Watching X2 again, I could cry!

[chaseter]

Equally, you could say some people lack comprehension skills. Or that they have a bias against the movie because it is not Singer, or because it beat SR at the box office, or because a favourite character died, or some other reason.

I agree and say that is probably 85% of the reason of why they complain. Most of the bashers couldn't accept a change in director, why their favorite character got the cure or was killed, or that their beloved director's film was beaten severely by the one they hate so much. I agree with you here 100%.

 

[X-Maniac]

But we dont see that do we, what makes him feel secure about his mutancy, we never know, he's lived with his father for those same 10 years and i doubt his father gave him an easy time about being a mutant.



Well this sentence just sums it up, we are not sure so we are meant to guess, thats poor film making, they just wanted to get to the next action sequence and you making excuses means it was poorly executed.

Some characters just do not have huge back stories in an ensemble movie about opposing teams of people. We never really find out why Storm, Cyclops and Jean are at the school or why they do what they do (we finally get some backstory on Jean in X3), we never find out why Sabretooth, Toad and Deathstryke do what they do, we never really find out much about Nightcrawler's story and motivations except he has faith that helps him survive. Only that dialogue on the plane gives us any clue about who he is.


Some characters exist as what is called a 'foil' - a secondary character who helps us understand a major character by providing a contrast. Nightcrawler's faith contrasts with Storm's apparent lack of it, and she later appears to have found some faith at the end when she and Kurt teleport into Dark Cerebro. It's a fairly small, some might say feeble, example of character growth but it is there.

Kitty is similarly there to provide a contrast to Rogue, to incite a change in Rogue's character. The scenes with Bobby made Rogue do something dramatic. Thus, Kitty served her purpose in the storyline in creating a character development in Rogue - who decided to get cured. (Regardless of whether you agree with Rogue taking the cure - and i don't - that was Kitty's main storyline purpose and it's as clear as day).

I know you are very fond of SR and how you appear to be able to read things into scenes when we are not actually told anything, you know you often have to imagine how someone is thinking, how Superman felt when he found Krypton's remains, what Lois might have felt while he was gone. There wasn't a lot of information if i recall correctly. So you must also do the same in other movies, including X3, when the information isn't handed to you directly.

Angel has obviously had wings growing for ten years. His father's been trying to find a cure, because he has the financial resources to do it, but since there has been no way to get rid of the wings, Angel has had them all this time and is probably not continually hacking himself to pieces in the bathroom. He had learned how to conceal them with straps and a big coat, he had got on with his life for ten years. Warren's dad's search for the cure is like the parents of a gay teenager trying desperately to get their son/daughter to go to counselling or electric shock therapy or to get them married or in a straight relationship. In the end it's like forcing that person to deny what they actually are. And usually they snap and in a dramatic outburst, they make a big decision. Which is what happened with Angel in the movie. He came out, he decided he wasn't going to have any more of these endless attempts to make him 'normal'.

 

[gambitfire]

Equally, you could say some people lack comprehension skills. Or that they have a bias against the movie because it is not Singer, or because it beat SR at the box office, or because a favourite character died, or some other reason.

Not equally because if you read my post again i state how all counter arguments have different points.

and are you saying that having a favorite character badly potrayed is not a good means for disliking a movie or considering it bad?

 

[chaseter]

Not equally because if you read my post again i state how all counter arguments have different points.

and are you saying that having a favorite character badly potrayed is not a good means for disliking a movie or considering it bad?

Cyclops and Jean die in the comics...Rogue took the cure because Singer potrayed her that way in 1 and 2. Just because a favorite character or second favorite, etc...got the shaft...sure you deserve to be mad. Does it mean you should devote your online life to constantly bashing the film and the people behind it...no. I love Aunt May in the Spider-Man series but I know she has to die sometime just like she did in the comics. Their fate is already written and I accept that and try to enjoy the movie beyond that. I only hate a film if everything and every character was horrible done.

 

[Seen]

Rogue took the cure because Singer potrayed her that way in 1 and 2.

So you're blaming Singer for Ratner, Kinberg and Penn's creative decision?

Please.

