Upon second viewing...

[AznBABYBANDIT]

i'd keep cyclops fate the same, but you see him die, and have her actually see her emotions, and have her and ro some dialogues ( not a fight tho ). And see rogue maybe having one or two mins during the final battle, to decides if she wants the cure

 

[Seen]

I would have loved for another 'secret' ending where the camera hovers over the forest at Alkali Lake, continuing to hover over a body, and then settling on Scott's head as he opens his eyes, his optic blasts shooting towards the screen as we cut to black.

I would have preferred that over what we got (Xavier still alive) in my opinion.

 

[XCharlieX]

The X-Men saga is very similiar to the original Star Wars trilogy -- I very much relate the first X-Men to A New Hope, for introducing us to these characters and this fantastical world, I relate X2 to The Empire Stikes Back, for its darker, edgier handling of these characters and how the stakes were raised, the drama was amplified and more was at jeopardy (for the characters and for entire world), and I relate X-Men: The Last Stand to Return of the Jedi, a lighter approach with as much dumb aspects as good aspects. Not a perfect way to end the trilogy, but a passable way.

Sorta true, except X-men is less convoluted with fantasy for my tastes than the barrage of fiction we get with star wars. Thats something i always liked about x-men.

However x3 being lighter... hmm... one thing i was praising Ratner for is not watering anything down. Where wolverine handled someone he didnt just punch them or something lame. X3 imo was a hard pg-13, true to the other ones.

One of the things i couldnt forgive t3 for was the fundamental change in approach, self effacing. Im glad Ratner didnt do something so foolish.

 

[GoldGoblin]

Cyclops dying would of been better if they had Cyclops at Jean's house with the Professor.Then Cyclops could of been out front having some action scenes where he is trying to get into the house.

Then Cyclops tries to save the Professor,but Jean kills them both.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Cyclops should defintately have had a bigger role, him and Jean are the focus of The Pheonix story, and you dont hve to reduce Wolverines screentime to gvie Cyc a bigger role, just make the movie longer for christs sake.

 

[XCharlieX]

Cyclops dying wasnt a beef of mine, but i can see what compounded the die hard cyclops fanbases distaste was that he was gone in a flash. I wouldve made an extended beginning for him at the mansion. He only talked to wolverine while leaving pretty much as he was on his way to perish heh. I think a conversation with xavier or storm wouldve served well.

 

[ultimatefan]

I think XIII is as good as it could have been under the circumstances. It's a 3 out of 5 movie, whereas the previous two were 5 out of 5 movies.

The main problem is simply that Wolverine and Storm, the characters who have the least to do, have the most screen time. If anything it should be Wolverine and Rogue, as they are (or atleast began as) the two main characters of the saga. Interesting how Halle Berry and Anna Paquin's screentime is completely reversed between X1 and XIII. Let's face it, the movie Rogue is far more interesting than the movie Storm.

So much potential with Rogue, completely wasted in XIII.

I agree. I would have loved to see her face the reactions of the other X-Men towards her taking the cure. Of course Bobby will understand it, he loves her, but what about Storm, for instance? It wasn´t simply the fact that she took the cure, I can get it from her perspective, just thought it could have been developed a little more.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

The X-Men saga is very similiar to the original Star Wars trilogy -- I very much relate the first X-Men to A New Hope, for introducing us to these characters and this fantastical world, I relate X2 to The Empire Stikes Back, for its darker, edgier handling of these characters and how the stakes were raised, the drama was amplified and more was at jeopardy (for the characters and for entire world), and I relate X-Men: The Last Stand to Return of the Jedi, a lighter approach with as much dumb aspects as good aspects. Not a perfect way to end the trilogy, but a passable way.

X3 "lighter" than X2?

I think you got that backward. Nothing is darker than Dark Phoenix. I'll put her up against anything in the first 2 for "darkness". And anytime you have 5 main characters either die or lose their abilities, that's some "darkness' there. (Luckily....as it always works in movies and comics....the characters don't really die or lose their abilities.)

