The Dark Knight Was Batman in this movie?

[The Chris]

I'm not a big fan of Rachel.

Although i hated her in the first movie, i think it was just katie's take on her.

I actually felt kinda sorry for her in this movie.

Oh yeah, I mean sometimes she can get on my nerves (like when Bruce was toasting Harvey) but she was a good person. Only wanted what was best for Gotham and her friends. I know my father hated her and was glad she was dead (I was like what!?), but nobody should go out like that. That was depressing, and it set this film apart from the rest of the genre. You see that kind of death in a scorsese movie.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Your comment is so off the mark, actually part of the problem with Batman in the movie is he was TOO confident, "Batman has no limits". It´s stated pretty clearly that he felt like Rachel might have died because of him. You wanted what, that he sat around moping a lot, you´d probably have complained about that as well.

to be a little more clear on what i was saying: the batman in this film was, for lack of better words, looking for and expecting the day where he wouldnt need to be batman. rather than recognizing the fact that accomplishing his mission is actually an impossibility, and despite knowing that, he'd still always be out there doing what he set out to do. accepting that there is no real end to batman. this is what he is now. this is what he will likely be till he dies. rather than, in the film, where he was pretty much looking for a way out of being batman. and to me, that show a lack of confidence, or maybe more appropriately, inspiration to be batman.

And he did feel guilty. I forgot the exact line, but it was something like, "Did I bring this upon her?" And then he moved straight onwards, focusing on what he would have to do to catch the Joker.

yeah, that seemed like a totally appropriate reaction to his life long friend and love of his life being blown up. her death seemed to have a pretty minimal effect on him. like many things in the movie, things werent given their appropriate focus and attention because there were so many things going on that needed attention.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

there's a part in "a death in the family" where it is implied that the joker knows who batman is so maybe team nolan implied it as well... But i don't really think the joker really cares who batman is... since he's just "too much fun"

The pure reaction of bruce when he says that is enough for me to realise it.

I can't recall but doesn't he say something about love triangle? Rachel's involvement for me was definitely a GREEN GOBLIN ESQUE trial the joker set out for batman to choose between the heart and gotham.

There would be no point even doing that unless he knew of their connection. Again if you mirror those scenes with the scenes from spiderman 1, then you'll see where i'm going with this

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

yeah, that seemed like a totally appropriate reaction to his life long friend and love of his life being blown up. her death seemed to have a pretty minimal effect on him. like many things in the movie, things werent given their appropriate focus and attention because there were so many things going on that needed attention.

My girlfriend actually brought this point up in the reverse.

Considering bruce's relationship to rachel in his mind was just as strong (if not stronger than harvey's since he was willing to get out of being bats) and he had known her all his life, his reaction to her death was nothing, especially knowing the joker had tricked him into saving harvey instead.

He lost far more than harvey did in that incident yet its harvey that goes crazy and not bats.

 

[Motown Marvel]

My girlfriend actually brought this point up in the reverse.

Considering bruce's relationship to rachel in his mind was just as strong (if not stronger than harvey's since he was willing to get out of being bats) and he had known her all his life, his reaction to her death was nothing, especially knowing the joker had tricked him into saving harvey instead.

He lost far more than harvey did in that incident yet its harvey that goes crazy and not bats.

i was being sarcastic when i said his reaction to rachel's death was appropriate. my apologies that i didnt make that clear. but yeah, he hardly reacted to it...which was....not right.

 

[Phsycology]

I'm pretty sure that at one point in the interrogation scene, the Joker asks if Dent knows about their kiss, which I took to imply Rachel and Bruce's kiss in his penthouse.....

big windows anyone???

 

[Phsycology]

i was being sarcastic when i said his reaction to rachel's death was appropriate. my apologies that i didnt make that clear. but yeah, he hardly reacted to it...which was....not right.

But surely, he had no time to greave as the Joker was still running loose and he had much more to do to help other people, before he could think about himself, which is the whole morality of Batman: Others before himself.