 

[gambitfire]

Cyclops has never died, Rogue was not "cured" she contimplated it in the comics. Last time i checked X2 was setting up for a stronger Rogue, if you didn't see that well i'm sorry you missed out.

And IMO almost all the characters got the shaft, Screen time, arc, and potrayal.

And i assure you i'm not "devoting my online life to constantly bash X3" just like your not devoting it to constantly defend it.

 

[X-Maniac]

So you're blaming Singer for Ratner, Kinberg and Penn's creative decision?

Please.

It was one possible outcome for a character like Rogue whose power is a disability in her social and personal life. Not the outcome i wanted, but nevertheless, it's feasible. I asked the three people i know well in my office who saw X3 about it, and the friend I first saw it with, what they thought...and they all thought it was logical and acceptable for someone with her mutation to take it.

 

[chaseter]

So you're blaming Singer for Ratner, Kinberg and Penn's creative decision?

Please.

No...they hacked a lot of stuff. But for Rogue to suddenly accept her powers and be the all powerful goddess she was in the comics that everyone wanted to see in X3 is just ridiculous. I think Ratner did Rogue's character just as Singer would have done...she just needed more screen time.

 

[chaseter]

Cyclops has never died, Rogue was not "cured" she contimplated it in the comics. Last time i checked X2 was setting up for a stronger Rogue, if you didn't see that well i'm sorry you missed out.

And IMO almost all the characters got the shaft, Screen time, arc, and potrayal.

And i assure you i'm not "devoting my online life to constantly bash X3" just like your not devoting it to constantly defend it.

Cyclops died and was brought back by Sinister. I never said Rogue got the cure in the comics...I said her arc was continued in the same fasion as it was in the first two movies. A stronger Rogue in X2...ha! She hated Magneto for what he did to her, she reacted badly to the disgusted look Pyro gave her for using his powers to stop the cops, she hurt Bobby when they passionately kissed, she was scared after she flew the x-jet....yea...such a strong and powerful Rogue.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

But Angel himself must be ashamed of his mutancy as well, otherwise he would just hide them instead of cutting them off. He could have used any number of jumpers, etc to keep hiding his wings until they got to big and THEN he could have tried cutting them off.

Or, he could cut them off now, and not have to worry about it when they get bigger.

There are many gay people who hide their homosexuality, not because they are ashamed, but because they are afraid their families won't accept them. Many gay people even actually get married to people of the opposite sex, have children, and start families. Not because they are ashamed, but because they will believe their family will be, and they've lived their entire life hiding it and denying it, in order to find that acceptance.

But then all of a sudden he loves his mutancy, why exactly?

The same reason why married men come out of the closet and announce that they are gay; because they get to a point that they can't live their life for someone else anymore.

And Worhtington Snr says to Angel "We've talked it about son" during the cure scene, indicating Warren junior has already agreed to take the cure sometime in the recent past maybe. But then what made Angel do a total turnaround? Did go flying and love the freedom, did he save someones life that he couldnt have without his wings, we just dont know, and will never know, and IMO thats poor filmmaking.

Because his father, whose acceptance Angel is seeking, probably pressured him to go through with it. And Angel, at the time, agreed to it. But when it came time to actually get the shot, and lose his mutation, and a major portion of his life, he realized he was doing it for his father, and not himself. It's not that difficult really.

And X-Maniac, you mentioned earlier that Angel rejecting the cure is a classic 'coming out' scene, i totally disagree with this, how can it be a coming out scene if his father has known he was a mutant for 10 years? There is nothing to come out about is there.

Because he's finally realized he can't live his life for his father, he's finally realized that he has to live his own life, and if his father can't accept him for who he is, then that's his father's problem.

 

[Seen]

No...they hacked a lot of stuff. But for Rogue to suddenly accept her powers and be the all powerful goddess she was in the comics that everyone wanted to see in X3 is just ridiculous. I think Ratner did Rogue's character just as Singer would have done...she just needed more screen time.

Then why did Ratner shoot an alternate ending where Rogue didn't take the cure? That was merely Ratner's decision and nothing that Singer did.

At the end of X2, Rogue was getting stronger. Speaking up for herself (like how she took off her glove when Magneto made a comment on her hair). She joined the X-Men at the end of the film. She was a different person than the first movie --less insecure, more confident.