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Cyclops should defintately have had a bigger role, him and Jean are the focus of The Pheonix story, and you dont hve to reduce Wolverines screentime to gvie Cyc a bigger role, just make the movie longer for christs sake.

Waitaminute....

You guys really believe Scott died? Am I the only one that's ever watched a movie or read a comic before? There is a rule: "If you don't see them die...they didn't". Heck....sometimes you see them die and they don't really die.

I agree about Scott having a bigger role. But that sin was with the series from the first movie. It would have been nice to have Ratner correct the mistake Singer made and actually give the LEADER of the team some focus...but he chose to stick with Singer's vison for Scott as a minor character.

 

[XCharlieX]

X3 "lighter" than X2?

I think you got that backward. Nothing is darker than Dark Phoenix.

I agree. I correlate x3 more to the result of x2s dark chapter. Strykers "one day" line at the end of x2 felt fulfilled imo. X3 was pure ugly imo... where we were waiting to see who was standing afterward.

The trilogy is more of rising mutant /human tension that gets crazier each movie rather than the middle chapter being the most sinister. And its interesting because the worst battle happens out of nowhere when mutants are beginning to be accepted it hits a brick wall in x3. Very nice imo.

But I do feel its an epic saga to at least be compared with star wars. Which is better is of course debatable. Different tastes will favor one or the other.

 

[ultimatefan]

Waitaminute....

You guys really believe Scott died? Am I the only one that's ever watched a movie or read a comic before? There is a rule: "If you don't see them die...they didn't". Heck....sometimes you see them die and they don't really die.

I agree about Scott having a bigger role. But that sin was with the series from the first movie. It would have been nice to have Ratner correct the mistake Singer made and actually give the LEADER of the team some focus...but he chose to stick with Singer's vison for Scott as a minor character.

Yeah, in comics when you don´t find a character´s body it often means they´re not dead. Even in Jean´s flashback we don´t see him being demolecularized.

 

[Seen]

I meant that X3 was lighter tonally -- as in, a lot of the pathos and character development was missing.

 

[ultimatefan]

I meant that X3 was lighter tonally -- as in, a lot of the pathos and character development was missing.

In therms of pathos, no, not really. Jean´s arc is very dark, darker than anything in X2. When you look back at it, X2 was not really so big in character development, like in X3, you feel that some characters are underwritten, like Cyke and even Jean prior to her sacrifice scene.

 

[Seen]

In therms of pathos, no, not really. Jean´s arc is very dark, darker than anything in X2. When you look back at it, X2 was not really so big in character development, like in X3, you feel that some characters are underwritten, like Cyke and even Jean prior to her sacrifice scene.

X3 has a ton of great ideas and characters but doesn't develop them at all and that hurts the movie. It's obvious that Brett Ratner was obsessed with pacing and excitement but not with character and consistency.

Some examples:

1. Angel: His first scene he's cutting off his wings and he's clearly ashamed of his mutant status. In only his second scene he's about to be cured and out of nowhere decides he likes his wings and wants to be a mutant. Then he appears at the Xavier Institute and then appears one last time to save his father at the end of the movies. That's his entire arc. He's there! That's it. He might as well have not even been in the movie. You could literally cut every one of his scenes. The mutant cure could have been dreamed up by a faceless pharaceutical company and it wouldn't have changed the story at all. I think Angel was there to motivate Worthington Sr. into seeking the cure but there was no real arc for either Worthington so it rang totally hollow.

2. Dark Phoenix: I don't think the Dark Phoenix Saga as presented in the comics would have worked for X3 so I suppose what they offerred in X3 was a bit of a compromise and quite a lot of it works. The problem with Dark Phoenix though is that Ratner focuses on how Xavier sees her. How Magneto sees her. How Logan sees her. It never concentrates on how she sees herself and thus we're unsure if she's enjoying being Dark Phoenix or if she hates it. The comic made it clear that being evil was a turn on to her. The movie doesn't and we have to infer everything.

