What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[2kt09]

It's a cancellation of an interconnected superhero franchise touted as the cornerstone for WB's near future in a time when interconnected superhero franchises are the hottest thing in Hollywood. This blows your examples out of the water.

Spoiler

But it doesn't matter in regards to the current debate at hand, that being if WB cancelled the DCEU, it would be a staggering admission of failure that eclipses any example you can bring to the table. If you don't see the doom and gloom in WB failing to capitalize on the most iconic superheroes ever at a time when superhero movies are the hottest thing in Hollywood, you need to open your eyes.

I'm going to repeat myself one more time: WB failing to capitalize on an interconnected universe full of the most iconic superheroes at a time when interconnected superhero movies are the hottest thing in Hollywood would be a failure that eclipses anything that has happened in quite some time.

Well, interconnected franchises in general. Doesn't really matter how often you have to repeat yourself. Cancelling the DCEU in favor of solo endeavors (in favor of solo endeavors because that's what this debate was about) IS not worse than brand limbo or mitigating losses through coproduction or doing anything else possible to not go bankrupt.

That's not what happened with Sony. The first ASM made them a nice profit and easily garnered a sequel; the next movie is where things went wrong, but they still garnered a profit. Again, you are pointing to one disappointing film and trying to compare it to an entire slate of bigger, more high-profile disappointments.

They had 3 disappointing movies (no idea Spider-Man 3 costed THAT much). They ended a franchise which at one point had sequels planned before scrapping it for a reboot/remake. A reboot/remake of their most marketable superhero that made as much as the average Phase 2 MCU movie, which is already on top of a large marketing investment. Those trailers and tv spots that gave away most of the movie cost money.

Your comparison's fall apart even further once you actually take a look: FFINO was one low-rent rights grab of a property that is nowhere near as popular as the DCEU. No one cared that it came and went, it was a complete blip on the radar and everyone paying attention knew it was a failure months before it premiered. ASM 2 coming in below expectations but still turning a profit isn't a good comparison either, and neither is them handing the reigns over to Marvel due to their parent company being hacked by an enemy of the US government. That's a completely different ball game than throwing in the towel on a franchise because it just flat out does not connect with audiences, which is the situation we are discussing with WB.

You keep explaining how much worse those cases are. If the DCEU collapses under those conditions, than yes "biggest admission of failure".

Find me some examples then, because you've been unable to do so thus far.

Time Warner had to be bought up.
Dreamworks Animation had to be bought up.
Lionsgate and Summit had to merge as they currently practice "financial discipline"

 

[DrCosmic]

Unless you've already hypothesized it had to be so Fant4stic/FFINO bad, another Justice League would be out of the question. All I'm going with is that that universe's fate is canned. Develop another Justice League movie with a different approach. Make several and have those collide via Inifinite Crisis. Possibilities are endless when you're not limited the way F4 is.

This is worse. This is, without bias, worse.
Fox is contractually obligated to make another F4 movie IF that last attempt wasn't bad enough to have the rights revert.


http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/batman-v-superman-fallout-warner-895174



Well, first of all it was a cheap movie. Second of all, it wasn't released.
That's a massive failure from start-finish.
Because "expensive" is putting in actual effort and hoping for success.
Fox's admission of failure is bigger because they actually prepare for it.
End the DCEU right now, and focus their efforts on making good solo features
OR make several films akin to Suicide Squad to make up for those billions.

Johns will still report to DC Entertainment president Diane Nelson, while Berg will report to Silverman.

This is what you're crossing out "different from" for and putting in similar to, a studio split under a different studio. How is this like Marvel Studios? How does this address the problem of incompetent oversight?

I have made cheap movies that failed to be released. I handled it so badly I can't make any others in that series, ever. Can I argue that those are a bigger failure than the DCEU failing? Since clearly that's a massive failure from start to finish.

But the main thing you're missing, that I see now with this post, is that you think making a new DCEU 5-10 years from now will make the end of this DCEU less of a failure. You want to endorse them "bouncing back" but keep ignoring the necessary details about what they would be "back" from or to.

 

[metaphysician]

"A bold new direction" would be defecting to what Skwad got away with or the other easier alternative of a 4 quadrant blockbuster.

If they haven't been aiming for all four quadrants from the getgo, than they screwed up terminally already, and were doomed from the start.

