What are your complaints? What would you do differently? *SPOILERS*

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Two scenes;
Superman 2
Ursa and Non are about to throw a bus
Superman - 'No, don't do it! The people!'
It doesn't change the situation as the bus is still thrown but the hero is concerned about the people in the bus and so am I.
Zod picks up a bus in MOS, superman says screw em?

The point is it wasn't the same type of fight, zod spent his entire time pushing the super speed actiong on superman and throwing him through buildings. If you are asking why that wasn't added to the scene I suppose you have a point about the premise itself but the direction within that doesn't do harm to the characterization you are seeking.

Moreover, I seem to recall the type of writing you are looking for all over the smallville fight. Whether you choose to ignore it is beyond Goyer/Snyder/Nolan.

And yes superman having to directly take a life was fully due to the immediate collateral damage in the form of that innocent family(achievement unlocked). It's funny, I think if Superman didn't kill zod in that moment but rather moved him, than people might have acknowledged this.

IM3
The skydive save.
You see the concern on Starks face when Jarvis tells him he can only save 4 people. The hero is concerned and so am I.

I just don't feel that with Superman, he just doesn't seem bothered by the collateral damage.
Beyond the lack real concern RDJ can seemingly express unless his own person is in danger(lots of jokes), I find that plane rescue to be an example of what I'm talking about. Superman isn't in the same situation these other guys are in. Do you think if superman found himself in....

-Flies up with the intention of saving the air force one and it's crew
-Encounters a challenging blood thirsty villain
-Hostages are tossed out of plane(one of possibly the utmost importance)
-Superman kills the enemy(gasp, not heroic, fail)
-Superman tell his dead body to go to hell(or what ever)
What pray tell do you think superman does now? Tells everyone to peace out?
I say again it's not the same, and that's why things went down differently. But I'll give you that you found an example of IM showing concern for lives mid...well post fight. Though he kinda did a number to that plane doing so. I suppose he only got lucky no one died during his actions.(not sure where that plane landed, see superman returns for possible details).

I suppose it's also better writing Stark has magic sci-fi magnetic powers we've never seen before, and doesn't actually have to make hard decisions...
 
Zod picks up a bus in MOS, superman says screw em?

The point is it wasn't the same type of fight, zod spent his entire time pushing the super speed actiong on superman and throwing him through buildings. If you are asking why that wasn't added to the scene I suppose you have a point about the premise itself but the direction within that doesn't do harm to the characterization you are seeking.

Moreover, I seem to recall the type of writing you are looking for all over the smallville fight. Whether you choose to ignore it is beyond Goyer/Snyder/Nolan.

And yes superman having to directly take a life was fully due to the immediate collateral damage in the form of that innocent family(achievement unlocked). It's funny, I think if Superman didn't kill zod in that moment but rather moved him, than people might have acknowledged this.


Beyond the lack real concern RDJ can seemingly express unless his own person is in danger(lots of jokes), I find that plane rescue to be an example of what I'm talking about. Superman isn't in the same situation these other guys are in. Do you think if superman found himself in....

-Flies up with the intention of saving the air force one and it's crew
-Encounters a challenging blood thirsty villain
-Hostages are tossed out of plane(one of possibly the utmost importance)
-Superman kills the enemy(gasp, not heroic, fail)
-Superman tell his dead body to go to hell(or what ever)
What pray tell do you think superman does now? Tells everyone to peace out?
I say again it's not the same, and that's why things went down differently. But I'll give you that you found an example of IM showing concern for lives mid...well post fight. Though he kinda did a number to that plane doing so. I suppose he only got lucky no one died during his actions.(not sure where that plane landed, see superman returns for possible details).

I suppose it's also better writing Stark has magic sci-fi magnetic powers we've never seen before, and doesn't actually have to make hard decisions...

You make some interesting and valid points but in MoS I got the 'impression' that Superman cared little for the people of Metropolis. The reality may not have been the case and I'm pretty sure that isn't wasn't the film makers intention but that is what I FELT when I was watching the death and destruction.
If I started reading reviews, how many reviews do you think I would get through before reading reviews of people who got the exact same impression I did?
 