If anyone can't see that, then you obviously missed a very crucial development for this character. And to have Ratner just backpeddle Rogue like that was laughable. The gradual evolution of her character would for her to not accept the cure and be comfortable with her mutation, which was a recurrent theme throughout the first two movies (and at the end of the second, something Rogue was contending with).

 

[chaseter]

At the end of X2, Rogue was getting stronger. Speaking up for herself (like how she took off her glove when Magneto made a comment on her hair). She joined the X-Men at the end of the film. She was a different person than the first movie --less insecure, more confident.

If anyone can't see that, then you obviously missed a very crucial development for this character. And to have Ratner just backpeddle Rogue like that was laughable. The gradual evolution of her character would for her to not accept the cure and be comfortable with her mutation, which was a recurrent theme throughout the first two movies (and at the end of the second, something Rogue was contending with).

Rogue took off her glove because she was pissed at Magneto. He nearly killed her...what is she going to do...just sit there while they make fun of her hair? You gave one example of how Rogue was stonger. She joined the X-Men because that is the only family she has now. Her human family is disgusted by her for nearly killing that boy. She has no where to go...she now has a home. But, that doesn't mean she all of a sudden accepts her powers. Singer did a nice job setting up Rogue as the insecure mutant. Not every mutant wants their powers and that is what Rogue represented in all the movies. There was no moment in either of the first two films that showed Rogue wanting to keep her powers and accepting them and being happy with that decision. Rogue also said in X2 that she couldn't get that boy or Wolverine out of her head...they were now a part of her. She never once wanted her powers.

 

[gambitfire]

Cyclops died and was brought back by Sinister. I never said Rogue got the cure in the comics...I said her arc was continued in the same fasion as it was in the first two movies. A stronger Rogue in X2...ha! She hated Magneto for what he did to her, she reacted badly to the disgusted look Pyro gave her for using his powers to stop the cops, she hurt Bobby when they passionately kissed, she was scared after she flew the x-jet....yea...such a strong and powerful Rogue.

What? what issue? give me some proof. I'm 99.9 % sure he has never died.

And I saw a stronger Rogue; Standing up to someone does make her stronger as opossed to all the time she spent running away in X1. Oh no we saw things differently.....who would think.

 

[gambitfire]

Rogue took off her glove because she was pissed at Magneto. He nearly killed her...what is she going to do...just sit there while they make fun of her hair? You gave one example of how Rogue was stonger. She joined the X-Men because that is the only family she has now. Her human family is disgusted by her for nearly killing that boy. She has no where to go...she now has a home. But, that doesn't mean she all of a sudden accepts her powers. Singer did a nice job setting up Rogue as the insecure mutant. Not every mutant wants their powers and that is what Rogue represented in all the movies. There was no moment in either of the first two films that showed Rogue wanting to keep her powers and accepting them and being happy with that decision. Rogue also said in X2 that she couldn't get that boy or Wolverine out of her head...they were now a part of her. She never once wanted her powers.

She never has, not even in the comic books, but it's the good they help her do that has made her keep them for so long.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Rogue took off her glove because she was pissed at Magneto. He nearly killed her...what is she going to do...just sit there while they make fun of her hair? You gave one example of how Rogue was stonger. She joined the X-Men because that is the only family she has now. Her human family is disgusted by her for nearly killing that boy. She has no where to go...she now has a home. But, that doesn't mean she all of a sudden accepts her powers. Singer did a nice job setting up Rogue as the insecure mutant. Not every mutant wants their powers and that is what Rogue represented in all the movies. There was no moment in either of the first two films that showed Rogue wanting to keep her powers and accepting them and being happy with that decision. Rogue also said in X2 that she couldn't get that boy or Wolverine out of her head...they were now a part of her. She never once wanted her powers.

Actually, there is absolutley no evidence of this.

We don't see them shunning her, or looking down upon her, or any of that.

She ran away. She could have been scared, afraid of her powers, not wanting to hurt anyone she loved. There are many possibilities, and there's no evidence that her family was disgusted with her.