3. Xavier: A lot of good stuff is set up about his past but not really developed. We know that he feared Jeans potential and thus locked it away. But we don't see the toll it took on him to harm another mutant in that way. We don't see how he contrasts his actions against the new mutant cure. We know he's well meaning but he comes off as a man who raped a young girl and has spent his whole life hiding it from her and everyone else. He's quite unsympathetic and in a way that was brave of Ratner and the writers. I think the only thing that really makes his death have impact is that he's built up a lot of goodwill with the audience over the course of the first two films. If this were my first X-Men movie I'd think Xavier a cold bastard.

4. Logan: He really got the Han Solo treatment in X3. Just as in A New Hope and Empire Han Solo was cool, funny and edgy so too was Logan in X1 and X2. Then Han mellowed in Return of the Jedi and became a comedy relief guy and a softy. So too has Logan. I like the fact that it was tossed out there that Logan might have been manipulated by Xavier as well. I don't think he was but that's one explanation. Personally though I think it's his bonding with the X-Men in the first two movies that softened him. He grew roots. Jean's death solidified those roots for him and he decided to fill her gap on the team in her memory. That's my rationalization for it anyway.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

X3 has a ton of great ideas and characters but doesn't develop them at all and that hurts the movie. It's obvious that Brett Ratner was obsessed with pacing and excitement but not with character and consistency.

Some examples:

1. Angel: His first scene he's cutting off his wings and he's clearly ashamed of his mutant status. In only his second scene he's about to be cured and out of nowhere decides he likes his wings and wants to be a mutant. Then he appears at the Xavier Institute and then appears one last time to save his father at the end of the movies. That's his entire arc. He's there! That's it. He might as well have not even been in the movie. You could literally cut every one of his scenes. The mutant cure could have been dreamed up by a faceless pharaceutical company and it wouldn't have changed the story at all. I think Angel was there to motivate Worthington Sr. into seeking the cure but there was no real arc for either Worthington so it rang totally hollow.

2. Dark Phoenix: I don't think the Dark Phoenix Saga as presented in the comics would have worked for X3 so I suppose what they offerred in X3 was a bit of a compromise and quite a lot of it works. The problem with Dark Phoenix though is that Ratner focuses on how Xavier sees her. How Magneto sees her. How Logan sees her. It never concentrates on how she sees herself and thus we're unsure if she's enjoying being Dark Phoenix or if she hates it. The comic made it clear that being evil was a turn on to her. The movie doesn't and we have to infer everything.

3. Xavier: A lot of good stuff is set up about his past but not really developed. We know that he feared Jeans potential and thus locked it away. But we don't see the toll it took on him to harm another mutant in that way. We don't see how he contrasts his actions against the new mutant cure. We know he's well meaning but he comes off as a man who raped a young girl and has spent his whole life hiding it from her and everyone else. He's quite unsympathetic and in a way that was brave of Ratner and the writers. I think the only thing that really makes his death have impact is that he's built up a lot of goodwill with the audience over the course of the first two films. If this were my first X-Men movie I'd think Xavier a cold bastard.

4. Logan: He really got the Han Solo treatment in X3. Just as in A New Hope and Empire Han Solo was cool, funny and edgy so too was Logan in X1 and X2. Then Han mellowed in Return of the Jedi and became a comedy relief guy and a softy. So too has Logan. I like the fact that it was tossed out there that Logan might have been manipulated by Xavier as well. I don't think he was but that's one explanation. Personally though I think it's his bonding with the X-Men in the first two movies that softened him. He grew roots. Jean's death solidified those roots for him and he decided to fill her gap on the team in her memory. That's my rationalization for it anyway.

Some things I agree with you on, others I don't;

1. I agree that Angel's role was way under developed. For a bit of payoff, he really should have joined the X-Men for the final battle. However, I don't agree that his role could have just been cut out. His situation with his father shows WHY someone would want to develop a cure, and it does make it a little more personal actually showing the struggle regarding it.

2. You actually bring up a really good point regarding never seeing Jean's point of view on herself, one I never thought of before, and one that could very well help the explanation of the Phoenix Saga. I think what they did was the best possible route for the realistic setting set up for these movies, but at the same time, there's something missing. Overall, I like it, I think it was executed fairly well. But what exactly is it that makes Jean Grey, the hero, the member of the X-Men, go evil? That's what I want to know more about, and it was barely briefly touched upon in Xavier's explanation about Jean to Wolverine, and in the Jean vs. Xavier scene. It's not quite enough, it could have used a little bit more I think.

