What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Flint Marko]

With or without Campea's "scoop" about Affleck getting cold feet, I felt in my gut that the most we were going to get out of Affleck was one solo Batman movie along with his appearances in Justice League, particularly after the poor reception the DCEU has garnered thus far. They really backed themselves into a corner by hiring him given that he's an older actor with a lot of other stuff on his plate, so he was never going to be able to devote as much time to the role as a lot of fans, myself included, would like. Personally I think that he does probably want to get out of the contract, but there's no way WB would let that happen. We're going to get him under the cowl at least one more time.

 

[Jekecy]

One could argue that Hoechlin was widely praised so it's not that hard to bring kal into the modern age.

Even if you did count Tyler, that's 20+ years of a divisive Superman gracing the screens. I can't recall any other character who has been given that many chances with such consistent blowback in its iterations. Only reason it gets those shots is because it's Superman. Anyone else and he would've been shelved indefinitely.

At the end of the day if Cap, Thor, Guardians, Strange, Antman and even Ironman (who until 2008 was B-superhero at best) can be done right then you can bet your doughnuts and dollars that superman can too.

Not really comparable as none of them hold the iconic status Supes does. Clearly everyone has a set idea of who he's supposed to be and it hasn't really hit a homerun in a long while. For whatever reason Bats can get away with varying and multiple takes, but Supes continues to drift further and further away from popularity. It's sad, but Caps has usurped him as the modern day superhero boyscout.

They really backed themselves into a corner by hiring him given that he's an older actor with a lot of other stuff on his plate, so he was never going to be able to devote as much time to the role as a lot of fans, myself included, would like.

That would've been accounted for well before final papers were signed. They were betting on a prosperous start, and combined with Ben's renowned credibility it should have skyrocketed them going into 2017.

If Ben leaves, it's 100% because he does not want a repeat of Daredevil. He knows all too well how bad a slippery slope can just drag your name through the mud for years. He got out of it once, barely. And it took a long time to clear his name. Don't care how big of a bat-fan you are, if you see smoke a mile away, I'd be saving my career if I was already at a bright spot before signing on.

 

[TheVileOne]

On one level I can't blame Affleck. On the other hand...this is what he signed up for.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I don't think everyone has a different idea of what Superman should be. The most celebrated versions of the character are all somewhat similar (STAS, Reeve and Hoechlin are all well respected by fans) the approaches that haven't gotten as much praise have been gloomy and gotten away from the essence of the character (Routh and Cavill).

 

[Dasher10]

Wow. First The Flash starts falling apart. Now Batman is. The Flash was recently canceled. I'm hearing rumors that Cyborg may also be canceled. Now I feel like if Ben Affleck leaves, then it's all over.

I also read the reports about Wonder Woman and Justice League. DC messed up and they need to reboot. I knew that this was going to happen after seeing DC rush in to Justice League before setting up solo films as a way of giving Zach Snyder creative control over who gets cast in what role. Snyder wound up with too much clout at the studio and ruined Lex Luthor. He's still involved as a producer in most of the films so he's still calling the shots although he thankfully has Geoff Johns and Kevin Tsujihara outranking him and Roven did get fired. Right now the only film in active production is Aquaman and that hits a year after Justice League.

DC need to scrap their universe and focus on TV before rebooting. Cancel Gotham and replace it with an Arrowverse Batman show and change Supergirl into a Superman and Supergirl team-up show titled "Metropolis." Give Wonder Woman her own show with Aquaman as a supporting character like Black Canary is on Arrow, Martian Manhunter is on Supergirl and Firestorm is on Flash. Complement it with a Green Lantern animated series set in space in the same universe and have whoever play the Earth Lanterns still cast as live action actors for brief cameos. That's a perfect TV universe right there. WB owns HBO so there's no excuse to not do some of these on that network. I feel like a gritty TVMA-rated live-action Batman series could work well as something really serialized with a mystery unfolding over a whole season. That's what should be done on HBO. Put Wonder Woman on CW and then put Green Lantern on CW Seed. Scrap Shazam and Dark Universe entirely and introduce Cyborg on Metropolis. That's a perfect shared live-action DCU. Maybe if Batman takes off on HBO do Swamp Thing as a second HBO series.

I'm already hearing that Sandman is going to be done on TV. Make that part of the Arrowverse and put it on HBO as well.

Reboot on film when the Arrowverse has run its course some time in the late 2020s. Stick to Vertigo adaptations on film starting with Fables, Transmetropolitan and The Invisibles.

