare the hell out of people.

Now aside from that, a villian not being included in a batman movie for realisim is ridiculous to begin with! THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! It's a movie about a vigilante that dresses like a bat, somehow is never caught by the police or the FBI, and everybody likes him. The movie isn't realistic to begin with, so why should we change villian's backrounds to make them more "real?"

damn right i dont know about the rest of u but Nolans take will never be batman to me if he is adamant these villains wont appear.

 

[Nepenthes]

Touche. Smart indeed. Hadn't thought of that.

"Is Ra's Al Ghul immortal? Are is methods...supernatural?"

It's right there in the movie!

I agree with your point about framing the science behind the villains in reality. That'll a huge part of any serious movie especially for characters like Freeze and Ivy.

Freeze could be done with a dry ice gun instead of a laser like ray that encases people in blocks of ice. In the comics Freeze actually shoots a liquid that freezes on contact, but point is it would LOOK too sci-fi on film...the points ChristianBaleBatman makes about the ILLUSION of reality are entirely correct. Dry ice is something we've all scene firsthand in real life.



And Clayface CAN be done imo! The powers are NOT what makes the character it's the motive and the gimmick. See mine and Robin91939's posts last page. Elements of his power can even be 'realistically' retained...a plastic surgery fuu*ck-up means he can easily adopt new faces, which ties into his actor past to produce themes of 'shifting identity' or 'lack of identity', meaning he can assume various guises but no longer be one true person.

Eastwood and Infinity 9999x. You mongrels. This is a thread about fitting the comic books into Nolans style. It's quite simple to understand. If you don't like Nolans approach then why bother posting stuff *we've heard a thousand times before* and is lame, lazy and ignorant anyways. Don't bother responding.

I'd like to redirect that post to this rat above me ^ and NolGoyHater of course.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno......I've never heard, or read, that Nolan was so adament about the realism.

I think the realsim thing is something alot of fans have ran with.

Watch Batman Begins. PLEASE. Watch it. Lie to me. Tell it's a ****ing documentary.

It's got the illusion of realism. But, it's hardly real. The Batmobile flying on rooftops. Batman gliding. A man in a batsuit. Fear Toxin. Secret society of ninjas.

C'mon. If you thought Batman Begins was very realistic, then you were fooled. It did it's job, I suppose, by suspending your disbelief well enough.

But, c'mon.....I think the realism aspect is something too many fans have gone too far with.

 

[GL1]

I dunno......I've never heard, or read, that Nolan was so adament about the realism.

I think the realsim thing is something alot of fans have ran with.

Watch Batman Begins. PLEASE. Watch it. Lie to me. Tell it's a ****ing documentary.

It's got the illusion of realism. But, it's hardly real. The Batmobile flying on rooftops. Batman gliding. A man in a batsuit. Fear Toxin. Secret society of ninjas.

C'mon. If you thought Batman Begins was very realistic, then you were fooled. It did it's job, I suppose, by suspending your disbelief well enough.

But, c'mon.....I think the realism aspect is something too many fans have gone too far with.

Indeed... but that doesn't change the fact that the movie does provide an illusion of realism, while comics only offer the *suspension* of disbelief.

Look at your examples... a fear toxin? Perfectly possible... a secret society of ninjas? What other kind of society of ninjas are there? 45 mintues dedicated to how a man in a batsuit might come to be. And while I think memory fabric was a strech, as well as the concept of a bridge making car-tank, IF those things existed, then what was done with them is entirely possible, and both of them were explained in such a way as to make them seem real, AND these two were among the *few* things that were impossible in Batman Begins...

limited impossibilities, well explained extraordinariness...it all produces the Illusion of Reality. Batman Begins has it, Batman Returns doesn't. That's not fan imagination, that simply movie analysis and criticism. Nolan doesn't need to make a statement, he's made a movie with a great deal of illusion of reality. The suspension of disbelief required for Batman Begins is so small, especially compared with movies like Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, Spider-Man and Superman Returns... that one can easily call it 'realistic' even if there are a couple things in the movie which are not...

Again, Batman Begins requires some suspension of disbelief. But not nearly as much as, say James Bond 18-20 or Daredevil.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

 

[Two-Face]

I love to see Man-Bat as a villain in future movies but I don't know how could be done in Nolan's Bat-World.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I kinda disagree though.