 

[chaseter]

She never has, not even in the comic books, but it's the good they help her do that has made her keep them for so long.

That is where the movieverse Rogue and the comic Rogue seperate. Her powers nearly killed hundreds in X1, she nearly killed Wolverine and her first love. In X2, she helped cops while Pyro was disgusted...but Iceman could have put out the fire anyways. She can't get close to her boyfriend or have any human contact. Rogue really has never had a chance to do good on a large scale using her powers. But my point still stands that Ratner did not deviate from what Singer created with Rogue.

 

[gambitfire]

That is where the movieverse Rogue and the comic Rogue seperate.

They shouldn't seperate when it comes too character personality, values, and traits. IMO

Her powers nearly killed hundreds in X1, she nearly killed Wolverine and her first love.

That wasn't necessarily her power. But yea the other 2 where her fault and it's the things that she goes through that make Rogue...Rogue

In X2, she helped cops while Pyro was disgusted...but Iceman could have put out the fire anyways. She can't get close to her boyfriend or have any human contact. Rogue really has never had a chance to do good on a large scale using her powers. But my point still stands that Ratner did not deviate from what Singer created with Rogue.

But he didn't and she can still do so much more. The lack in creativity of things they could of had her due is the reason those hackjob film makers cured her. So she can destroy hundreds in a large scale but she can't help them?

Well in the end to you he didn't but too me he went in a completeley different direction.

 

[chaseter]

Actually, there is absolutley no evidence of this.

We don't see them shunning her, or looking down upon her, or any of that.

She ran away. She could have been scared, afraid of her powers, not wanting to hurt anyone she loved. There are many possibilities, and there's no evidence that her family was disgusted with her.

If her family truly loved and accepted her, she would keep in contact with them, not run away to Canada. Xavier did not visit Rogue as he did most of the other students. Her parents more than likely were not acclamated to the mutant culture. We see that Bobby's family, Warren's dad, as well as Jean's family are not accepting of their mutancy. With that theme layed out in all 3 movies, it is more than likely that Rogue's parents felt the same. Connecting the dots from themes, interactions, and dialogue helps the audience to read between the lines on that issue.

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

If I may put my opinions out there, I don't believe Singer was setting Rogue up to be cured in the future movies. If anything, I believe that he was actually setting her up for at least more than what she got in X3. Yes, people have different ideas about whether she progressed in X1 to X2, as a more confident character. It may have been small steps, or giant steps depending on how you feel. The biggest realization I had on Rogue's character developement, involved the White House scene in X2. Throughout the film, there had been hints of her becoming a more confident young woman, her wanting to help Logan in the mansion, having enough faith in herself and Bobby to actually kiss, deciding to pilot the jet, as well as other small parts. It felt to me that Rogue standing with all the other X-Men in the whitehouse, paralleled Logan's issue with joining a side. To me, Rogue deciding to suit up, to join the X-Men, was a clear decision that as much as she disliked what has happened to her, she had finally accepted her mutation and stepped into the awaiting arms of the mutant team The X-Men. She stood with her comrades, people that she was like, people that accepted her, to represent her people in front of the President. That's just how I felt about whether Rogue had accepted who she was. Which was why I found it shocking that she was cured.

 

[BMM]

Cyclops and Jean die in the comics...

Jean dies in the comics. Cyclops does not. Cylcops temporarily merges with Apocalypse, but he doesn't die (unless something has happened recently that I'm unware of).

Rogue took the cure because Singer potrayed her that way in 1 and 2.

Rogue's emotional arc is portrayed as it is in the source material. Her dilemma is hardly anything new that was suddenly invented in 2000's X-Men. Also, Rogue questioning whether or not to cure herself has been adressed in both the source material and the Animated Series and is hardly a setup concocted at the hands of the previous creative team. The difference is, in the source material she decides not to cure herself . . . such a scene was even filmed for The Last Stand, and in my opinion, it works better than the one featured in the theatrical cut.

 

[BMM]

Of course not, because that's what we are used to. When there is a shift of characters, people question: Who are they? What are they doing here?

But that's why we saw the Kitty/Bobby relationship, to establish the character in the film. (Whether or not they give her a personality is a different matter). They've established the characters, and so we have no choice but to feel for them when times are hard or when all hope seems lost.

