What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Luke234]

I just realized a problem the DCEU has and it sorta competing with the DCCWU or "Arrowverse" as it were.

Because the DCEU and the Arrowverse are two different entities, they can tell stories with the same character played by different actors. However, the DCEU has to have movies strong enough where the general public would be willing to go to the movie theater and spend money. It has to be very different from the 'Arrowverse' where it doesn't feel like the movie is retreading old plots from the TV shows. And they have to do that with a Hollywood blockbuster budget.

I mean, why should I watch a possible Man of Steel 2, when there's a Supergirl show that has a, well, more 'characterized' Superman in it?

People would go see MOS 2 despite divisive feelings. Most people don't watch Supergirl or the other CW shows. I won't argue characterizations with ya, but just overall the tv shows do have that CW feel to them. Like a mix between a superhero show and Beverly Hills 90210.

 

[Luke234]

I should have said, that was my opinion. Everyone has one.

 

[Luke234]

That's basically what the entire discussion is. Did the movie make enough money, and create enough good will to warrant a sequel? But it's on a much larger scale because this was supposed to launch a franchise.

BvS was WB's second step in trying to create a larger DCCU. The movie itself had all the characters it should have needed to launch a franchise. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc and yet the movie didn't cross into an area that saw it generate the kind of profit the studious were anticipating. So the next step is lets look for some kind of ancillary wins for WB that might signal long term this is still a really good idea.

DCCU is late to the game. Marvel is established. WB needs to evaluate the following: Maybe it was some fatigue that set in. Maybe the fans loved it and we'll sell toys, and DVD's and we can use the positive momentum to justify moving forward. Unfortunately though this is not the case for BvS. The movie took a really enthusiastic fanbase and left them divided.

Now you're left with the following: An average profitable movie, with a divided fanbase. This now means half may decide it's not worth going to see the next film in the theaters, or spend their money on the ancillaries. That leaves a studio must evaluating whether or not to continue down the same path or find a way to course correct. It also puts them in a situation where now not only are the competing with a direct competitor but they are also forced to make-up for the "bad-will" they generated in half of the fan base.

To further complicate matters WB/DC announced a full slate and commitment to their DCCU. Now the question becomes how far down that rabbit hole are they willing to go?

Well put response. I don't think they SHOULD have too much to worry about. They didn't make as much as they wanted but still made a lot of dough despite costs.
I think people would come out in droves again for the next one and continue to. It can't make what Marvel can. I just wish they didn't care about that.
In my opinion, the course correction is what will sink this franchise.

 

[The Guard]

A lot of JUSTICE LEAGUE's box office probably depends on WONDER WOMAN. If WONDER WOMAN is a hit...she's in JUSTICE LEAGUE, too, so...

We shall see.

 

[Erzengel]

This doesn't help most of the summer movies and I'm very interested in how well these will play out.

May 5 GOTG2
May 12 King Arthur (Guy Ritchie)
May 19 Alien: Covenant
May 26 POTC: Dead Men Tell No Tales
June 2 Wonder Woman
June 9 The Mummy
June 16 Cars 3
June 23 Transformers: The Last Knight
June 30 Despicable Me 3
July 7 Spider-Man: Homecoming
July 14 War for the Planet of the Apes
July 21 Dunkirk
July 28 The Dark Tower

GOTG2 could easily steam roll over King Arthur and Alien: Covenant.

Pirates will probably be #1 in it's opening weekend. It's quality or fun factor could effect Wonder Woman.

Not worried about any Tom Cruise movie. But Cars 3 will probably be #1. So Wonder Woman at best will be #1 for 2 weekends?

 

[2kt09]

GOTG2 could easily steam roll over King Arthur and Alien: Covenant.

Sounds about right.

Pirates will probably be #1 in it's opening weekend. It's quality or fun factor could effect Wonder Woman.

Its domestic power is fairly deteriorated. Keeps doing great overseas because there's nothing else like it.

Not worried about any Tom Cruise movie. But Cars 3 will probably be #1. So Wonder Woman at best will be #1 for 2 weekends?