Stark has had "magic sci-fi powers" from movie one. . . and actually, has had "magic sci-fi magnetic powers" in the comics since, well, the earliest comics. :p

What's more, you miss the real thematic point of that scene: Tony Stark couldn't save all of them. Tony Stark *could* help them save *each other*.
 
I thought it was a fair point.
But I forgot about the list of movies that can and cannot be brought up for comparison in this thread according to the unwritten code.

Next time I'll know better, forget about cbm comparisons it's all about the law dramas and war documentaries from now on.(sarcastic smilely)

Most of the time you invoke your Marvel movie comparisons, they're chalk full of indirect slights on their handling of the genre. They're never direct black and white comparisons devoid of your high brow sarcasm. That's why I don't agree with your attempts to do it. It basically comes down to "Oh em gee, Marvels gots away with this stuffs, MoS duz it soooo much bettaz."
 
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I was disappointed with Jonathan Kent. He shoul be teach Kal how to use his gifts responsibly not telling him to let a bus full of kids die a horrible death. I hoped I wouldnt be bothered as much by this when I sawit in the trailers but I kinda hated it.

Smallville Jonathan Kent was better in that regard.

If he had shown Kal how to use his powers without exposing himself he wouldn't have been ripped to shreds by a tornado while saving a damn dog. I was really disappointed Hank was a dog.

And really, in the cluster**** that was the tornado Clark could easily superspeed over there an carry Kent out. No one would be the wiser.
 
I was disappointed with Jonathan Kent. He shoul be teach Kal how to use his gifts responsibly not telling him to let a bus full of kids die a horrible death. I hoped I wouldnt be bothered as much by this when I sawit in the trailers but I kinda hated it.

Smallville Jonathan Kent was better in that regard.

If he had shown Kal how to use his powers without exposing himself he wouldn't have been ripped to shreds by a tornado while saving a damn dog. I was really disappointed Hank was a dog.

And really, in the cluster**** that was the tornado Clark could easily superspeed over there an carry Kent out. No one would be the wiser.

Fully agree. You can't have a movie about a protag who is supposed to be a symbol of hope for all of humanity who's father convinces him it's right to let people die ...... sends an extremely bizarre/conflicting message. Did he have his reasons? Surely. But it got to a point where the reasoning was paranoia as the movie never demonstrates society's unwillingness to accept someone like Clark. I think Goyer went too far to shock the audience into an emotional invesment without understanding the strange dichotomy he created.

I expect someone to jump in here and tell me, "Well the military fired upon Supes in Smallville!" That's not a demonstration of society. That is a military who doesn't have any idea WTF is going on amidst mass carnage in a small town. All they're seeing is explosions and a brawl taking out buildings everywhere.
 
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I disagree, when measuring how functional a self contained film is I look to the walk in casuals. It's the people with preconceived notions that can fill in the gaps for themselves. I can't tell you how many times when watching a film with my less comicbook savvy buddy I'm asked a question about how something works and I tell him something from the book.

This is made more clear when looking at the way these two types of audiences respond to the likes of Game Of Thrones. Is it self contained...

Well, actually the movie itself introduced this idea of Clark having to cover his identity, and the movie itself fell short about the subject. Not only too many people know, but his disguise has never been so poorly done.

Now, about the impact of Superman in the world, that is also part of what you expect when Pa Kent dies in order to prevent Clark to expose himself. And then Clark gets this wonderful suit and decides to help the world. But few people knew about it.

Pretty sure if you read superman, you'd have to think that the rest of the "planet" buys into the disguise. What's the point of questioning this. Next we'll be question if Luthor exists given he's such a big player and they didn't show him once...

The point is that at the very least the disguise has to look half convincing.

So your problem is with the source material?
As for lois? I don't understand how this is a bad thing, care to expand on that?

The dynamics between Lois, Superman and Clark were essential part of the Superman myth. Now that is gone. If you think that's nice, I'd ask you if you have problems with the source material.

Again, Clark's disguise as a journalist had to at least look effective. In the Donner movies, with all its camp, Clark the journalist looked and acted differently than Superman. In MOS, he acted exactly like the usual Clark, which again acted a whole lot like Superman. And those glasses didn't work as the rest of his face was clearly the same as Superman's.