3. I dunno, I was never really too shocked about the "departure" from Xavier's good guy persona, to a bit of a manipulator. I've read too many comics were Xavier pretty much does become a bastard, that it just doesn't seem out of character for me. And the whole "if this was the first X-Men" arguement is null and void, because it's NOT the first X-Men movie. If this was the first one, Jean's return wouldn't make any sense. None of it would. But there's 2 movies beforehand that establish who these characters are. "If this was the first", but it's not, it's the 3rd.

4. Again, I dunno... Aside from him running around yelling "Hold this line!", and talking about how X-Men stick together and don't like Xavier's dream die (which are ALL Cyclops moments ) I didn't view Wolverine really out of character in this film, or too drastic a departure from the previous 2, if at all.

 

[BMM]

X3 "lighter" than X2?

I think you got that backward. Nothing is darker than Dark Phoenix. I'll put her up against anything in the first 2 for "darkness".

Jean could be called the Ultra Dark Phoenix and demolecularize twice as many no-named soldiers with the best CGI available and The Last Stand still wouldn't hold a candle to the disturbing notion of watching an imprisoned young Erik Lehnsherr being ripped apart from his screaming family as he watches them being herded into a gas chamber/crematory during one of the most tragic events in human history, the Holocaust.

The opening minutes of X-Men easily trump anything in the entire trilogy in terms of darkness.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Rogue had her storyline in X1 where she was more aless the main character under Wolverine. She had an entire backstory, and she was the main focus in Magneto's plan.

It was time for some other people to step forward like Storm, Kitty, even Iceman who hadn't had a lot to do in previous movies.

But Rogue's story had just begun. Her arc was to be from frightened, lost girl to superhero. You can see her transform over the singer movies - she becomes brave enough to fly the jet and rescue the X-Men - and by the climax she has earned a costume. In X3, she is a member of the team, but goes back to the timid girl she was in X1. Ratner hit reset there almost.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Waitaminute....

You guys really believe Scott died? Am I the only one that's ever watched a movie or read a comic before? There is a rule: "If you don't see them die...they didn't". Heck....sometimes you see them die and they don't really die.

Agreed, but unless there is an X4 - which is not on the agenda currently, Scott is dead.

 

[Seen]

Some things I agree with you on, others I don't;

1. I agree that Angel's role was way under developed. For a bit of payoff, he really should have joined the X-Men for the final battle. However, I don't agree that his role could have just been cut out. His situation with his father shows WHY someone would want to develop a cure, and it does make it a little more personal actually showing the struggle regarding it.

Well, like I said, the film could have just showed a faceless pharmaceutical company or have turned the focus on Dr. Kativa Rao (a brilliant character who was tragically underused) and her motivations for developing the cure, that of medical science. Her views and opinions in Astonishing X-Men were far more compelling than anything we saw in X-Men: The Last Stand.

However, you have a point. I think if the Worthingtons were given more scenes, then perhaps we might have more insight into the emotional and psychological dynamics of the Worthingtons. I even think a few scenes with Kativa Rao and Angel, with them discussing the cure, and Angel eventually realizing that he's better off without it.

I actually devled into this with my X-Men 3 script. I gave more scenes to Angel and his father, and tried to expound on that arc to give it emotional resonance. I'd love to hear your opinions on it, how that arc, once expanded, is either improved or what not.

2. You actually bring up a really good point regarding never seeing Jean's point of view on herself, one I never thought of before, and one that could very well help the explanation of the Phoenix Saga. I think what they did was the best possible route for the realistic setting set up for these movies, but at the same time, there's something missing.

I agree. Making Jean a splitso versus an existential entity controlling her from outer space is a bit more believable. However, I think Ratner, Kinberg and Penn shot themselves in the foot by making Xavier a bit coldhearted. If he was more sympathetic, more "I had to do what I had to do; I don't like it, but what other choice did I have? I wanted to save Jean" and less "She's dangerous, get over it, I don't have to explain myself to you." I think it would've been more traumatic for Xavier to actually be saddened and remorseful that he controlled Jean, rather than being very blasé about it.