I'm not too sure about Cars 3 because though the teaser was phenomenal, the trailers were far less captivating.
WW's competition is certainly heavier after that 3rd week.

 

[DrCosmic]

URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Comics#DC_Films"]There was apparently no separate division for DC films until that date.[/URL] Notice how DC Entertainment is mentioned.


The studio spent money on something they didn't make money off of for the sole purpose of holding on to the IP.
I'm sure the filmmakers and actors were leaping with joy after realizing this.

Endorsing? No, we were discussing that exact thing.
People keep updating the conditions to a hypothetically cancelled DCEU to justify a straightforward and measurable declaration.

Marvel Studios doesn't have two heads reporting to different people. It's different in a really, really important way (likelihood to make movies by committee). For you to cross out different because it's now genre specific (which Marvel Studios arguably is not) is simply denial.

Wait.. if Fox's only goal was to hold onto the rights then... they were successful. Not a failure at all, actually. The DCEU being Cancelled however is not the goal of WB is it? (Maybe it is, which would explain a lot).

No conditions were updated. The statement that you are trying to not agree with is that the cancellation of the DCEU in favor of focusing exclusively on solo projects would be the biggest failure in Cinema history. You have yet to bring any example of failure that is bigger in any way. Your best idea to avoid the point was to shift to 'complete' failures instead of 'big' failures, but even the failures you brought up weren't complete.

Exactly, guys, all it takes is one movie to hit that sweet spot and its all good. Some people like to say the sky is falling and that "the damage is done" even if WW and JL are well received. Its a good thing the Fast & Furious franchise didn't stop because of that logic.

Examples. If FnF is your example, the fact that they started with a great film and had two of less and less quality changes things, and even then Fast Four being a good film didn't get people back in seats. It wasn't until they brought in fresh blood in Fast Five with The Rock as a great quasi-antagonist that they saved their franchise.

Perhaps that's exactly what the DCEU will do with the Rock for the same effect. But it takes more than one film.

 

[Erzengel]

Sounds about right.


Its domestic power is fairly deteriorated. Keeps doing great overseas because there's nothing else like it.

Pirates 4 as panned as it was still did $250M domestically. In a tight Summer 2017, that would still be a lot.

I'm not too sure about Cars 3 because though the teaser was phenomenal, the trailers were far less captivating.
WW's competition is certainly heavier after that 3rd week.

I'm not too sure about Cars, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Cars 2 did under $200M domestically.

 

[2kt09]

Oh jeez, dragged me back...

Marvel Studios doesn't have two heads reporting to different people. It's different in a really, really important way (likelihood to make movies by committee). For you to cross out different because it's now genre specific (which Marvel Studios arguably is not) is simply denial.

Well, they didn't until recent events, Dr Strange or the next one is supposed to be indicative of that change in who MS reports to.
It's similar in a really, really important way (likelihood of better focus).
I don't recall saying it's genre specific, just that they now have an actual film division specifically meant to manage those DC movies.

Wait.. if Fox's only goal was to hold onto the rights then... they were successful. Not a failure at all, actually. The DCEU being Cancelled however is not the goal of WB is it? (Maybe it is, which would explain a lot).

They were successful in planning and executing massive failures keeping the F4 in perpetual limbo. Corman F4 definitely seemed like a case of not trying, but Fant4stic/FFINO was far more of an unintended disaster that they attempted to right.

No conditions were updated. The statement that you are trying to not agree with is that the cancellation of the DCEU in favor of focusing exclusively on solo projects would be the biggest failure in Cinema history. You have yet to bring any example of failure that is bigger in any way. Your best idea to avoid the point was to shift to 'complete' failures instead of 'big' failures, but even the failures you brought up weren't complete.