 

[ultimatefan]

to be a little more clear on what i was saying: the batman in this film was, for lack of better words, looking for and expecting the day where he wouldnt need to be batman. rather than recognizing the fact that accomplishing his mission is actually an impossibility, and despite knowing that, he'd still always be out there doing what he set out to do. accepting that there is no real end to batman. this is what he is now. this is what he will likely be till he dies. rather than, in the film, where he was pretty much looking for a way out of being batman. and to me, that show a lack of confidence, or maybe more appropriately, inspiration to be batman.




yeah, that seemed like a totally appropriate reaction to his life long friend and love of his life being blown up. her death seemed to have a pretty minimal effect on him. like many things in the movie, things werent given their appropriate focus and attention because there were so many things going on that needed attention.

It has been portrayed in comics a number of times, and is only a perfectly reasonable notion, that Bruce longs for the day Batman is no longer necessary. Bruce is Batman because he feels he has to be, but in TDK he saw in Harvey an opportunity for Gotham to become a safer, better city through legal ways, with no need of a masked vigilante, which is not an impossibility. It was made impossible by the circumstances, but it´s a perfectly understandable desire and the perfect one for his arc with Joker and Harvey in the movie.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with Batman having self-confidence or not, by the way.

Bruce had to move on, the Joker was at large, causing mayhem and destruction. If he was moping a lot on her death, you´d complain that he was portrayed as a whiney moper. This is what Batman does, he puts his personal feelings aside and keeps going when Gotham´s in trouble.

 

[ultimatefan]

My girlfriend actually brought this point up in the reverse.

Considering bruce's relationship to rachel in his mind was just as strong (if not stronger than harvey's since he was willing to get out of being bats) and he had known her all his life, his reaction to her death was nothing, especially knowing the joker had tricked him into saving harvey instead.

He lost far more than harvey did in that incident yet its harvey that goes crazy and not bats.

There was no time for him to sit around feeling sorry for her death, Joker was at large, causing mayhem and destruction, that´s what Batman does, he shakes the dust and keeps going, no matter what his personal feelings are.

 

[Fenrir]

I'm pretty sure that at one point in the interrogation scene, the Joker asks if Dent knows about their kiss, which I took to imply Rachel and Bruce's kiss in his penthouse.....

big windows anyone???

Uhhh, wrong. The Joker only says "Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?".

And no, The Joker does not know Bruce is Batman. Nor does he want to know. Sure, in the beginning of the film he demands that Batman take off his mask, but when he saw what Batman really is (a freak like him), he becomes obsessed with him. To the point that the only thing that matters to him is Batman and how to challenge him. You can clearly see the earnestness in his lines when he says "don't talk like you're one of them, you're not! To them you're just a freak, like me! They need you now but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper". That's why he wanted Reese dead. He doesn't want anyone knowing the true identity of the Batman, including himself. He sees Batman as the ying to his yang, his only counterpart in a world where he finds himself alone.

At best, he caught the fact that Batman cared about Rachel when he jumped after her, but he never bothered with anything else. It's an aspect of the character that has also been touched upon in the comics. The Joker doesn't give a damn about the true identity of Batman.

 

[Phsycology]

So he did! I compeltely forgot about him not wanting Reece to "spoilt it" for him.

Uhhh, wrong. The Joker only says "Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?".

And no, The Joker does not know Bruce is Batman. Nor does he want to know. Sure, in the beginning of the film he demands that Batman take off his mask, but when he saw what Batman really is (a freak like him), he becomes obsessed with him. To the point that the only thing that matters to him is Batman and how to challenge him. You can clearly see the earnestness in his lines when he says "don't talk like you're one of them, you're not! To them you're just a freak, like me! They need you now but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper". That's why he wanted Reese dead. He doesn't want anyone knowing the true identity of the Batman, including himself. He sees Batman as the ying to his yang, his only counterpart in a world where he finds himself alone.

At best, he caught the fact that Batman cared about Rachel when he jumped after her, but he never bothered with anything else. It's an aspect of the character that has also been touched upon in the comics. The Joker doesn't give a damn about the true identity of Batman.

 

[Fenrir]

There was no time for him to sit around feeling sorry for her death, Joker was at large, causing mayhem and destruction, that´s what Batman does, he shakes the dust and keeps going, no matter what his personal feelings are.

Exactly. I don't understand these guys wanting to see Batman moping and grieving for someone and then demanding that they want to see a more confident Batman. Bruce felt responsible for her death, but at the same time, he knew he did everything in his power to save her. Harvey went ballistic because he was powerless to take action and felt that he was the only real victim in The Joker's plot.