Also, another thing I changed in my script -- however, instead of Jean being a splitso, I did have an existential entity controlling her, but I just excluded all of the "outer space" elements to try and sustain it in a believable reality.

Overall, I like it, I think it was executed fairly well. But what exactly is it that makes Jean Grey, the hero, the member of the X-Men, go evil? That's what I want to know more about, and it was barely briefly touched upon in Xavier's explanation about Jean to Wolverine, and in the Jean vs. Xavier scene. It's not quite enough, it could have used a little bit more I think.

Agreed. I actually think a good explanation would have been Ann Malcolm, Jean's best friend as a child. In the novel, she dies and her death sort of opens up pandora's box for Jean. I think if that was sort of the crux, that repressed memory that trigged Jean's splitso personality disorder, there would have been more substance to Jean's arc in X3. It also would've explained why she fragmented into two distinct personalities.

3. I dunno, I was never really too shocked about the "departure" from Xavier's good guy persona, to a bit of a manipulator. I've read too many comics were Xavier pretty much does become a bastard, that it just doesn't seem out of character for me.

Well, it's out-of-character from the first two movies, and I think as much as these films stem from comic-books, they're adaptations. You shouldn't need to read a comic-book to understand a movie version. They're two totally different mediums. So for audiences with just the first two films as a backhistory, Xavier comes across as oddly cold-hearted.

And the whole "if this was the first X-Men" arguement is null and void, because it's NOT the first X-Men movie. If this was the first one, Jean's return wouldn't make any sense. None of it would. But there's 2 movies beforehand that establish who these characters are. "If this was the first", but it's not, it's the 3rd.

In Wizard magazine Hugh Jackman said that X-Men: The Last Stand is a standalone story, which would imply that you wouldn't need to recall the previous two movies to understand this one. So if someone were to watch this movie without watching the last two movies (which my ex-girlfriend did) then Xavier would come across as a cold-hearted bastard.

4. Again, I dunno... Aside from him running around yelling "Hold this line!", and talking about how X-Men stick together and don't like Xavier's dream die (which are ALL Cyclops moments ) I didn't view Wolverine really out of character in this film, or too drastic a departure from the previous 2, if at all.

I agree that those were all Cyclops' moments. Moments that I include in my script. But Logan was a bit of a softie in this one, from his interactions with Jean and so forth. Plus Wolverine was never a leader in the comics, and would rather have Storm and Beast do all of the leading.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Agreed. I actually think a good explanation would have been Ann Malcolm, Jean's best friend as a child. In the novel, she dies and her death sort of opens up pandora's box for Jean. I think if that was sort of the crux, that repressed memory that trigged Jean's splitso personality disorder, there would have been more substance to Jean's arc in X3. It also would've explained why she fragmented into two distinct personalities.

Very good point.

When I was working on my fan script for X-Men 3 (before the movie came out... a script which I never finished), the death of her childhood friend was the catalist for the "darkness". That might have been that "something" that was missing, that "something" that could have changed everything, was to make that flashback, the flashback to Jean's friend dying, and how that impacted her, and how her feeling Anne's mind with her telepathy led to her dark and twisted persona, one that Xavier needed to lock up with the mental barriers to help the "real" Jean Grey become herself again.

Instead, we're left with a "Jean died, she came back because she never really died as her powers kept her alive, and I created psychic blocks that created a duel personality that I needed to cage, that was set free when Jean Grey 'died' at Alkali Lake, and this persona is one full of desire and rage."

The explanation is there. It works. It just needs a little bit more to it. And whether it's Anne or someone else, I think you might be spot on with your "inner view of myself" idea of Jean and how she sees herself, along with how Xavier, Magneto, and Wolverine see her.

Well, it's out-of-character from the first two movies, and I think as much as these films stem from comic-books, they're adaptations. You shouldn't need to read a comic-book to understand a movie version. They're two totally different mediums. So for audiences with just the first two films as a backhistory, Xavier comes across as oddly cold-hearted.