 

[writer0327]

2kt09,

I understand what you are trying to say, I really do.....but there are levels to this. And the level of failure of a scrapped DCEU, particularly at this time when CBMs are the hottest thing going and WB could really use gargantuan landmark franchise that should theoretically last 10+ years, would be akin to Disney screwing up Star Wars after paying $4B for it. And I kind of hesitate in saying even that, because I think screwing up a CBM universe full of the most iconic superheroes at THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME is just an unbelievably bad.

I honestly think they should be printing money and wiping the floor with Marvel, and that's with Marvel being as solid as they are. DC should be that much better. And they are not. It's an historic tank job on their part. Let's hope WW and JL turn this thing around, but that's all we got right now. Hope.

 

[2kt09]

If they haven't been aiming for all four quadrants from the getgo, than they screwed up terminally already, and were doomed from the start.

I think that's what Suicide Squad ended up being.
That's also what WW and Justice League is supposedly aiming for.

This is what you're crossing out "different from" for and putting in similar to, a studio split under a different studio. How is this like Marvel Studios? How does this address the problem of incompetent oversight?

Warner Bros. (WB) reorganized in May 2016 to have genre responsible film executives. Thus DC Entertainment franchise films under WB were placed under a newly created division, DC Films, under WB executive vice president Jon Berg and DC chief content officer Geoff Johns. This was done in the same vein as Marvel Studios in unifying DC film making under a single vision and clarify green lighting process.

There was apparently no separate division for DC films until that date. Notice how DC Entertainment is mentioned.

I have made cheap movies that failed to be released. I handled it so badly I can't make any others in that series, ever. Can I argue that those are a bigger failure than the DCEU failing? Since clearly that's a massive failure from start to finish.

The studio spent money on something they didn't make money off of for the sole purpose of holding on to the IP.
I'm sure the filmmakers and actors were leaping with joy after realizing this.

But the main thing you're missing, that I see now with this post, is that you think making a new DCEU 5-10 years from now will make the end of this DCEU less of a failure. You want to endorse them "bouncing back" but keep ignoring the necessary details about what they would be "back" from or to.

Endorsing? No, we were discussing that exact thing.
People keep updating the conditions to a hypothetically cancelled DCEU to justify a straightforward and measurable declaration.

I honestly think they should be printing money and wiping the floor with Marvel, and that's with Marvel being as solid as they are. DC should be that much better. And they are not. It's an historic tank job on their part. Let's hope WW and JL turn this thing around, but that's all we got right now. Hope.

Your post wasn't about Marvel until I brought up the least successful competitors.
I'm still waiting on DC's Dark universe and hope this year is better for them.

 

[Flint Marko]

Well, interconnected franchises in general. Doesn't really matter how often you have to repeat yourself. Cancelling the DCEU in favor of solo endeavors (in favor of solo endeavors because that's what this debate was about) IS not worse than brand limbo or mitigating losses through coproduction or doing anything else possible to not go bankrupt.

Yes it is. Insisting otherwise is not a proper rebuttal and you still have not offered a counterargument to my claims, namely that the sheer scale of the DCEU eclipses any examples you have mentioned thus far. I'm just going to assume you dodging these points means you realize that you're wrong.

They had 3 disappointing movies (no idea Spider-Man 3 costed THAT much).

Spider-man 3 and ASM both made a healthy profit and encouraged Sony to push forward with what they had been doing. So no, just one disappointing movie.

They ended a franchise which at one point had sequels planned before scrapping it for a reboot/remake. A reboot/remake of their most marketable superhero that made as much as the average Phase 2 MCU movie, which is already on top of a large marketing investment. Those trailers and tv spots that gave away most of the movie cost money.

This is you continuing to try and make your original comparison work as opposed to actually addressing the counterargument that I have provided. I'll provide it one more time just so you know where to steer your next post:

WB failing to generate continual interest in a sprawling, interconnected franchise full of the most iconic superheroes at a time when sprawling, interconnected superhero franchises are the hottest thing in Hollywood, particularly when their competition is absolutely mopping the floor with them using a bunch of B and C list characters, and they have all but banked their future as a film studio on these films, would be a failure that eclipses anything that has happened in quite some time, and this includes the failure of any one single film and any of the examples you have brought up thus far. Given the responses here, this is apparently obvious to everyone except for you.

