Revenge of the Fallen Was Optimus a little TOO brutal in this?

[protocida]

I prefered Transformers's Prime.

 

[Mr. Earle]

"Only a Prime can defeat me" is supposed to accomplish two things:

1. Point out that The Fallen fears Prime.
2. Make you wonder what he's talking about, so that when you SEE it, it makes sense.

It didnt make sense to me. Because it just happened. There was nothing special. I can only understand it the way Marvin looks at it, that the Fallen is inherently weak to primes. Thats all. Because Bumblebee could have just as easily skinned his face. So yeah, the Fallen said so but Bay didnt explain why it matters to be a Prime. Its the same as saying that it matters to be painted red. Again, unless you go with Marvin's explanation.

As for the hyperbole, i use some but not so much.

Also, here is a page citing michael bay who refers to the fallen as "apocalyptic". Not his machine or his plan. The Fallen himself.
http://betal.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/transformersrevenge-of-the-fallenupcoming-movies/
(its about 3-4 paragraphs before the end of the article). Its the best i could do right now.
So anyway, he wasnt really apocalyptic now was he?

 

[dark_b]

i think they are the same just in different situations.

 

[Marvin]

Now, there was a video in the VFX thread where an ILM guy was explaining that when they were planning the forest scene with Bay, his only request was that he wanted Prime to do that move on Grindor. Not, the "i take you all on", but the way he would kill Grindor. I liked that move, it showed how much he owned Grindor but it seems to me like Bay just thought it was cool and wanted it in no matter what. That gives a clue about the way he thinks. He wanted a spectacular death for the Fallen so he did all this gory stuff on him no matter what that would mean for Prime. "Character" is a word unknown to Bay.
...

So when he decapitated Bonecrusher, i had no problems. I saw that noble "person" doing what needed to be done. He killed the enemy with a mortal blow. But what did i get in ROTF? Prime was just a killing machine that annihilated everyone in his path. The only times that i barely.... barely got a flash of the real Prime is when he says "fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing" and when he said that freedom was our right and that they would leave if the goverment asked. He sounded like the wise and just Prime i know and love.

The rest of the movie, he executed someone and he unnecessary skinned the Fallen's face with the quote "give me your face". In other words, i didnt see much of Prime.

WonderWoman is a peace ambassador from a peaceful island of beautiful woman

she'd die for peace,

now the fact that she's an amazonian worrior means she'll lick the blood of her sword if the camera shot calls for it lol

it's wars times, he's a worrior, go read a captain america comic, he's a soldier and thus has a different set of morals it seems

point being, everything optimus did was in the fight for peace, and he never instigated the fight.
he is also incredible disgusted with his enemies at this point in the game


lastly, check out optimus' blades by the time he rips grindors face apart, they are reduced to rusted hooks wereas in the beginning of the fight they were heated power scalpels.

lastly you speak of character, every single word Optimus said in that forest scene was more optimus than i've seen in the past 25 years.

 

[Bren]

Well, I thought Prime was too brutal and out of character in this film, and that the Fallen was depicted as too weak. They (Bay, writers whatever) did not flesh out why only a Prime could defeat him.

A lot of people here say, 'leave your brain at home' to justify enjoying this film; if that's the case then Mr. Earle is (more) correct because you just look at a jetpacked Prime beating the Fallen, and think that a jetpacked Megatron could also beat him too.

But on topic, Prime in this film reminded me (a little) of Rhinox in the episode he 'turns' into a predacon. Physically he's capable of beating the tar out of everyone, but his normal personality doesn't allow him the ruthlessness and brutality to fight like that. To me, Prime's the same. Remove his compassionate personality and he'll pretty much wipe out anything that moves.... but then he's not the normal Prime to me.

 

[Mr. Earle]

WonderWoman is a peace ambassador from a peaceful island of beautiful woman

she'd die for peace,

now the fact that she's an amazonian worrior means she'll lick the blood of her sword if the camera shot calls for it lol

it's wars times, he's a worrior, go read a captain america comic, he's a soldier and thus has a different set of morals it seems

point being, everything optimus did was in the fight for peace, and he never instigated the fight.
he is also incredible disgusted with his enemies at this point in the game

But that's the whole point. Its Prime. Not Rambo. Prime is benevolent, he is just, he is noble. He will do the right thing no matter what. His greatest enemy, the robot that betrayed him and slaughtered his race died and he felt remorse for his "brother". I mean, isnt that why we love Prime? Because of his noble feelings? Every time he is on screen he gains our respect with his behaviour and feelings and not his fists. He should be a moral beacon out there, not a soldiers that has had enough of megatron's **** and goes berserk. He was a paragon of virtue back when i was a kid and he should be one for kids nowadays as well.
I didnt mind him being a soldier, killing and stabbing and decapitating. I minded that he did gory stuff for no apparent reason, he immorally executed a prisoner and he had no character in the film.

lastly, check out optimus' blades by the time he rips grindors face apart, they are reduced to rusted hooks wereas in the beginning of the fight they were heated power scalpels.