Yeah, it wouldn't.
Not avoid, my argument is based on how it affected those IP's. One you know not the direction of beyond in 6 years they might contractually try again, whilst the other necessitated competing studios to work together for another reboot. When the DCEU is cancelled in favor of solo projects, WB/DC is still the one in charge of it and you're made aware of what's next.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Well put response. I don't think they SHOULD have too much to worry about. They didn't make as much as they wanted but still made a lot of dough despite costs.
I think people would come out in droves again for the next one and continue to. It can't make what Marvel can. I just wish they didn't care about that.
In my opinion, the course correction is what will sink this franchise.

QFT, a lot of people liked their adult super hero films and if they would stop chasing Marvel they could relish in their success.

 

[Luke234]

QFT, a lot of people liked their adult super hero films and if they would stop chasing Marvel they could relish in their success.

Yeah, I feel since the very beginning it was said over and over how DC is copying Marvel. I never thought this was true.
But as soon as I heard their own people ( was it Johns?) insulting Snyder with his cinematic flourishes comment I felt, " ok, now they're gonna blow it."
Even if they didn't like aspects he was referring to, that's disrespectful and playing in the dirt. It wasn't said in the worst way but you shouldn't talk bad about your own team, even when you think they're wrong. ( That's just how I feel)
Saying "we heard the bell" or something like that sounds bad to me. I will give them a shot with Wonder Woman and probably Justice League . But if Wonder Woman is too light and cheesy I'm not even sure.

 

[Luke234]

I should say it sounds bad to me.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I never knew Johns bad mouthed Zack, that really sux. I really hope WB gave Zack a raise after what they put him through in 2016.
BTW I though GJ was involved in BvS and was helping Zack.

 

[Superchan]

I never knew Johns bad mouthed Zack, that really sux. I really hope WB gave Zack a raise after what they put him through in 2016.
BTW I though GJ was involved in BvS and was helping Zack.

LOL for what exactly? Delivering an under-performing crap pile like BvS?

 

[kguillou]

Marvel Studios doesn't have two heads reporting to different people. It's different in a really, really important way (likelihood to make movies by committee). For you to cross out different because it's now genre specific (which Marvel Studios arguably is not) is simply denial.

Wait.. if Fox's only goal was to hold onto the rights then... they were successful. Not a failure at all, actually. The DCEU being Cancelled however is not the goal of WB is it? (Maybe it is, which would explain a lot).

No conditions were updated. The statement that you are trying to not agree with is that the cancellation of the DCEU in favor of focusing exclusively on solo projects would be the biggest failure in Cinema history. You have yet to bring any example of failure that is bigger in any way. Your best idea to avoid the point was to shift to 'complete' failures instead of 'big' failures, but even the failures you brought up weren't complete.



Examples. If FnF is your example, the fact that they started with a great film and had two of less and less quality changes things, and even then Fast Four being a good film didn't get people back in seats. It wasn't until they brought in fresh blood in Fast Five with The Rock as a great quasi-antagonist that they saved their franchise.

Perhaps that's exactly what the DCEU will do with the Rock for the same effect. But it takes more than one film.

The first four F&F films were critically panned. The first F&F garnered strong a niche fan base and made a profit but critics werent kind to it and it wasn't until the fifth film where the series found a way to have mass appeal and please critics. People have short memories and will flock to something that deserves it, bottom line.

 

[smallville fan]

Bumping for Ben Affleck backing down from directing Batman.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The further we go along and the larger the hole they are digging for themselves, the closer it will be until the point that there is no way out without a complete reboot.

 

[smallville fan]

I think we reached that point already. Maybe Flash could reboot the universe since they are starting all the way at page one.

 

[TheVileOne]

Marvel Studios doesn't have two heads reporting to different people. It's different in a really, really important way (likelihood to make movies by committee). For you to cross out different because it's now genre specific (which Marvel Studios arguably is not) is simply denial.

Wait.. if Fox's only goal was to hold onto the rights then... they were successful. Not a failure at all, actually. The DCEU being Cancelled however is not the goal of WB is it? (Maybe it is, which would explain a lot).

No conditions were updated. The statement that you are trying to not agree with is that the cancellation of the DCEU in favor of focusing exclusively on solo projects would be the biggest failure in Cinema history. You have yet to bring any example of failure that is bigger in any way. Your best idea to avoid the point was to shift to 'complete' failures instead of 'big' failures, but even the failures you brought up weren't complete.



