What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Milk Tray Guy]

I mean look at the X-Men after Origins. First Class, the Wolverine, DOFP, Deadpool, Apocalypse and Logan. In 7 years, they've been able to turn things around.

Very, very true.

 

[Erzengel]

Correction. 8 years since Origins. However, 6 releases later and I at least can say that Fox has righted the ship.

I think DCEU would have to put out more than just "average" performances in their next few releases to say they turned it around. One movie doesn't do it, even if it's the second coming of TDK. Consistency is important.

 

[Grommers]

That isn't the same situation at all. Batman Begins actually shows the damage that poorly received films, even starring popular characters, can do. People didn't like Batman & Robin, so they didn't show up for Batman Begins and it underperformed. We've also seen this after The Phantom Menace and after countless other widely disliked blockbusters.

BvS has way more in common with Batman & Robin than Batman Begins.

I don't see that at all - B vs S wasn't looked upon even remotely close to the quality of Batman & Robin.

A lot of Batman Begins that made it so difficult was the Marketing wasn't there, Christopher Nolan was a relatively new director with only Memento and Insomnia under his belt, and wasn't tested. There was a lot more to the reason why Batman Begins didn't really excel at the box office, but was still able to bounce back. It wasn't because of "Great reviews" from Rotten Tomatoes, but the fact that fan base actually enjoyed the work and felt the need to own the DVD.

Same is going for B vs S, I still know a lot of people who purchased the movie, which means the community is there..just needs time to grow and people to jump on the band wagon, and many more are.

 

[Erzengel]

Does the lot of people you know equal the lot of people I know who were disappointed by the movie who didn't purchase it?

 

[Grommers]

I dunno - Who do you know? And DVD sales numbers prove more people rather see B vs S again than Civil War..so, yes, I would say it is equal too or greater than.

 

[Erzengel]

So the Dvd that was released 2 months later made slightly more? So if those stats are updated, The results could be different?

 

[Timebomb]

There was this one guy in the BVS thread that said he bought around 10 copies of the BVS DVD to support it. Really!

 

[batfreakforever]

There was this one guy in the BVS thread that said he bought around 10 copies of the BVS DVD to support it. Really!

I do have a few versions of BvS on blu ray. Digi book with special cover (unopened). Batman steelbook (unopened). Graphic novel blu ray (is the one I use). Then I brought the ultimate edition with just the Ultimate cut on google play to keep on my phone.
I didnt buy them to support them I just couldnt choose so I got a few.
So thats 4 times.
No different to buying star wars or special editions of loved movies again.
Well actually my GF got an edition before I got the edition I wanted and another family memeber brought another for me when it was on special.
So I only really brought 2 copies. The graphic novel BR and the Ultimate edition code on google play.

 

[BH/HHH]

There was this one guy in the BVS thread that said he bought around 10 copies of the BVS DVD to support it. Really!

I'm sure it happens with everything. It's something I disagree with strongly. I remember a girl at my school used to by 7 copies of every Westlife single to get them to number 1.

 

[Flint Marko]

The second number is if it made 800 million roughly, 250 million for production, even 200 million for marketting / distribution etc.

That still leaves 350 million, yes Civil war pulled in much more from the box office, but in no way is it being close to a failure.

BvS had over two months head start on CW in home media sales. But even so, given the actual numbers you've given me it's clear that CW is selling better as it has made almost the same amount of money as BvS in less time. So you've actually disproven your own point. The only DCEU movie to sell notably well on home media so far is MoS, but that's been surpassed by a 2014 MCU release (Guardians of the Galaxy).

Your box office breakdown is also incorrect. Theaters keep about half of the money, and it's even more for overseas theaters, so you have that to factor in as well as backend deals to certain actors/producers and a myriad of other things that they won't release publicly. They still made money, but it wasn't anywhere close to $350 million in straight profit.

 

[Drseuss]

It starts with a first step.

Put out a movie that's at least consensus wise "good". I'm not even confident that they can put out a "top tier" one yet. Then try and string a few of those together.

I mean look at the X-Men after Origins. First Class, the Wolverine, DOFP, Deadpool, Apocalypse and Logan. In 7 years, they've been able to turn things around.

Some fanboys have been 'boycotting' xmen since first class, but guess what, Logan is still going strong regardless.

Same situation for DC universe. A few stinkers aren't gonna stop any franchise in Hollywood.

 

[Zarex]

I don't see that at all - B vs S wasn't looked upon even remotely close to the quality of Batman & Robin.

A lot of Batman Begins that made it so difficult was the Marketing wasn't there, Christopher Nolan was a relatively new director with only Memento and Insomnia under his belt, and wasn't tested. There was a lot more to the reason why Batman Begins didn't really excel at the box office, but was still able to bounce back. It wasn't because of "Great reviews" from Rotten Tomatoes, but the fact that fan base actually enjoyed the work and felt the need to own the DVD.

Same is going for B vs S, I still know a lot of people who purchased the movie, which means the community is there..just needs time to grow and people to jump on the band wagon, and many more are.