I didnt have any problem with what he did. Also, the reason he had no blades in the end was because he threw them at Grindor. He threw the blades but the metal part that held them, the part that is not heated remained so he used it to rip his face apart.

lastly you speak of character, every single word Optimus said in that forest scene was more optimus than i've seen in the past 25 years.

"You'll never stop at one. I ll take you all on", "Piece of tin", "Sam run". Very deep stuff right there!

 

[The Guard]

So when he decapitated Bonecrusher, i had no problems. I saw that noble "person" doing what needed to be done. He killed the enemy with a mortal blow. But what did i get in ROTF? Prime was just a killing machine that annihilated everyone in his path. The only times that i barely.... barely got a flash of the real Prime is when he says "fate rarely calls upon us at a moment of our choosing" and when he said that freedom was our right and that they would leave if the goverment asked. He sounded like the wise and just Prime i know and love.

So between the scene with the government, Prime's graveyard scene with Sam, and the final sequence, you basically get exactly the same amount of wise Prime as the first movie, which you liked, but here it's not enough because...why?

It didnt make sense to me. Because it just happened. There was nothing special.

I am baffled as to how you can look at what Prime is doing...and call that "nothing special". We have not seen combat moves approaching that skill level in this franchise yet, but apparently it's "nothing special" because he's not using a magic sword or something? So it's nothing special that he combined with a fallen comrade and went bouncing around like he was on Transformer crack?

Also, here is a page citing michael bay who refers to the fallen as "apocalyptic". Not his machine or his plan. The Fallen himself.
http://betal.wordpress.com/2009/01/2...coming-movies/
(its about 3-4 paragraphs before the end of the article). Its the best i could do right now.
So anyway, he wasnt really apocalyptic now was he?

The Fallen. He is based on a character introduced in the second Transformers: The War Within comic book (2003). He was one of the original thirteen Transformers, and became a servant of Unicron. Bay described the Fallen as “apocalyptic”.

We've been through this already, so I'll just repost what I said last time, because it still applies, whether it's involving The Fallen's plan or The Fallen himself:

Do you know what "apocalyptic" means?

It means "Of, or relating to an apocalypse; Portending future disaster, devastation and doom; Revelatory or prophetic"

The Fallen clearly was these things. He wanted to kill all life on the Earth by destroying the damn Sun, and had been plotting it. He pointed out his plan, treated it like a damn prophecy, as did the Decepticons, and he was clearly going to destroy all life on the Earth, which is "an apocalypse". That is apocalyptic by definition.

 

[Mr. Earle]

lastly you speak of character, every single word Optimus said in that forest scene was more optimus than i've seen in the past 25 years.

Listen at 2:18. Listen to his music theme, listen to Prime's speech. This is what Prime is about.
[YT]aJKGAZO4beI&feature[/YT]

 

[Marvin]

But that's the whole point. Its Prime. Not Rambo. Prime is benevolent, he is just, he is noble. He will do the right thing no matter what. His greatest enemy, the robot that betrayed him and slaughtered his race died and he felt remorse for his "brother". I mean, isnt that why we love Prime? Because of his noble feelings? Every time he is on screen he gains our respect with his behaviour and feelings and not his fists. He should be a moral beacon out there, not a soldiers that has had enough of megatron's **** and goes berserk. He was a paragon of virtue back when i was a kid and he should be one for kids nowadays as well.
I didnt mind him being a soldier, killing and stabbing and decapitating. I minded that he did gory stuff for no apparent reason, he immorally executed a prisoner and he had no character in the film.

you think at any one point during this film optimus stopped being about all those things?

just because he doesn't pull a ghandi when it comes to fighting..

he stopped smiling and took some lives when put in a difficult position
what would Yoda do?
(seriously I don't watch star wars)

"You'll never stop at one. I ll take you all on", "Piece of tin", "Sam run". Very deep stuff right there!

never said it was deep, I said it was on character

for example, look at his actual motivation for actually engaging in that disadvanted fight in the spooky forest and then talk about the character being "off"

is he selfless?
"sam run" instead of "f#$k this I'm outta here"

is he a moral beacon to be followed?
"you'll never stop at just one" as opposed to "sure, I'm with you brother, lets take the easy way"

is he turned off by the distasteful actions of the evil doers?
"piece of tin" as opposed to "you're all right in my book"

is he kid appropriate?
"piece of tin" as opposed to "*****e bag"
bay actually got that right

so yes in the forest, you need not talk of bays mis handling of the character, he was to the point and powerful at the same time
need I remind you of the garden scene from the first?