Time Warner had to be bought up.
Dreamworks Animation had to be bought up.
Lionsgate and Summit had to merge as they currently practice "financial discipline"

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but no, none of this "had" to happen. It just happened, businesses acquire/merge with other businesses. This is not any sort of "admission of failure" unless one of these companies was on the verge of bankruptcy. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DA_Champion]

It would be a severe failure for WB/DC to close shop on the current DCEU.

The failure would be forgiven if it were followed up with a successful, rebooted universe that included several good movies.

 

[kguillou]

Exactly, guys, all it takes is one movie to hit that sweet spot and its all good. Some people like to say the sky is falling and that "the damage is done" even if WW and JL are well received. Its a good thing the Fast & Furious franchise didn't stop because of that logic.

 

[Erzengel]

I disagree. It takes more than one movie.

I don't want want it to be 2020 and be like, well at least Wonder Woman was good.

There has to BE consistency.

 

[kguillou]

Lol true, what I meant was it takes one movie to get people back onboard. Of course, that one movie will need to be succeeded by other good movies to keep people onboard.

 

[Erzengel]

I have low expectations, especially considering there's Snyder involvement in like 4 future movies.

 

[writer0327]

WW must be critically well received. It doesn't necessarily have to be a box office smash, and honestly I kind of doubt it will. But it can't be a critical failure. Similarly, JL can't be despised by the masses.

 

[writer0327]

I have low expectations, especially considering there's Snyder involvement in like 4 future movies.

I think everyone has seriously tempered their expectations when it comes to the DCEU. In light of where they are right now, lowered expectations is probably the best thing for DC. No where to go but up.

 

[Godzillasaurus]

^Exactly

I want to see Justice League and any future Superman or Batman films, but I'm expecting nothing too amusing. That said, I did enjoy the action pieces of Dawn of Justice, and actually don't totally hate that one. Was it a mess? Yeah, totally, but I still like it enough.

Perhaps people would be better off if they don't jump the gun and claim that every DCEU film will blow Marvel away after seeing the teaser. That is happening a fifth time now (remember when everybody claimed that DoJ and SS would absolutely kill it after watching the July '15 trailers? Yeah, that's happening with WW and JL too), so just chill and manage your expectations

 

[2kt09]

Yes it is. Insisting otherwise is not a proper rebuttal and you still have not offered a counterargument to my claims, namely that the sheer scale of the DCEU eclipses any examples you have mentioned thus far. I'm just going to assume you dodging these points means you realize that you're wrong.

Spoiler

This is you continuing to try and make your original comparison work as opposed to actually addressing the counterargument that I have provided. I'll provide it one more time just so you know where to steer your next post:

WB failing to generate continual interest in a sprawling, interconnected franchise full of the most iconic superheroes at a time when sprawling, interconnected superhero franchises are the hottest thing in Hollywood, particularly when their competition is absolutely mopping the floor with them using a bunch of B and C list characters, and they have all but banked their future as a film studio on these films, would be a failure that eclipses anything that has happened in quite some time, and this includes the failure of any one single film and any of the examples you have brought up thus far. Given the responses here, this is apparently obvious to everyone except for you.

No, because it's a presumption chock full of glib platitudes. Both of us can go into specifics on "massive failures" yet you only give me the DCEU downfall under my possible assumption of some number of Fant4stic/FFINO's
I'll give you an "optimistic" take of how this goes down:
-movies are moderate successes, but the reviews as well as the bts effort necessary to constantly course-correct become an issue whilst maintaining this shared universe
-so, they drop the continuity and pursue a different approach like one-off features where they find the best writers and directors within their stable to do what they do best with a higher frequency of less than $200 mil budgets
Heck, assume they somehow end up in a similar "profitable" prospect as TASM movies, I'm sure by that point an in-house reboot will have already been in the works

Spider-man 3 and ASM both made a healthy profit and encouraged Sony to push forward with what they had been doing. So no, just one disappointing movie.

As it stands, only the Raimi films would crack WB's top 10 list of highest grossing features, which would still be outdone by the TDK sequels.
TASM makes it to top 20. Those 4 are currently in Sony's top 5 of all time. Since, "scale" was brought up, I guess if your argument is WB would lose more if the DCEU fell yet Sony has even less to fall back on if Spider-Man doesn't do well.
The reason I don't talk about the MCU because they're way past their growing pains stage wherein phase one barely factors in outside of The Avengers.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but no, none of this "had" to happen. It just happened, businesses acquire/merge with other businesses. This is not any sort of "admission of failure" unless one of these companies was on the verge of bankruptcy. Again, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, I can't believe you missed out on the DWA drama (though I guess you'd have seen it more on animation sites)
Plus, the whole brief discussion of WB possibly being bought by FOX.
fun times

 

[Luke234]

It would be a severe failure for WB/DC to close shop on the current DCEU.