I get what you're saying, I guess I just don't see it as that drastic of a deviation. There is a hint of "manipulation" in X2 when it's revealed that Xavier knows more about Wolverine's past than he's letting on. Then you have Xavier, who is in a very extreme situation... he's lost one of his original, most beloved pupils, and she has returned. He knows how dangerous she can be, and now the safeguards he put in place to protect her from herself have been destroyed, and he knows the potential for danger. It's a bit of a dire situation, and not one were he can really sugarcoat what's going on.

Then, to top it all off, he's being second guessed by Wolverine, essentially an outsider, one who came from the outside, and is not part of the family, not in the way that Storm, Cyclops, Beast, Jean (before she died) all are. I imagine that if the conversation were with Cyclops, Beast, or Storm, it'd be totally different. I see it as more of a "Who are you to come into my house and question my methods?" type of thing, rather than a "Well, I'm just going to be a ******** now" kind of thing.

Then for a comic book fan, combine that with the knowledge that Xavier has been a manipulative prick in the comics, and it's just kind of like "Yup, that's Xavier"

I understand what you're saying, I think we just interpret it differently.

In Wizard magazine Hugh Jackman said that X-Men: The Last Stand is a standalone story, which would imply that you wouldn't need to recall the previous two movies to understand this one. So if someone were to watch this movie without watching the last two movies (which my ex-girlfriend did) then Xavier would come across as a cold-hearted bastard.

(Not to knock you, no offense intended) That's total B.S.

X-Men: The Last Stand is NOT a stand alone movie, no matter how you look at it. It's foundation is built off of story arcs that have been planted in X-Men, and X2, the movies that came before it. If you haven't seen X-Men and X2, then you have no idea why Magneto is the terrorist, why this cure is such a threat to him. If you haven't seen the previous movies, you have no idea why Jean is rising. And you have no idea why Scott being there during her resurrection, and their interaction, is so emotional, and important. You have no idea why Wolverine is willing to die to save her.

You have to understand that this is X-Men 3 and you can't possibly go into this movie expecting to be able to fully understand it without seeing the first 2.

Yes, it's stand alone in the fact that it has a conflict all it's own, as the cure story arc and all of that is stricly X-Men: The Last Stand. But it's not stand alone in the fact that this is the closing chapter of a trilogy. It's climax is the climax of story and character arcs that have been developing for 2 movies prior to this one.

If you haven't seen the first 2, then Magneto is a mindless terrorist, Cyclops is a crybaby (no sarcastic remarks about the first 2 movies, because Cyclops was very prominent in X-Men, and was pretty hardcore in X2, only being a "crybaby" when he watched the woman he loved die right in front of his very eyes...), Iceman is a cheating, unfaithful prick...

Simply put, X-Men: The Last Stand is NOT a stand alone film, just as none of these films are stand alone films, no matter how much Hugh Jackman says in magazine articles that it is. It's the 3rd chapter in a trilogy and must be treated as such. And therefore, to understand character's actions in this film, you have to see the previous films to see what their motivation might be for them.

 

[Seen]

Very good point.

When I was working on my fan script for X-Men 3 (before the movie came out... a script which I never finished), the death of her childhood friend was the catalist for the "darkness". That might have been that "something" that was missing, that "something" that could have changed everything, was to make that flashback, the flashback to Jean's friend dying, and how that impacted her, and how her feeling Anne's mind with her telepathy led to her dark and twisted persona, one that Xavier needed to lock up with the mental barriers to help the "real" Jean Grey become herself again.

I actually included that in my fan script too (how weird, eh? ) but I actually deleted a few of those scenes out because my script was getting too long. I might reinsert them, now that you've brought this very good point up.

I'd love to read your fan script, too, if you ever get around to finishing it.

Instead, we're left with a "Jean died, she came back because she never really died as her powers kept her alive, and I created psychic blocks that created a duel personality that I needed to cage, that was set free when Jean Grey 'died' at Alkali Lake, and this persona is one full of desire and rage."