I personally don't remember anyone on that bus outside of lana seeing clark at the bottom of a bus that just happened to emerge from the lake. But that's my memory of it. We have Pete ross as well.

And we have a family going to the Kents house to talk about it. And we have all those students and the teacher who knew about little Clark's problems.

As for the rest of the kids, do you honestly believe the reason those bullies messed with clark is because they think he's a super strong alien? I was under the impression they just thought he was a freak loser wimp who spazzed out every now and then and needed his mom to come in every now and then. I suppose we can just chalk this confusion up to Snyder's bad direction(like the rest of the things that don't click).

Yes, I do. In a small religious town you don't just perform a miracle and everybody gets quiet about it.

It needed further exploration for me. Chekhov's gun and all that.

That's why I said I would have liked if STM had ended with the three Kryptonian villains being freed from the Phantom Zone.

But if you had problems with that, then how come you weren't worried about so many people knowing Clark is Superman or having solid clues to follow if the movie itself proposed Clark's identity must be kept a secret.
 
You make some interesting and valid points but in MoS I got the 'impression' that Superman cared little for the people of Metropolis. The reality may not have been the case and I'm pretty sure that isn't wasn't the film makers intention but that is what I FELT when I was watching the death and destruction.
If I started reading reviews, how many reviews do you think I would get through before reading reviews of people who got the exact same impression I did?

To be fair, they could have added (more)stuff. If you didn't feel there was enough than that's that. I'm just trying to add some perspective, I wouldn't really argue against add it. I would however argue against the "this isn't how it's supposed to happen with a real hero" movement.

I still this this is partially a phenomena of 30 years of seeing the same kinda direction on the big screen. Alot of people that feel this way because they really have no other interpretation of superman to base their measure from. I mean returns was nothing but him stopping his day to save people. This is the motivation for my inquisition into this response.
 
Stark has had "magic sci-fi powers" from movie one. . . and actually, has had "magic sci-fi magnetic powers" in the comics since, well, the earliest comics. :p
I've never seen him employ these magic sci fi magnetic powers before. Definitely not though people anyways. I guess electron manipulation of some sort might do it...seems kinda convenient though. Next they will have spiderman do this to 20 people by convenient extension of power.

What's more, you miss the real thematic point of that scene: Tony Stark couldn't save all of them. Tony Stark *could* help them save *each other*.
Would that mean everyone in MOS that performed a heroic act as a result of supermans actions is guilty of the same trait? If so, yay for Kal.
 
Most of the time you invoke your Marvel movie comparisons, they're chalk full of indirect slights on their handling of the genre. They're never direct black and white comparisons devoid of your high brow sarcasm. That's why I don't agree with your attempts to do it. It basically comes down to "Oh em gee, Marvels gots away with this stuffs, MoS duz it soooo much bettaz."
My attempts to point out a simple double standard might appear that way to you. It would. I expect no less.

And I assure you my slights are usually more on the direct side as opposed to the indirect. At least I think so.

As for my sarcasm, hey, Tony Stark does it and no one complains:o
(see what I did)
 
Fully agree. You can't have a movie about a protag who is supposed to be a symbol of hope for all of humanity who's father convinces him it's right to let people die ...... sends an extremely bizarre/conflicting message. Did he have his reasons? Surely. But it got to a point where the reasoning was paranoia as the movie never demonstrates society's unwillingness to accept someone like Clark. I think Goyer went too far to shock the audience into an emotional invesment without understanding the strange dichotomy he created.

Whoa, when did this happen.

As for the message it sends, morality isn't black and white. See the ending of film to see this theme delivered upon.
 
My attempts to point out a simple double standard might appear that way to you. It would. I expect no less.

And I assure you my slights are usually more on the direct side as opposed to the indirect. At least I think so.

As for my sarcasm, hey, Tony Stark does it and no one complains:o
(see what I did)

.... and the endless array of Marvel slights continues .....

It's a sorry state of affairs when your relentless defense of this film has now devolved into trying to tear apart Marvel movies.

Whoa, when did this happen.