The failure would be forgiven if it were followed up with a successful, rebooted universe that included several good movies.

I really feel without Marvel ,MOS and BVS would be really appreciated. I'm not all knowing. Maybe I'm dead wrong.
I just would imagine ,maybe, marvel fans wouldn't care and DC fans would think " Wow. This is definitely different." I think , yes, they would mostly still want something different if they could choose, but would appreciate these two films at least and still enjoy them. I don't think there would be so much anger.
Again, I may be dead wrong.

 

[Flint Marko]

No, because it's a presumption chock full of glib platitudes. Both of us can go into specifics on "massive failures" yet you only give me the DCEU downfall under my possible assumption of some number of Fant4stic/FFINO's

Still dodging. I've continually tried to get you to address "scale" and you have not. Thanks for confirming my assumption.

I'll give you an "optimistic" take of how this goes down:
-movies are moderate successes, but the reviews as well as the bts effort necessary to constantly course-correct become an issue whilst maintaining this shared universe
-so, they drop the continuity and pursue a different approach like one-off features where they find the best writers and directors within their stable to do what they do best with a higher frequency of less than $200 mil budgets
Heck, assume they somehow end up in a similar "profitable" prospect as TASM movies, I'm sure by that point an in-house reboot will have already been in the works

If the movies are moderately successful then they're going to continue making them in the DCEU. Your "optimistic" view is not going to happen and is not the hypothetical end of the DCEU in these discussions.

As it stands, only the Raimi films would crack WB's top 10 list of highest grossing features, which would still be outdone by the TDK sequels.
TASM makes it to top 20. Those 4 are currently in Sony's top 5 of all time. Since, "scale" was brought up, I guess if your argument is WB would lose more if the DCEU fell yet Sony has even less to fall back on if Spider-Man doesn't do well.
The reason I don't talk about the MCU because they're way past their growing pains stage wherein phase one barely factors in outside of The Avengers.

You're getting into Marvin-level of splitting hairs and straying from the original point.

Oh, I can't believe you missed out on the DWA drama (though I guess you'd have seen it more on animation sites)
Plus, the whole brief discussion of WB possibly being bought by FOX.
fun times

So were any of those companies on the verge of collapsing or not? Did the buyout/mergers in question "have" to happen like you said?

 

[2kt09]

Still dodging. I've continually tried to get you to address "scale" and you have not. Thanks for confirming my assumption.

Glad to be of service.

If the movies are moderately successful then they're going to continue making them in the DCEU. Your "optimistic" view is not going to happen and is not the hypothetical end of the DCEU in these discussions.

Definitely not if they're making TASM profits.

So were any of those companies on the verge of collapsing or not? Did the buyout/mergers in question "have" to happen like you said?

Dreamworks Animation was for certain. It was like a headless chicken (desperate for a buyout) because of how much they wasted in having 3-4 movies/year.

 

[kguillou]

You know what would be a weird scenario? If JL STILL gets a lukewarm reception but manages to make more money than DoJ, even cracking a billion due to the spectacle and more "fun" aspects of the film. That would lead to some interesting debates, boy.

 

[DA_Champion]

You know what would be a weird scenario? If JL STILL gets a lukewarm reception but manages to make more money than DoJ, even cracking a billion due to the spectacle and more "fun" aspects of the film. That would lead to some interesting debates, boy.

Seems unikely. Audience goodwill was greatly undermined by BvS.

 

[2kt09]

You know what would be a weird scenario? If JL STILL gets a lukewarm reception but manages to make more money than DoJ, even cracking a billion due to the spectacle and more "fun" aspects of the film. That would lead to some interesting debates, boy.

As long as it's not another case of Suicide Squad.

 

[reverse flash]

Justice league will crack a billion for sure. 1.5 billion dare I say if its received well

 

[kguillou]

Ehhh I dunno about 1.5 but if its a crowd pleasing entertaining movie I could see it hitting a billion despite negative reviews.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I could see JL making less than BvS.

 

[Erzengel]

I'm of the opinion, that if I think that JL is good I want it to do well, if not, I don't want another Suicide Squad scenario.