The explanation is there. It works. It just needs a little bit more to it. And whether it's Anne or someone else, I think you might be spot on with your "inner view of myself" idea of Jean and how she sees herself, along with how Xavier, Magneto, and Wolverine see her.

Agreed. It worked rather well actually. But like you said, it needed more "meat".

I get what you're saying, I guess I just don't see it as that drastic of a deviation. There is a hint of "manipulation" in X2 when it's revealed that Xavier knows more about Wolverine's past than he's letting on.

Ohhh, I didn't realize that. Good point. Xavier was sort of dangling information over Wolverine's head. And I don't buy that he thinks "a mind needs to discover things for itself". He just didn't want to tell Wolverine.

Good point.

Then you have Xavier, who is in a very extreme situation... he's lost one of his original, most beloved pupils, and she has returned. He knows how dangerous she can be, and now the safeguards he put in place to protect her from herself have been destroyed, and he knows the potential for danger. It's a bit of a dire situation, and not one were he can really sugarcoat what's going on.

Then, to top it all off, he's being second guessed by Wolverine, essentially an outsider, one who came from the outside, and is not part of the family, not in the way that Storm, Cyclops, Beast, Jean (before she died) all are. I imagine that if the conversation were with Cyclops, Beast, or Storm, it'd be totally different. I see it as more of a "Who are you to come into my house and question my methods?" type of thing, rather than a "Well, I'm just going to be a ******** now" kind of thing.

Good point. I can see that.

Then for a comic book fan, combine that with the knowledge that Xavier has been a manipulative prick in the comics, and it's just kind of like "Yup, that's Xavier"

I understand what you're saying, I think we just interpret it differently.

No, I think you've shed clear a lot of good points. I'm a bit more 50/50 now, thanks to you.

(Not to knock you, no offense intended) That's total B.S.

X-Men: The Last Stand is NOT a stand alone movie, no matter how you look at it. It's foundation is built off of story arcs that have been planted in X-Men, and X2, the movies that came before it. If you haven't seen X-Men and X2, then you have no idea why Magneto is the terrorist, why this cure is such a threat to him. If you haven't seen the previous movies, you have no idea why Jean is rising. And you have no idea why Scott being there during her resurrection, and their interaction, is so emotional, and important. You have no idea why Wolverine is willing to die to save her.

You have to understand that this is X-Men 3 and you can't possibly go into this movie expecting to be able to fully understand it without seeing the first 2.

Yes, it's stand alone in the fact that it has a conflict all it's own, as the cure story arc and all of that is stricly X-Men: The Last Stand. But it's not stand alone in the fact that this is the closing chapter of a trilogy. It's climax is the climax of story and character arcs that have been developing for 2 movies prior to this one.

If you haven't seen the first 2, then Magneto is a mindless terrorist, Cyclops is a crybaby (no sarcastic remarks about the first 2 movies, because Cyclops was very prominent in X-Men, and was pretty hardcore in X2, only being a "crybaby" when he watched the woman he loved die right in front of his very eyes...), Iceman is a cheating, unfaithful prick...

Simply put, X-Men: The Last Stand is NOT a stand alone film, just as none of these films are stand alone films, no matter how much Hugh Jackman says in magazine articles that it is. It's the 3rd chapter in a trilogy and must be treated as such. And therefore, to understand character's actions in this film, you have to see the previous films to see what their motivation might be for them.

I agree that it's not a stand alone film. I can see a first sequel trying to stand alone, but by the third, if you aren't sure what it is, then you need to start watching the ones that came before it.

 

[XCharlieX]

I get what you're saying, I guess I just don't see it as that drastic of a deviation. There is a hint of "manipulation" in X2 when it's revealed that Xavier knows more about Wolverine's past than he's letting on.

The topic about where xavier got his x jet from also raises some questions as to Xaviers character. I still point out that x-men are pretty much vigilantes under commonlaw.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I still point out that x-men are pretty much vigilantes under commonlaw.

Pretty much. But so are all superheroes...