I think whatever dryness people claimed, isn't b/c of the realism.....but from the approach. It's strongly influenced by Batman The Long Halloween. That story is simply put, a somber and serious approach in tone to the character. Same as Year One, too. Those stories are dry in many ways b/c of the lack of "grandeur" or something.

I mean, really.....realsim isn't anything new. Daredevil didn't make any sense b/c it was as if they lived on Planet Matrix or something. They would just float in the air. It was off putting, namely in the playground fight scene....a scene that alone didn't make sense. But, something like Spider-Man has a sense of realism, for it's own world of course. It's why we got organic webbing, instead of the webshooters. It's why we got the micro-hairs on his fingers instead of "force of will". X-Men also go for realsim. Superman went for realism too.

I think the realsim is just more evident, and gets more heat, b/c Batman cannot lift a giant building.....or swing through Gotham.....or fly at blinding speeds. Since he's human, it's just easier for us to point out, I think. But, the realism thing is nothing new to the superhero film genre.

 

[batman7289]

manbat is real
:0

 

[Mr. Socko]

Neeson better come back by using the Pit!

 

[TimeSplitter]

My favorite Batman villian ever is the Riddler. The perfect casting choice for him would be...Steve Buscemi!

I've also always wanted a story with Riddler's origins being a newspaper reporter. Think like Bruce Almighty, he does all the silly stories nobody cares about. Then he gets a really good story and develops the interview question "Riddle me this...."

Perfect!

 

[Joker]

I was just wondering how some of the more unrealistic would fit into the Nolanverse.

Some of my ideas are:
Mr. Freeze: He could be a scientist that Joker knocks into a vat of chemicals. The chemicals destroy mess up his brain, so he turns to crime. I would like to see him in some kind of suit, but it would have to be a realistic one.

Clay-Face: He could be a crime boss that was in an accident, so his face is all screwed up (It looks like his face is made of clay, hence the nickname "Clay-Face).

If you have any ideas, please share them.

they should just do Golden Age Clayface, actor turned criminal Basil Karlo

 

[Mr. Socko]

The way I see it, if a villian can't be introduced in a Batman movie some kind of way, then they're going about it the wrong way. If it can happen in the comics, it should be able to happen in the movies.

 

[Damiean Dark]

But Nolan seems to think penguin cant be brought to his franchise WTF is that about? i dont expect the crazy (but brilliant) batman returns pengy just make him a simple arms dealer who has a touch of snobbery about him and a fondness for birds its so simple.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Exactly. It could definitely be done.

 

[Jenksflash]

Honestly, what's up with all the realism stuff latley? I mean, yeah, I'm all for making a movie more relatable for audiences, but who does Nolan think he's kidding? BB wasn't that realistic. He made a movie about a guy who dresses up in a Batsuit, and fought a guy who runs an orginzation that burns down cities, steals a machine that vaporizes water (but somehow not the water in humans...) and a crazy guy who likes to use fear gas to scare the hell out of people.

Now aside from that, a villian not being included in a batman movie for realisim is ridiculous to begin with! THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! It's a movie about a vigilante that dresses like a bat, somehow is never caught by the police or the FBI, and everybody likes him. The movie isn't realistic to begin with, so why should we change villian's backrounds to make them more "real?"

I wondered about that myself. My only justification is that the beam on the train was focused straight down at the water mains and any human would get vaporized(war of the worlds style).

 

[Jenksflash]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

How could anyone have been disappointed with BB? I almost ran my head through a wall because someone did a Batman movie so well. Didn't read any reviews on the movie and just joined this board. Mistakenly thought any comic fan would love it.

 

[Rockbottom]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

Actually thats what made the film for most critics.

 

[Nepenthes]

It's also why people went to see the movie in the first place

Honestly it's times like this when a part of me says Screw The Fans. We can read comic books. Movies are for everyone.

 

[killingyouguy]

My take on the villains that we don't know will be in a future movie:

Hugo Strange - Could be explained pretty easily, but his M.O. is pretty lame. There are much better villains. Only bring him in if running low.

Catwoman - Definately should be a big part of the series. You can't tell Bruce Wayne's story without Selina Kyle IMO. Catwoman is very easy to explain (similar to Batman, with the suit and whatnot). Would start of as a villain then toe the line like she did in the comics.

Clayface - Maybe, if done like the original Clayface, Basil Karlo. Pretty weak M.O. (IMO) and very similar to other (better) villains. Only use if running low.