As for the message it sends, morality isn't black and white. See the ending of film to see this theme delivered upon.

Oh I dunno .... when he let Clark partake in a son-assisted father suicide. Don't forget when he suggested maybe it would've been right to let the kids die in the bus. But but but but Goyer wrote it that way so it's ok, what's important is how he executed it! Yada yada yada.
 
You could argue that Superman was nonchalant about the destruction in the movie because that's how he was raised.
 
You could argue that Superman was nonchalant about the destruction in the movie because that's how he was raised.

To be fair I rewatched it today and yes he is a little reckless but most if the recklessness comes from Zod smashing him into buildings
 
To be fair I rewatched it today and yes he is a little reckless but most if the recklessness comes from Zod smashing him into buildings

I've been moaning about the movie all day but I'm seeing it tonight for the 3rd time :woot:
 
Now, about the impact of Superman in the world, that is also part of what you expect when Pa Kent dies in order to prevent Clark to expose himself. And then Clark gets this wonderful suit and decides to help the world. But few people knew about it.
If movies become about too many things sometimes that leads to actual legitimate critics about pacing and congestion and confusing themes..etc.
I'm happy to think this movie is about Kal finding himself and his purpose which is fully satisfactory for my expectations of a singular film. And the next film to be about what it was Lois hinted at with the final line of the film.

The point is that at the very least the disguise has to look half convincing.
Hard to argue this in any tangible way except to reference the source material. Glasses, Presence and Demeanor. Oh, and no super suit:cwink:

The dynamics between Lois, Superman and Clark were essential part of the Superman myth. Now that is gone. If you think that's nice, I'd ask you if you have problems with the source material.
Depends, are you talking about the source material that has lois knowing and protecting(and marrying) Kal or the Lois that doesn't. I've seen both on smallvile, I've seen both the books, I've even seen both in donner. The real question now is which dynamic is better and for today's audiences, especially in a second reboot.

I would immediately think the latter because it hasn't been done to death. But that's me.

Again, Clark's disguise as a journalist had to at least look effective. In the Donner movies, with all its camp, Clark the journalist looked and acted differently than Superman. In MOS, he acted exactly like the usual Clark, which again acted a whole lot like Superman. And those glasses didn't work as the rest of his face was clearly the same as Superman's.
I personally don't think you've seen how he's acting as clark. If anything the only person you've seen him "act" for is Lois, who happens in on it.
..but I know how you feel about that.

When superman proclaims to the general that he doesn't want to be toyed with, or when he hovers about them all like a god, that's him acting like superman as far as those people know. I don't think I saw that in clark, again we haven't seen it yet. Mind you in that Birthright book we are presented with a different approach to clark, one that just blends in and isn't an attention seeking clown. There are lots of ways to go about it.
And we have a family going to the Kents house to talk about it. And we have all those students and the teacher who knew about little Clark's problems.
Again, pete ross. I believe that his mother there talking to the kents. I also believe that's the way it is in the source material?

As for Clark's problems at school? Not sure how a kid having a panic attack implies anything otherworldly. More like this kid needs to be picked on later for being a spazz, a wimp and an easy target. I mean to anyone not in the audience, aren't these the symptoms of a simple panic attack?

Yes, I do. In a small religious town you don't just perform a miracle and everybody gets quiet about it.
So you do infact believe the reason those bullies wanted to fight him was because they thought he had super powers? We'll have to disagree on that.

That's why I said I would have liked if STM had ended with the three Kryptonian villains being freed from the Phantom Zone.
But if you had problems with that, then how come you weren't worried about so many people knowing Clark is Superman or having solid clues to follow if the movie itself proposed Clark's identity must be kept a secret.
I suppose that would have helped that film, however it wouldn't have done it any wonders for this self contained discussion.

To answer your question, the stress point that clark's identity be kept a secret stemmed from Jon's belief that clark was meant to find his true calling/destiny without a bunch of kids on a bus squealing and ruining any chance of him saving the world at the age jesus did. He advised clark to keep his powers and origin on the down low. Seeing as that destiny is now found I think the thematic pressure is relieved.