Batman, Spiderman, X-Men, Superman, Punisher... all of them, taking the law into their own hands in one way or another. All of them are vigilantes. Despite their intentions, not one of them is doing a legal act by going after the bad guys.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Good point. I can see that.



No, I think you've shed clear a lot of good points. I'm a bit more 50/50 now, thanks to you.

Cool, man!

My point isn't to change anybody's minds.

It's just, as I accomplished with you, to get them to see where I'm coming from. To say "I don't agree with your view, but I see where you're coming from."

As far as both of us including that element in our script... well, I think when we heard about a Jean flashback scene, all of us were thinking about her friend, and that whole sequence. I don't think that any of us really expected "Hi, I'm Charles Xavier, you're coming to my school now so you can control your powers."

The scene wasn't bad... it's just one of those "Here's a great chance to implement some true backstory from the source material" and it wasn't really capitolized upon.

I won't ever finish the script... I only wrote maybe 2 scenes, and then stopped. I'm now working on my X-Men 4 script (available through the link in my sig ) although I'm even lagging on that...

But if you would like to see my Jean flashback scene, I'll be more than happy to post it, assuming I still have it on my computer (which I believe I do, but you never know)

 

[ultimatefan]

X3 has a ton of great ideas and characters but doesn't develop them at all and that hurts the movie. It's obvious that Brett Ratner was obsessed with pacing and excitement but not with character and consistency.

Some examples:

1. Angel: His first scene he's cutting off his wings and he's clearly ashamed of his mutant status. In only his second scene he's about to be cured and out of nowhere decides he likes his wings and wants to be a mutant. Then he appears at the Xavier Institute and then appears one last time to save his father at the end of the movies. That's his entire arc. He's there! That's it. He might as well have not even been in the movie. You could literally cut every one of his scenes. The mutant cure could have been dreamed up by a faceless pharaceutical company and it wouldn't have changed the story at all. I think Angel was there to motivate Worthington Sr. into seeking the cure but there was no real arc for either Worthington so it rang totally hollow.

2. Dark Phoenix: I don't think the Dark Phoenix Saga as presented in the comics would have worked for X3 so I suppose what they offerred in X3 was a bit of a compromise and quite a lot of it works. The problem with Dark Phoenix though is that Ratner focuses on how Xavier sees her. How Magneto sees her. How Logan sees her. It never concentrates on how she sees herself and thus we're unsure if she's enjoying being Dark Phoenix or if she hates it. The comic made it clear that being evil was a turn on to her. The movie doesn't and we have to infer everything.

3. Xavier: A lot of good stuff is set up about his past but not really developed. We know that he feared Jeans potential and thus locked it away. But we don't see the toll it took on him to harm another mutant in that way. We don't see how he contrasts his actions against the new mutant cure. We know he's well meaning but he comes off as a man who raped a young girl and has spent his whole life hiding it from her and everyone else. He's quite unsympathetic and in a way that was brave of Ratner and the writers. I think the only thing that really makes his death have impact is that he's built up a lot of goodwill with the audience over the course of the first two films. If this were my first X-Men movie I'd think Xavier a cold bastard.

4. Logan: He really got the Han Solo treatment in X3. Just as in A New Hope and Empire Han Solo was cool, funny and edgy so too was Logan in X1 and X2. Then Han mellowed in Return of the Jedi and became a comedy relief guy and a softy. So too has Logan. I like the fact that it was tossed out there that Logan might have been manipulated by Xavier as well. I don't think he was but that's one explanation. Personally though I think it's his bonding with the X-Men in the first two movies that softened him. He grew roots. Jean's death solidified those roots for him and he decided to fill her gap on the team in her memory. That's my rationalization for it anyway.

For Angel, he´s not so much ashamed of being a mutant as he is afraid of his father´s reaction, IMO. But I agree the character could have been more developed.

To me the movie makes it clear that in her conscious mind Jean hates being Phoenix, that Phoenix is a separate entity who can´t control rage, lust, etc.

I think the movie shows that Xavier clearly chose the lesser of two evils, he´s questioned by Wolvie for what he did, but the consequences of Phoenix being unleashed proved he was right.