if the fans cry out against this the producers might have optimus breakdance fight in the next one...it was fine..great actually

 

[Marvin]

Listen at 2:18. Listen to his music theme, listen to Prime's speech. This is what Prime is about.
[YT]aJKGAZO4beI&feature[/YT]

you have to put things into context friend

or would you rather have optimus bust out that tired old speech in the middle of the forest fight

in fact how funny would that be

"...like us they were.."

megatron shanks him...

"give it a rest old man"

sometimes one has to act

Look at Mufasa from lion king, a kind benevolent leader yes
but in the middle of a battle don't think he won't pull out his claws,
don't think that for one minute.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Also, the reason he had no blades in the end was because he threw them at Grindor. He threw the blades but the metal part that held them, the part that is not heated remained so he used it to rip his face apart.

I was referring to the gray part of the blade. I am not sure about it, but i am sure that he threw one of his blades to Grindor.

 

[Mr. Earle]

bay actually got that right

so yes in the forest, you need talk talk of bays mis handling of the character, he was to the point and powerful at the same time
need I remind you of the garden scene from the first?

I didnt say he got it wrong. I just said that there werent any deep moments for him.

you have to put things into context friend

or would you rather have optimus bust out that tired old speech in the middle of the forest fight

in fact how funny would that be

"...like us they were.."

megatron shanks him...

"give it a rest old man"

sometimes one has to act

Look at Mufasa from lion king, a kind benevolent leader yes
but in the middle of a battle don't think he won't pull out his claws,
don't think that for one minute.

God damn it, did i say that Prime should be limited to speeches? No. But did he do anything other than massacring decepticons? Barely.

 

[Marvin]

I didnt say he got it wrong. I just said that there werent any deep moments for him.

I think grandoise self sacrifice for a simple human life is plenty deep

and he had a speech earlier in the film.

God damn it, did i say that Prime should be limited to speeches? No. But did he do anything other than massacring decepticons? Barely.

give me some alternatives given the situation

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think grandoise self sacrifice for a simple human life is plenty deep

and he had a speech earlier in the film.



give me some alternatives given the situation

Fine, the forest scene was good. You have a point.

As for the situation, the situation is what the plot writes. And when Bay orders for a script, he doesnt ask for some prime moments, some engaging scenes, etc. He orders for chances to blow things up, to show robots killing each other in impressive ways and to show Megan Fox'es boobs. If the writers can fit some substance in the middle of it, its fine, if not, who cares?

 

[protocida]

How to make everyone happy about Optimus Prime in 4 steps:

1: Optimus doesn't destroy Demolishor. He gets offline due his wounds seconds after predicting the return of the Fallen.

2: Optimus doesn't rip Grindor's face off. He just stabes his Spark, forcing him offline.

3: Optimus doesn't peel the Fallen's face off and then rips his Spark out. He destroys the Fallen by decapitating him.

4: Optimus doesn't toss Jetfire's parts aside. He takes them out normally and says they'll give Jetfire a proper burial.

And everyone would be happy (I think )! t:

 

[Mr. Earle]

How to make everyone happy about Optimus Prime in 4 steps:

1: Optimus doesn't destroy Demolishor. He gets offline due his wounds seconds after predicting the return of the Fallen.

2: Optimus doesn't rip Grindor's face off. He just stabes his Spark, forcing him offline.

3: Optimus doesn't peel the Fallen's face off and then rips his Spark out. He destroys the Fallen by decapitating him.

4: Optimus doesn't toss Jetfire's parts aside. He takes them out normally and says they'll give Jetfire a proper burial.

And everyone would be happy (I think )! t:

Lol, i think that would be better. Especially number 1 would have been so easy to do. Also, no "any last words", "give me your face" or anything like that.

 

[Marvin]

How to make everyone happy about Optimus Prime in 4 steps:

1: Optimus doesn't destroy Demolishor. He gets offline due his wounds seconds after predicting the return of the Fallen.

2: Optimus doesn't rip Grindor's face off. He just stabes his Spark, forcing him offline.

3: Optimus doesn't peel the Fallen's face off and then rips his Spark out. He destroys the Fallen by decapitating him.

4: Optimus doesn't toss Jetfire's parts aside. He takes them out normally and says they'll give Jetfire a proper burial.