I love the fact that Bruce regains his focus and is quick on his feet to stop The Joker. In fact, if you notice, Rachel's death provides him with a newfound vigor and determination in stopping The Joker. You can clearly see it in his eyes when he sternly asks Alfred "that bandit in the forest in Burma, did you catch him, how?". That's what Batman is all about. He doesn't sit around crying over his loss. But rather he takes his pain and channels it towards a constructive purpose.

 

[Eggyman]

Exactly. I don't understand these guys wanting to see Batman moping and grieving for someone and then demanding that they want to see a more confident Batman. Bruce felt responsible for her death, but at the same time, he knew he did everything in his power to save her. Harvey went ballistic because he was powerless to take action and felt that he was the only real victim in The Joker's plot.

I love the fact that Bruce regains his focus and is quick on his feet to stop The Joker. In fact, if you notice, Rachel's death provides him with a newfound vigor and determination in stopping The Joker. You can clearly see it in his eyes when he sternly asks Alfred "that bandit in the forest in Burma, did you catch him, how?". That's what Batman is all about. He doesn't sit around crying over his loss. But rather he takes his pain and channels it towards a constructive purpose.

Exactly. If we look at who he is and how he came to be, we can see that he is a man of action. If he wasn't we would have no Batman.

 

[Anita18]

Exactly. If we look at who he is and how he came to be, we can see that he is a man of action. If he wasn't we would have no Batman.

from me too.

For him, Rachel's death means he NEEDS to catch the Joker for good, so her death wouldn't be just another tick mark on the Joker's list. That's why he asks Alfred what it would take. What else can he do?

Some people just don't stop functioning and cry for days when someone close to them dies. They go to work, and that's how they deal. It's possible Nolan himself holds this point of view, considering his reaction when Heath died - he focused on making Heath's last film a proper legacy, because it's all he could do.

 

[stargazer]

just because a character is confident doesnt mean he's void of conflict. and i dont think he felt guilty about rachel's death. in fact, i dont know what he felt, he didnt really react much to it in the movie.

I noticed that as well! And it was disappointing, I was expecting more emotion from Bale in that scene. I like him as an actor, and I know he is capable of more, and that's why his reaction to her death disappointed me so much.

And to answer the thread, yeah, Batman was definitely outshadowed by most other characters in the film, especially Dent and Joker. Plus Bale's performance felt kinda boring to me in most of the movie, and his Batman voice is annoying.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I noticed that as well! And it was disappointing, I was expecting more emotion from Bale in that scene. I like him as an actor, and I know he is capable of more, and that's why his reaction to her death disappointed me so much.

I was disappointed with his reaction as well. It was kind of glossed over

 

[stargazer]

the batman character in TDK definitely felt more sidelined and on auto pilot. like, with all the focus and effort they put into making the joker awesome, they were spent when it came time to focus on batman and give his character his due effort.

Agreed.

 

[Motown Marvel]

But surely, he had no time to greave as the Joker was still running loose and he had much more to do to help other people, before he could think about himself, which is the whole morality of Batman: Others before himself.

no time to grieve? he didnt even shed a frigging tear!!! this was the love of his life and his longest known friendship!! time has nothing to do with it. it'd be impossible NOT to have some reaction to it. instead he sat in a chair and was like "aw man, thats a bummer."

It has been portrayed in comics a number of times, and is only a perfectly reasonable notion, that Bruce longs for the day Batman is no longer necessary. Bruce is Batman because he feels he has to be, but in TDK he saw in Harvey an opportunity for Gotham to become a safer, better city through legal ways, with no need of a masked vigilante, which is not an impossibility. It was made impossible by the circumstances, but it´s a perfectly understandable desire and the perfect one for his arc with Joker and Harvey in the movie.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with Batman having self-confidence or not, by the way.

Bruce had to move on, the Joker was at large, causing mayhem and destruction. If he was moping a lot on her death, you´d complain that he was portrayed as a whiney moper. This is what Batman does, he puts his personal feelings aside and keeps going when Gotham´s in trouble.

batman would never put his fill faith in one man to clean up gotham, other than himself. he should of seen harvey as an alley to work one side of the crusade, while he works the side that harvey's job doesnt allow him too. batman just seemed to have a real lack of inspiration in the film.

theres a difference between moping and grieving. moping would be bruce sitting around feeling impotent about being batman because he couldnt even save rachel. but seriously, he didnt even cry, he didnt get pissed, he didnt react at all. i was hoping for him to be driven further into the darkness, driven by the rage, and becoming more obsessive and methodical.