Sorry for the triple post . . . Hype slowness. Yes, but the point is that the pay-off isn't the same regardless of one character’s brief establishment. This is the third film in a series that is now being wrapped up as a trilogy. Over the course of two films in six years, audiences have invested a fair amount of time getting to know certain characters and there is an expected pay-off associated with this.

This is one of the reasons why I believe the Jean v. Xavier sequence is the most gratifying sequence in the movie (despite the fact that Xavier dies). There is more of a connection established between these characters and the audience. I would much rather watch more moments akin to this between the likes of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Magneto, Mystique, Rogue, Storm, Wolverine, Xavier, etc., especially because these are the main characters that this particular trilogy has devoted itself to following. Don't get me wrong, Kitty's moments are nice, but they just aren't as gratifying to me as the others would be because the other characters, unlike Kitty Pryde, have had two films of build-up.

 

[The Ones]

At the end of X-2, i believe Rogue has come to realise she can help so many people with her mutation. Just like in the comic's. We see this as Pyro was flipping out. It was her mutation, and her mutation alone that helped save those cops from being severly burnt. Her being an X-man because of her mutation helped save all of the X-men at Alkali Lake. If she wasnt there and was living a happy life down in mississippi, they would be stuck there with no means of transport. Her mutation has helped many people and her friends. If she wants to cure herself after that then i find that astounding.

 

[X-Maniac]

Then why did Ratner shoot an alternate ending where Rogue didn't take the cure? That was merely Ratner's decision and nothing that Singer did.

At the end of X2, Rogue was getting stronger. Speaking up for herself (like how she took off her glove when Magneto made a comment on her hair). She joined the X-Men at the end of the film. She was a different person than the first movie --less insecure, more confident.

If anyone can't see that, then you obviously missed a very crucial development for this character. And to have Ratner just backpeddle Rogue like that was laughable. The gradual evolution of her character would for her to not accept the cure and be comfortable with her mutation, which was a recurrent theme throughout the first two movies (and at the end of the second, something Rogue was contending with).

I wouldn't say it was a recurrent theme. Rogue seemed a little more secure in X2, a little more brave, that is true. But we didn't have Kitty in the frame at that point. A large change in the dynamic occurred in X3 when Kitty became a team member and created some new tensions that didn't exist before.

As they shot two different endings for Rogue, they too thought it might work either way. As fans of the comic, or fans of Bryan's perceived vision (which is projected, not actual, as we have no X3 by Bryan), people will be less satisfied by her taking the cure.

I can see why a cure might be one option, and friends who are unfamiliar with the comics didn't feel it was at all wrong. I would rather she had not taken it, and that there had been a more dramatic end scene with Iceman and other students all welcoming her back...back into Xavier's 'dream' and the school's mutant community. Although equally the school welcoming her back as a non-mutant would also show Xavier's dream of mutant/human co-existence had lived on and begun to prosper.

They did have a scene in mind in which Rogue and Bobby hugged or kissed in the gardens and then the camera panned to Leech playing his computer game behind a nearby hedge, cancelling Rogue's powers (inadvertently or deliberately).

 

[gambitfire]

At the end of X-2, i believe Rogue has come to realise she can help so many people with her mutation. Just like in the comic's. We see this as Pyro was flipping out. It was her mutation, and her mutation alone that helped save those cops from being severly burnt. Her being an X-man because of her mutation helped save all of the X-men at Alkali Lake. If she wasnt there and was living a happy life down in mississippi, they would be stuck there with no means of transport. Her mutation has helped many people and her friends. If she wants to cure herself after that then i find that astounding.

That's what i've been saying! t:

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Also, if Rogue never accepted her powers, she could just live by the school and never become an X-men. Why did she choose to be one? To look good in leather? To visit the Whitehouse? No, because she wanted to help, and she knew her powers could help. Despite all her hate for her powers, she had accepted her destiny and made a step ahead, becoming a member of the team. She wanted to be an X-men. Her X3 arc completely surpasses that and regresses Rogue to her X1 persona, thus neglecting any evolution on her personality. Her story is like a parabola, when it should be a raising line.