And everyone would be happy (I think )! t:

all fair suggestions, however

all that would result in is a more somber optimus, a more subdued, respectful a more (insert adjective ) etc

that's the problem with making a movie with a fan base such as this, people want things

as yourself, was the optimus in this film so far removed from what "he's supposed to be" that it scarred the film/story/character?
...not really

I'm sure cullen is happy

I love that people want things, it's only when they don't get what they want and start twisting that into what they call flaws with the film that it begins to cause problems for me personally

remember the flames and even the lips, sure we wanted stuff, but look at it now, I've haven't heard one mention of the flames, in the end bay was right it really was no big deal and it made the fans seem like idiots to the executives...

in batman begins, I wanted him to have a severe hair cut when training with the ninjas, and to actually kick all their ass in that scene, Nolan in all his subtlety as a film maker missed that opportunity, but in terms of story it's no big deal, just a desire of mine

sure optimus could have been different, but he was still very much optimus

now christian bale as batman...meh

 

[CGHulk]

Optimus was to brutal in this film!

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

Granted, he's always been known as the benevolent leader who only uses violence as a last resort, but from other people that have seen it, he seems to pretty much be a straight beast in this one, ripping **** off, tearing Decepticons apart, all that there. I saw the forest scene and enjoyed it, but was that out of character for him, or was it just him saying, "I gotta do what needs to be done because these ****ers won't do any less to me or the humans"?

In the cartoon, Prime never straight up killed Decepticons as far as I know. Decepticons always retreated. This was due for the kids. Good guys don't kill. But, the film is not just for kids, so your abound to have more violence.

Prime was in a situation many times throughout this and the last film where he had to take the decepticons down, or they would kill human and robot life.

 

[dark_b]

i still think this was an extreme situation. he talks and talks. and they never listen. in the city in TF he was holding back because people were around. and he tryed to talk to megatron. but no.
here he had to go ''owning'' mode on them to give them a f... leasson.

 

[Marvin]

it's hard to sell toys on an ongoing series if you keep killing them off, movies work differently.

 

[Bren]

in the city in TF he was holding back because people were around. and he tryed to talk to megatron.

I geniunely wonder how people can believe or consider this a valid argument. Exactly how would holding back (and therefore losing to Megatron) benefit humankind. So Optimus lets loose in the city and beats Megatron, accidentally killing 300 people.

Compared to losing by holding back, and leaving Megatron free to do whatever he likes, and probably kill thousands of people (at least) in frustration to Optimus and Sam jointly destroying the cube.

Utter rubbish.

Optimus is not a fool, he tried his best in TF, just wasn't physically good enough.

 

[Mr. Earle]

If i was Cullen and Bay asked me to do the "give your face" line, i would have gone all "WHAT THE **** MAN. DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO PRIME IS?"

in batman begins, I wanted him to have a severe hair cut when training with the ninjas, and to actually kick all their ass in that scene, Nolan in all his subtlety as a film maker missed that opportunity, but in terms of story it's no big deal, just a desire of mine

He was the best student of Ras. That doesnt mean that he could take over 30 ninjas all at once. Not even in the comics can he do that. Batman is often trapped by a large force of Ras' ninjas. He is taken hostage and always ends up fighting Ras shirtless.

And you expected Nolan to have him beat up 30 ninjas? You are watching too much Bay man!

i still think this was an extreme situation. he talks and talks. and they never listen. in the city in TF he was holding back because people were around. and he tryed to talk to megatron. but no.
here he had to go ''owning'' mode on them to give them a f... leasson.

I agree with Bren's response to you. Why cant Prime lose in one occasion and win the other? Do fights always go the same way? No, it depends on many factors and even pure luck. Prime got owned in the first movie. Its as simple as that.
Bay *********ed over him in ROTF so he made him impossibly powerful. You can interpret that anyway you want, but i can see through it and understand that its all down to Bay.
Its only natural to lose one battle and win the other (facing the same opponent). But it is unnatural for Prime to basically own Megatron and 2 other huge decepticons when Megatron is supposed to be his equal.

That holding back **** is rubbish. You are only basing it on Prime being out of character in ROTF.

 

[The Guard]

Wait a sec...what's all this "Why can't Prime lose one fight and win another" stuff? I thought you were the one with the mathematical formula that explains who can beat who.

 

[craigdbfan]

That holding back **** is rubbish. You are only basing it on Prime being out of character in ROTF.

Its not rubbish. Prime in the first film was battling in a densely populated city against Megatron. If he would have been reckless as Megatron was fighting then what's the point of Prime being a "good" guy anyway.

The forest fight and the desert fight both involving Optimus are in areas that are rather desolate allowing Prime to tackle, throw and blast the Decepticons as much as he wants.