 

[stargazer]

yeah, that seemed like a totally appropriate reaction to his life long friend and love of his life being blown up. her death seemed to have a pretty minimal effect on him. like many things in the movie, things werent given their appropriate focus and attention because there were so many things going on that needed attention.

Man, I so agree with you!

Bruce had to move on, the Joker was at large, causing mayhem and destruction. If he was moping a lot on her death, you´d complain that he was portrayed as a whiney moper. This is what Batman does, he puts his personal feelings aside and keeps going when Gotham´s in trouble.

I don't think we wanted to see him crying like Peter in Spidey 3, we just wanted Bruce to show a little more emotion. He is after all a human being, not a rock. I'm ok with Bruce showing a little more emotion and human feelings, especially after the death of his lifelong friend and love interest (Rachel). This is a 'realistic' take on the Batman after all, no?

 

[MBonez12]

^i agree. i think dent's reaction was perfect, and while wayne's reaction shouldnt have been an exact replica, there should have been at least a little more remorse, and even some anger that gcpd didnt get there in time to save her

 

[Phsycology]

no time to grieve? he didnt even shed a frigging tear!!! this was the love of his life and his longest known friendship!! time has nothing to do with it. it'd be impossible NOT to have some reaction to it. instead he sat in a chair and was like "aw man, thats a bummer."

but do you not think that stopping the Joker would have been his main priority, since he's a superhero and all??? You know, that's kinda like.....there job!

If i was him (OMFG that would be amazing!!! ) I would have gotten on with it and taken out the Joker, then after the whole episode with Dent was over, I would have stopped and her death would have hit me.......THEN I would grieve.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don't think we wanted to see him crying like Peter in Spidey 3, we just wanted Bruce to show a little more emotion. He is after all a human being, not a rock. I'm ok with Bruce showing a little more emotion and human feelings, especially after the death of his lifelong friend and love interest (Rachel). This is a 'realistic' take on the Batman after all, no?

You're on.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Exactly. I don't understand these guys wanting to see Batman moping and grieving for someone and then demanding that they want to see a more confident Batman. Bruce felt responsible for her death, but at the same time, he knew he did everything in his power to save her. Harvey went ballistic because he was powerless to take action and felt that he was the only real victim in The Joker's plot.

I love the fact that Bruce regains his focus and is quick on his feet to stop The Joker. In fact, if you notice, Rachel's death provides him with a newfound vigor and determination in stopping The Joker. You can clearly see it in his eyes when he sternly asks Alfred "that bandit in the forest in Burma, did you catch him, how?". That's what Batman is all about. He doesn't sit around crying over his loss. But rather he takes his pain and channels it towards a constructive purpose.

They want to see Batman doing this over Rachel's death:

Personally, I would rather do without! Sometimes less is more, and I loved the way they handled Bruce's grieving for Rachel. He was obviously upset, but they didn't get over the top with it with waterfalls coming from his eyes and snot running down his nose. And Alfred was there not only to encourage him and to console him, but to remind him of his mission and what Rachel would have wanted. So yeah, I agree with you completely.

 

[The Chris]

I think the scene with him and alfred sufficed for grief. We've seen how Bruce doesn't let his emotions run him as much as others and in turn uses it, so I thought it was fine. Dent was already established as a much more emotional person with his anger, so I can see him having the reaction he had and not bruce.

 

[Bat-Mite]

theres a difference between moping and grieving. moping would be bruce sitting around feeling impotent about being batman because he couldnt even save rachel. but seriously, he didnt even cry, he didnt get pissed, he didnt react at all. i was hoping for him to be driven further into the darkness, driven by the rage, and becoming more obsessive and methodical.

He did cry. He wasn't wailing or dramatically sobbing, but he was crying in that scene where he was sitting around with his mask off. And it was pretty obvious he was crying too. And I saw him using a computer to spy on all of Gotham just so he could take down one man. I don't see how you can say that's not obsessive or methodical. Driven further into the darkness? I thought his final scenes with Harvey and Gordon depicted that rather well.