As for me being worried about people knowing clarks ID. As I've expressed, I'm not sure how many people in fact know. Especially when he was in nameless drifter mode(to those people that was always a bearded superman). I do think there has always been a small contingent of people that are allowed to know before it becomes an issue, that's the way it's been in the source material as well. If anything it's batman that needs to practice greater care and so far hasn't.

Laslty, I think anyone that knows by way of being saved is probably indebted in some way and I like the idea that they would want to keep his secret. That's the difference between the message in superman and Lucius Fox having to threaten a man into shutting up about it(and the league of shadows knowing and the ability for the gov't to track the batmobile)...
I like how they included that the gov't can't do any such tracking with superman.
 
Ha ha enjoy, so what do you think of it? You must like it to see it 3 times

HATED my first viewing, liked my second viewing, this 3rd viewing will hopefully seal the deal.
 
.... and the endless array of Marvel slights continues .....

It's a sorry state of affairs when your relentless defense of this film has now devolved into trying to tear apart Marvel movies.
I was joking. I'm convinced you know that.
Moreover, how is calling stark sarcastic a slight in anyway?

Oh I dunno .... when he let Clark partake in a son-assisted father suicide. Don't forget when he suggested maybe it would've been right to let the kids die in the bus. But but but but Goyer wrote it that way so it's ok, what's important is how he executed it! Yada yada yada.

First of all, plz don't words in my mouth. NOT a fan of the old strawman.

Secondly, this is what you said "who's father convinces him it's right to let people die"
Now you're saying his father said "maybe" it's right? Which one is it man?
Maybe and, is right aren't the same things.

You can quote me on this so that you don't have to use the strawman going forward. Jonathan let his son in on two things in that scene.
1. That clark actually try and keep his powers a secret if he has to use them(as he later goes on to do)!
2. That not all the answers are as easy as yes or no. Point in case, notice how Superman hasn't done anything about North Korea in any of the source material? It's because his father taught him that the answers aren't always as simple as letting people live or die. It's about doing what he thinks is right. Hundreds of people starve to death there, maybe we should ask Jon Kent if we're supposed to just let them die so he can say maybe again and superman fans can do their little thing. In the 80's superman could just grab everyone's nukes and put them in the sun, a more modern take on such questions is met with more tact and ambiguity. I know might make for poor superman film in the eyes of some but it might also make for a better film in general.

And that includes not exposing himself to save his own adopted father.
But that's me, next time you want to tell me what I'm thinking just quote this, you can add the "yada's" if you want but that might be seen as rude..
Father assisted suicide is such an ugly way of putting something you don't like, what about son accepted sacrifice?
 
I like comics, and I like Pa Kent to be a positive moral influence. HOWEVER, I feel like pushing Kent into a conflicted character not only makes him more realistic and human, but demonstrates Superman's maturity to rise beyond even some of the negative influences his immediate family MIGHT have on him. Maybe that's why I prefer Frank Miller's Jim Gordon. He's flawed and makes some selfish choices. But he's HUMAN, and shares in mankind's weaknesses.

I hope the sequel has more flashbacks showing the positive influence of Pa Kent. But I feel like MOS Kent is the character who could actually exist IRL: confused, frustrated, and concerned for his son above everything else.

I'm not saying there aren't great moral figures on this earth. But by Kent more flawed, he contrasts with Jor-El thematically.

As for Ma Kent, the worst thing she does is curse out the Kryptonians. It's actually satisfying, and if anything, it's how people should handle unapologetic and violent evil. By standing up against them, even if there's the possibility that her son might not be around, she shows heroism.
 
I was joking. I'm convinced you know that.
Moreover, how is calling stark sarcastic a slight in anyway?



First of all, plz don't words in my mouth. NOT a fan of the old strawman.

Secondly, this is what you said "who's father convinces him it's right to let people die"
Now you're saying his father said "maybe" it's right? Which one is it man?
Maybe and, is right aren't the same things.