 

[Spade]

That the rumor even sounds plausible speaks bounds about the state of the project, and DC cinema in general.

I don't think everyone has a different idea of what Superman should be. The most celebrated versions of the character are all somewhat similar (STAS, Reeve and Hoechlin are all well respected by fans) the approaches that haven't gotten as much praise have been gloomy and gotten away from the essence of the character (Routh and Cavill).

Neither of those two were treated much like characters at all, but as philosophical quandaries. Hollywood's been so interested in the societal implications of Nietzsche's Overman (which isn't Superman) that it's lost sight of Clark as a person. It's why almost no new Superman fans are made by these films.

 

[STARMAN]

The problem isn't the character it's the approach.

 

[The Guard]

There's never going to be any chance for WB to right the ship if people don't give them the chance to do so.

I swear, it's like people are just not willing to actually wait for the next DCEU film to come out and see if WB learned anything or changed their approach at all. Even the attempts to make sure they're NOT making mistakes are spun into "The sky is falling!"

 

[Jekecy]

There's never going to be any chance for WB to right the ship if people don't give them the chance to do so.

If you exclude the Dark Knight trilogy, there's a loooong history of divisive or outright horrid productions by WB dating back to the 80s. There really is little argument for people not giving them a chance, most especially when the last 2 flicks alone grossed nearly 2 billion dollars. At what point do fans and the general populace allowed to checkout until they've been convinced the wrongs have been righted?

 

[Spade]

The product will speak for itself. If it's good, none of this panic will matter. That said, it's hard for anyone to ignore behind the scenes turmoil when it's happening across the board and so frequently.

 

[Flint Marko]

Even the attempts to make sure they're NOT making mistakes are spun into "The sky is falling!"

It's good that they're throwing out scripts they aren't confident in and/or going with a different director who will be better suited for the task, but it's only further evidence that there is a considerable mess to be sorted out behind the scenes and it's made considerably worse when you realize it's become something of a pattern. Theres no "spin" here. I'm not saying that the sky is falling but it's more than fair for us to acknowledge that this universe is in poor shape, and the revolving door of directors/screenwriters is a sign of that.

 

[Batmannerism]

It's good that they're throwing out scripts they aren't confident in and/or going with a different director who will be better suited for the task, but it's only further evidence that there is a considerable mess to be sorted out behind the scenes and it's made considerably worse when you realize it's become something of a pattern. Theres no "spin" here. I'm not saying that the sky is falling but it's more than fair for us to acknowledge that this universe is in poor shape, and the revolving door of directors/screenwriters is a sign of that.

I think DC are better off to hold off on projects that are having internal difficulties. Not only are they going to get hammered by critics, but competition from a superior Marvel product is going to hammer them at the box office.

Maybe DC should lie low on the big screen for a while, and stick to making enjoyable CW shows - because at the cinema there's no contest for Marvel, who seem to be on a roll, and going from strength to strength.

They should do a solo Bat film or two, just to keep him current and then wait for marvel's top line up of characters' contracts to run
out. So really, wait until 2025. I say that kind of tongue in cheek, but also kind of not.

Also I feel like a lot of today's critics are very much bandwagon jumpers, with obvious biases against actors who have fallen out of favor in Hollywood.
It's almost like Nic Cage and Adam Sandler could make the Godfather (I mean a movie of comparable quality) and the critics would still slam them.

Don't get me wrong, critics of B v S and SS were right on the money, I'm not defending crappy film-making, but I do feel as if once a certain critical threshold is reached, it's very hard to come back from.

I'm nervous about WW because I don't, and never have, believed that GG has the acting chops to pull it off. I'm nervous about JL, because Snyder's in charge and doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

DC should do Superman a solid by having a solo Tyler Hoechlin tv series, before the moment passes, and lap up the adulation it would get (and then turn that into a movie later on).

 

[Superchan]

Even if you did count Tyler, that's 20+ years of a divisive Superman gracing the screens. I can't recall any other character who has been given that many chances with such consistent blowback in its iterations. Only reason it gets those shots is because it's Superman. Anyone else and he would've been shelved indefinitely.

Not exactly the TV superman were all well received ranging starting with Newton to G. Christopher to Cain to Welling and finally (for now) Hoechlin it's the 2 big screen supermen that haven't been raved about and even then most people seem to like Cavill and like(d) Routh but didn't feel that superman was given enough to seem appealing.