Penguin - I disagree with Nolan, I think Penguin is pretty easy to put in these movies. British, called "the Penguin" and has weaponized umbrellas (and if he's a British gangster/arm's dealer that wouldn't be too hard to explain). That's it. As long as you have that, you can do whatever you want with him IMHO.

Riddler - I would rather not see him. Although he could be explained he would come of as a weak, more harmless version of the Joker. Maybe a minor/cameo role.

Mad-Hatter - No. Too silly. Running around trying to get hats on people, bleh.

Deadshot - Maybe, but not very well known. Doesn't really fit the "feel" of these movies, feels more like a Marvel character.

Mr. Freeze - No. Too unrealistic.

Poison Ivy - With her "super powers" over plants, no. But maybe if she's just an insane biochemist who uses her knowledge of plants & chemicals in her crimes, that could work.

Man-Bat - No.

Killer Croc - Hell no.

Black Mask - Yes. Easy to explain. Rumoured he could be in the next movie, which I would like. Hopefully he'll be introduced in a minor role in the next one and become a larger villain in the 3rd (alongside Two-Face).

Ventriloquist - No. Well, maybe in a very small role (like Zsasz in BB) as an escaped inmate from Arkham or something. Who's quickly caught by Batman.

Harley Quinn - I can see her in a latter movie. I think Joker should go to Arkham at the end of TDK or the start of the 3rd movie and stay there 'til like the 5th or 6th (which I think should be the last) movie where he escapes. With minor scenes in the movies inbetween showing him in Arkham, maybe with Dr. Quinzel. But I think she would have to be a much darker character than in the comics/cartoon. Personally, if she's done well I'd like her in, but if she's not I wont be crying.

Bane - No. Stupid.

Hush - Yes. Easily explained and offers something different in that his conflict is personal with Bruce Wayne.

In summary:

Yes: Catwoman, Penguin, Black Mask, Hush
Maybe, if minor/cameo (like Zsasz): Riddler, Deadshot, Ventriloquist
Maybe, if done right: Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn
Only if you have no one else: Hugo Strange, Clayface
No: Mad-Hatter, Mr. Freeze, Man-Bat, Killer Croc, Bane


So that's about 8-10 main/secondary villains (including Ra's, Scarecrow, Falcone, Joker & Two-Face) plus a possible 4 minor villains (including Zsasz) over this new series. Which I think should be about 6 movies altogether. I think that's plenty, and covers the vast majority of the popular villains without breaking the feel of the movies (if done right).

KYG

 

[GL1]

Interesting take on things...

I would push Catwoman towards the no side, because Batman's suit really can't be applied to anyone else (Kyle industries has government contracts??). And Catwoman being able to keep up with Batman needs a really good explanation... she can't just be mentioned (Oh, and this other chick scales buildings too).

I would put Mr. Freeze more towards the yes because a liquid nitrogen gun and toning down his need for coldness puts him firmly in the realm of reality... and he's got a good story, honestly.

 

[killingyouguy]

I would push Catwoman towards the no side, because Batman's suit really can't be applied to anyone else (Kyle industries has government contracts??).

By "similar with the suit" and whatnot I mean in putting a suit together. Not the same one as Batman. She could rumage around in her wardrobe for gloves & boots. Maybe even the suit as well (she could have an old lycra bodysuit, maybe from excercising or gymnastics). The mask could even be an old Halloween mask. Or perhaps after nearly being caught (or seeing Batman) she decides she needs a mask and goes to a shop, choosing a cat mask (maybe out of remembering her cat-loving mother who committed suicide - from the comics). And after a tough fight with a guard (or even Batman) decides she needs some sort of weapon so she puts claws on the gloves, then finds the cat-o-ninetails during a robbery, forced into using it she decides she likes it and keeps it. Wouldn't need to explain that all in one movie maybe the costume & claws in her first appearance and cat-o-ninetails in her second. Just some ideas.

And Catwoman being able to keep up with Batman needs a really good explanation... she can't just be mentioned (Oh, and this other chick scales buildings too).

She could have been a very good gymnast when she was younger. And her fighting ability could be explained by many years of crime & living on the streets. What do you think?

KYG

 

[Spideyfan01]

Bane - No. Stupid.

I don't think Bane's stupid. He could work in the Nolanverse if they just got rid of his venom and made him a bodybuilder.