You can quote me on this so that you don't have to use the strawman going forward. Jonathan let his son in on two things in that scene.
1. That clark actually try and keep his powers a secret if he has to use them(as he later goes on to do)!
2. That not all the answers are as easy as yes or no. Point in case, notice how Superman hasn't done anything about North Korea in any of the source material? It's because his father taught him that the answers aren't always as simple as letting people live or die. It's about doing what he thinks is right. Hundreds of people starve to death there, maybe we should ask Jon Kent if we're supposed to just let them die so he can say maybe again and superman fans can do their little thing. In the 80's superman could just grab everyone's nukes and put them in the sun, a more modern take on such questions is met with more tact and ambiguity. I know might make for poor superman film in the eyes of some but it might also make for a better film in general.

And that includes not exposing himself to save his own adopted father.
But that's me, next time you want to tell me what I'm thinking just quote this, you can add the "yada's" if you want but that might be seen as rude..
Father assisted suicide is such an ugly way of putting something you don't like, what about son accepted sacrifice?

Whether sacrifice or suicide, it is still a D-E-A-T-H nonetheless, which Clark acquiesced to. Regardless, his sacrifice was not proven to be necessary. I've previously pointed out prior to this that the fear of world not being ready for Clark's existence was never established in the film, merely muttered verbally by various characters opining. That is the very definition of poor story-telling. I'm surprised they didn't have time to feature a scene by the old water cooler at the Daily Planet where a couple more trivial characters mention an obligatory, "You know I was thinking last night that the world just isn't ready for the existence of beings from another planet."
 
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Whether sacrifice or suicide, it is still a D-E-A-T-H nonetheless, which Clark acquiesced to. Regardless, his sacrifice was not proven to be necessary. I've previously pointed out prior to this that the fear of world not being ready for Clark's existence was never established in the film, merely muttered verbally by various characters opining. That is the very definition of poor story-telling. I'm surprised they didn't have time to feature a scene by the old water cooler at the Daily Planet where a couple more trivial characters mention an obligatory, "You know I was thinking last night that the world just isn't ready for the existence of beings from another planet."

Sacrifice(for the greater good) and suicide aren't the same thing in my book. Or do we need to pull out the how to die hero handbook written by one Obi Wan Kenobi? Wasn't luke there btw?

Whether it was true or not(global fear established in the greater world) that has nothing to do with what Jon and therefore young clark believe. If anything all they learned was that John was right. Clark saved the bus and it wasn't some sort of celebration but rather quite the opposite.
Then we get how the military treats him in the interrogation room, even after he proves himself.
Even in the end the military voices their concern over his existence and what he can do.

Good thing Jon didn't let this happen before Clark was ready.
Don't you agree?

Here's a thought, if Clark wasn't left to find himself the way that he did, right up too the scout ship. Would he have been the same superman that said no and defeated Zod? What ever your answer, understand this is precisely what Jon died to protect. Lest have a military compound clark raised to enact US legislation lol.
 
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Whether sacrifice or suicide, it is still a D-E-A-T-H nonetheless, which Clark acquiesced to. Regardless, his sacrifice was not proven to be necessary. I've previously pointed out prior to this that the fear of world not being ready for Clark's existence was never established in the film, merely muttered verbally by various characters opining. That is the very definition of poor story-telling. I'm surprised they didn't have time to feature a scene by the old water cooler at the Daily Planet where a couple more trivial characters mention an obligatory, "You know I was thinking last night that the world just isn't ready for the existence of beings from another planet."

I mean, it was pretty clear in terms of how the military treated Superman that the world feared him. Or at the very least, the military.
 
Oh I dunno .... when he let Clark partake in a son-assisted father suicide. Don't forget when he suggested maybe it would've been right to let the kids die in the bus. But but but but Goyer wrote it that way so it's ok, what's important is how he executed it! Yada yada yada.

No matter how anyone tries to defend that scene, it's still totally bad writing, totally disregard for the bond between parent/children... and not to mention, totally immoral (in almost any standards anyone cares to come up with).

I have seen this movie twice now, and each time with a bunch of buddies.. the second time, even my 18 year old nephew had a 'wtf moment' during the tornado scene..
 
^ The tornado moment felt like a "ploy." It's like there was a sense of "the movie wasn't dramatic enough let's show Kent die in a preventable manner."

I'll defend the characterization of Kent for the most part, but I won't defend the tornado scene. That scene shouldn't have made it in the script.
 
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