Examples. If FnF is your example, the fact that they started with a great film and had two of less and less quality changes things, and even then Fast Four being a good film didn't get people back in seats. It wasn't until they brought in fresh blood in Fast Five with The Rock as a great quasi-antagonist that they saved their franchise.

Perhaps that's exactly what the DCEU will do with the Rock for the same effect. But it takes more than one film.

Actually, the fourth film did even better business than the original.

 

[Spade]

The problem with a full scale reboot is the assumption that the ones in charge know what's gone wrong. If you ask Deborah Snyder, Batman v. Superman was panned because people don't like seeing their heroes deconstructed...which is not at all why that movie was panned. I read the whole on-set interview with Zack on Justice League and still can't tell if he knows why it's so disliked. The heads of Warner Bros. apparently believe Snyder will do great on Justice League because it has less plot and darkness. That's their actual reasoning. If they reset everything, what's the guarantee they'll get it right? I'd rather they try to get a few good works out there and consider a reboot down the line than hit the button now and keep hoping for the best.

 

[TheVileOne]

There's no easy answer or solution to any of this.

 

[harlequinade]

The problem with a full scale reboot is the assumption that the ones in charge know what's gone wrong. If you ask Deborah Snyder, Batman v. Superman was panned because people don't like seeing their heroes deconstructed...which is not at all why that movie was panned. I read the whole on-set interview with Zack on Justice League and still can't tell if he knows why it's so disliked. The heads of Warner Bros. apparently believe Snyder will do great on Justice League because it has less plot and darkness. That's their actual reasoning. If they reset everything, what's the guarantee they'll get it right? I'd rather they try to get a few good works out there and consider a reboot down the line than hit the button now and keep hoping for the best.

They don't learn from their mistakes. So I don't think there is a solution. I just don't understand how so many people could have made so many bad decisions.

 

[baerrtt]

The problem with a full scale reboot is the assumption that the ones in charge know what's gone wrong. If you ask Deborah Snyder, Batman v. Superman was panned because people don't like seeing their heroes deconstructed...which is not at all why that movie was panned. I read the whole on-set interview with Zack on Justice League and still can't tell if he knows why it's so disliked. The heads of Warner Bros. apparently believe Snyder will do great on Justice League because it has less plot and darkness. That's their actual reasoning. If they reset everything, what's the guarantee they'll get it right? I'd rather they try to get a few good works out there and consider a reboot down the line than hit the button now and keep hoping for the best.

Imo the Snyders are fully aware why BVS was panned....however it's unlikely you'll get a lot of directors admit publically 'Hey I made a **** movie'.

 

[BH/HHH]

Ok I have my opinion in Affleck leaving Batman as director and it's nowhere near the doom and gloom as everyone's reporting.

But let's put that to one side and have a frank honest discussion love or hate the DCEU let's say WBs abandons it.

Then what? Reboot the DCU? Wait years? Which films do you start with? Recast all the roles?

I'm honestly interested to get some real answers here and see what people's ideas are (hopefully without been snarky or bashing what we currently have)

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Ok I have my opinion in Affleck leaving Batman as director and it's nowhere near the doom and gloom as everyone's reporting.

But let's put that to one side and have a frank honest discussion love or hate the DCEU let's say WBs abandons it.

Then what? Reboot the DCU? Wait years? Which films do you start with? Recast all the roles?

I'm honestly interested to get some real answers here and see what people's ideas are (hopefully without been snarky or bashing what we currently have)

well, yes. wait a couple of years. make use of the time to plan the whole thing through. think about the goals they want to accomplish (asside from making tons of money), settle on a tone and a vision. map out how to get from A to B, what is needed, what is to be avoided. learn from what they did wrong (which is a lot). and when (if) they have figured that out, then get talent on board that share the vision, share a love for the characters (without the need to deconstruct them) and start new. have a concept first.