 

[GL1]

By "similar with the suit" and whatnot I mean in putting a suit together. Not the same one as Batman. She could rumage around in her wardrobe for gloves & boots. Maybe even the suit as well (she could have an old lycra bodysuit, maybe from excercising or gymnastics). The mask could even be an old Halloween mask. Or perhaps after nearly being caught (or seeing Batman) she decides she needs a mask and goes to a shop, choosing a cat mask (maybe out of remembering her cat-loving mother who committed suicide - from the comics). And after a tough fight with a guard (or even Batman) decides she needs some sort of weapon so she puts claws on the gloves, then finds the cat-o-ninetails during a robbery, forced into using it she decides she likes it and keeps it. Wouldn't need to explain that all in one movie maybe the costume & claws in her first appearance and cat-o-ninetails in her second. Just some ideas.

She could have been a very good gymnast when she was younger. And her fighting ability could be explained by many years of crime & living on the streets. What do you think?

In a word? I think it's forced. A very good child gymnast does not equate to leaping from building to building, and living on the streets increases prostitution skills, not fighting ability. Even though it's conceivable for her to put together a catwoman halloween costume, WHY would she do it? If she needs to hide her face she buys a ski mask, just like all cat burgulars. And we're not even going to go into learning to use a whip or stretching out her story over two movies.

I would adapt Catwoman as a high tech jewel thief and use the cat-reminicent goggles from recent comics as her favorite tech. She does things exactly as her father taught her and not necessarily able to travel like Batman she knows a few getaway tricks and of course, Selina and Bruce vibe completely... I would change the game so that Batman and Catwoman Do NOT click... at all. Bitter enemies. Makes the reveal so much cooler if there's no mirror to their in an out-of-costume lives.

As for pain, let "Venom" be some tweaked Adrenale and make him a muscular hitman. His muscles don't need to double in size for him to be stronger... and pumping adrenaline is something REAL people do. Being a hitman too. All better. Bane's a helluva lot more realistic than Joker, who survives getting his face bleached...

 

[killingyouguy]

In a word? I think it's forced. A very good child gymnast does not equate to leaping from building to building, and living on the streets increases prostitution skills, not fighting ability. Even though it's conceivable for her to put together a catwoman halloween costume, WHY would she do it? If she needs to hide her face she buys a ski mask, just like all cat burgulars. And we're not even going to go into learning to use a whip or stretching out her story over two movies.

I would adapt Catwoman as a high tech jewel thief and use the cat-reminicent goggles from recent comics as her favorite tech. She does things exactly as her father taught her and not necessarily able to travel like Batman she knows a few getaway tricks and of course, Selina and Bruce vibe completely... I would change the game so that Batman and Catwoman Do NOT click... at all. Bitter enemies. Makes the reveal so much cooler if there's no mirror to their in an out-of-costume lives.

Uh, no thanks. Selina Kyle's father was a drunken laybout who killed himself after his wife did. Whatever she learnt from him it certainly wasn't burglery. In most interpretations she was on the streets in her early life, often as a prostitute (although usually only for a short while after not turning a trick). She also seems to learn her skills in this period, working with numerous criminal elements. Like I said, maybe she goes for something a bit more theatrical after seeing Batman and a catlike disguise appeals to her on personal level. I certainly want a more traditional Catwoman outfit then the more modern day interpretation, but as long as they get her character right I don't care what she wears. EDIT: I agree with the Selina/Bruce clicking and Batman/Catwoman not (well at least not much).

But if you're looking for a comic book movie to be entirely based in reality, with realistic explanations for everything, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

 

[GL1]

I stated pretty clearly that I want the illusion of realism. If you don't understand the difference between giving something the illusion of reality and basing something in reality, then you'll have to either study up or listen up.

There needs to be a reason why Catwoman is so agile, talented with a whip and capable of stealing jewels. Using her father goes against comics, I understand that, but 'living on the streets' is not an origin for an olympic gymnast world class jewel thief who's nice with a cat-o-nine tails... it just isn't... you might as well make her be able to fly cuz she did good on her SATs...

Any motivation will do to put on a costume, but establishing her at a competitive skill level requires explanation... or wil she get Cat powers, like Pfeiffer??? Perhaps if she gets pimped by/to a world class theif he might take a shine to her and apprentice her or whatever, but that would mean making that guy a sizable supporting character, imho...

But if you're looking for a comic book movie to be entirely based in comics, with comic book explanations for everything, you're going to be sorely disappointed.