Not really comparable as none of them hold the iconic status Supes does. Clearly everyone has a set idea of who he's supposed to be and it hasn't really hit a homerun in a long while. For whatever reason Bats can get away with varying and multiple takes, but Supes continues to drift further and further away from popularity. It's sad, but Caps has usurped him as the modern day superhero boyscout.

Don't you see though that's my point! If you can make B and C list superheroes can be done right then why not the grand daddy of them all.

Batman hasn't gotten away with anything, B&R destroyed him and Nolan revived him because simply put the Schumacher's take was a joke and Nolan's take hit the bull's eye. Like any character Batman hits when done right and fails when done badly.

Sadly I agree with you, Cap has usurped superman....for now! And rightfully so cos Cap's last 2 films were some of the best in the genre while superman's were....well were not!

 

[TheVileOne]

There's never going to be any chance for WB to right the ship if people don't give them the chance to do so.

I swear, it's like people are just not willing to actually wait for the next DCEU film to come out and see if WB learned anything or changed their approach at all. Even the attempts to make sure they're NOT making mistakes are spun into "The sky is falling!"

How many chances should they get?

 

[harlequinade]

There's never going to be any chance for WB to right the ship if people don't give them the chance to do so.

I swear, it's like people are just not willing to actually wait for the next DCEU film to come out and see if WB learned anything or changed their approach at all. Even the attempts to make sure they're NOT making mistakes are spun into "The sky is falling!"

How many chances is the multimillion dollar company supposed to be given after releasing 3 at best mediocre movies, giving Sirens to Ayer and the mess that The Batman pre-production is becoming?

It's the studio who is supposed to attract the audience. The audience is not supposed to be applauding the studio which constantly disappoints.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Whether Affleck leaving is true or not, this doesn't bode well for the DCEU.

 

[FunkMiller]

How many chances should they get?

They've got one more. It's Wonder Woman shaped.

If that isn't a home run? If it's of the same quality as BvS and SS? Oh, boy. The knives will really come out. The release of Justice League would be the dampest squib in movie history.

 

[MbJ]

Was Wonder Woman already shooting when the changes in policy were instituted? Because I swear I remember Gal Gadot initially saying in interviews the movie would be dark, which is completely at odds with the recent interviews that had the director claiming it'd be hopeful and optimistic like the old 77 Superman film.

If not then it bodes well but if it already was then they run the risk of this turning out like Suicide Squad, where the movie had a vision that was then hastily hacked apart to make something more audience-friendly.

 

[FunkMiller]

Was Wonder Woman already shooting when the changes in policy were instituted? Because I swear I remember Gal Gadot initially saying in interviews the movie would be dark, which is completely at odds with the recent interviews that had the director claiming it'd be hopeful and optimistic like the old 77 Superman film.

If not then it bodes well but if it already was then they run the risk of this turning out like Suicide Squad, where the movie had a vision that was then hastily hacked apart to make something more audience-friendly.

WAY before. It was shooting before BvS came out. In fact, I believe it finished principal photography before BvS came out.

 

[Erzengel]

Which is why I'm not totally jazzed about WW.

 

[Boom]

Yeah, I admittedly have a bad feeling about it.

 

[MbJ]

That's why I'm thinking Justice League may be the actual test to see if these changes have actually turned things around.

 

[FunkMiller]

Which is why I'm not totally jazzed about WW.

Yep. It was conceived, written and filmed all when WB thought they had a winner with Batman V Superman.

That's why I'm thinking Justice League may be the actual test to see if these changes have actually turned things around.

That's not likely to be good enough. If WW goes the same way as BvS and SS, then I can't see people hanging around until November to see if JL 'rights the ship'. The writing will be on the wall.

Right now things are looking dicey - can you imagine what it'll be like in June if WW is under 30% on Rotten Tomatoes, and opens to less money than MoS?

 

[STARMAN]

JL is the key. If WW is solid but is quickly followed up by a poorly received JL movie then they will still have no positive momentum.

 

[MbJ]

Yep. It was conceived, written and filmed all when WB thought they had a winner with Batman V Superman.



That's not likely to be good enough. If WW goes the same way as BvS and SS, then I can't see people hanging around until November to see if JL 'rights the ship'. The writing will be on the wall.

Right now things are looking dicey - can you imagine what it'll be like in June if WW is under 30% on Rotten Tomatoes, and opens to less money than MoS?

I didn't mean in terms of actually saving the franchise, I just meant in quality. It would be ironic if JL does turn out to be a genuinely good movie but just comes too little too late.