We had an example just recently of a comic book movie that was a hit at the BO despite awful critical reviews in TMNT. The 2014 film earned nearly $500M in world wide BO grosses. It beat out GOTG in its second week. It was a huge hit and fans loved it!

Well, not really, because those fans refused to show up for the sequel. The follow up, despite garnering better reviews, cratered at the BO. The concern for WB is that the Batman and Superman fans who were thrilled to watch the two classic characters meet up on the big screen alongside Wonder Woman may have already climbed off of the bandwagon.

Deadline does an annual profit calculation which should be coming out soon. And while BvS may have cleaned up on DVD and streaming sales, it likely didn't make much of anything at the BO. Using BO Mojo's numbers and assuming a 50%, 40%, 25% split for Domestic, Foreign and China, respectively, WB's total take for the film was around $368M. If marketing costs were half of the reported budget, total costs were $375M.

 

[Grommers]

BvS had over two months head start on CW in home media sales. But even so, given the actual numbers you've given me it's clear that CW is selling better as it has made almost the same amount of money as BvS in less time. So you've actually disproven your own point. The only DCEU movie to sell notably well on home media so far is MoS, but that's been surpassed by a 2014 MCU release (Guardians of the Galaxy).

Your box office breakdown is also incorrect. Theaters keep about half of the money, and it's even more for overseas theaters, so you have that to factor in as well as backend deals to certain actors/producers and a myriad of other things that they won't release publicly. They still made money, but it wasn't anywhere close to $350 million in straight profit.

The first part is kind of an odd one because it doesn't take into affect that majority of sales will be holiday sales, you won't see CW all of a sudden have another burst of sales and should maintain similar numbers to B vs S as most businesses tend to reach below average expectations in the early months (January February), and movies won't pick back up again.

And yes, I figured it wasn't straight profit but it would be a "crap" ton of money, it's more so that I'm arguing that there isn't any credibility to this "DCEU" is doomed narrative that people keep trying to portray. Although, I'll be honest, I'm never sure if people actually understand how they are coming across as and just have poor linguistic skills or they really truly do believe there is no hope.

 

[_Superman_]

Honestly if the DC/WB want to do some good to move forward then they should start putting the focus and effort into their other heroes and just give the Bat-Family a rest. Personally that's what I think they should do because the they have such a great stable of heroes and all you hear about is Batman this and Batman that. I understand that Batman does bring in money but in the same he doesn't need to be the focus of all the movies or in every movie. I Honestly believe that you could put out an animated Flash, GL, WW, or Aquaman movie and not have Batman in it and it will do well. Just like how I think JL dark would've been much better without Batman as well. I also think the WB should've waited on doing SvB and should've made a Man of Steel sequel and continue the plans with the Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman first before making SvB. Then use the ending of SvB as it is already being done as the launching point for JL. However I don't see anything like that being done anytime soon.

 

[Erzengel]

The first part is kind of an odd one because it doesn't take into affect that majority of sales will be holiday sales, you won't see CW all of a sudden have another burst of sales and should maintain similar numbers to B vs S as most businesses tend to reach below average expectations in the early months (January February), and movies won't pick back up again.

And yes, I figured it wasn't straight profit but it would be a "crap" ton of money, it's more so that I'm arguing that there isn't any credibility to this "DCEU" is doomed narrative that people keep trying to portray. Although, I'll be honest, I'm never sure if people actually understand how they are coming across as and just have poor linguistic skills or they really truly do believe there is no hope.

The Amazing Spider-Man 2 had a $230M production budget. Let's use the rule of 2 for marketing and say the overall budget is $460M. It's total gross was $708M. While you would assume their profit would be $248M, based on the Sony leaks, they only made $65M in profit.

The Force Awakens had a production budget of $245M. Again, let's assume with marketing, it's $490M with a gross of $2.068B. Deadline posted they made over $900M which is less than what you would assume $1.578B (2.068B - 490M).

So saying BvS made $350M would probably be anywhere between $150M and $211M.

And if WB was satisfied with those numbers, they wouldn't have done what they did to SS, brought in Johns and shake up their release dates.

 

[Grommers]

What did they do to SS?

And bringing in Johns was a smart move...if you think of Zack Snyder as DC's "Whedon"

I wouldn't be surprised if he felt he couldnt focus on both aspects of that business...thats development, and not "panic"

Which shake ups are you referring too for release dates?

 

[BH/HHH]

Release dates were never actually confirmed. All movie studios have tentative release dates for movies, they don't always stick to them.

 

[Erzengel]

The tonal shift and inclusion of humor in SS reshoots after the release of Batman v. Superman.

In 2013, there were a dozen DC movies announced? They released, BvS, SS and are releasing WW, JL and probably Aquaman. Everything else has been pushed back with no official release dates.

If you want to say they aren't panicking and that the whole DCEU isn't doomed that's fine, but if you don't think that things haven't changed in the DCEU and with WB because the reaction to BvS, then we ain't going to agree.

Are there really some of you, who think, everything is proceeding as WB has wanted it to?

 

[Supa]

Money is obviously a huge factor for a movie to be successful, but I don't think it's the only one that matters. Critical and audience response is another important factor, and BvS fell short on both.

And those can't be overlooked, because BvS wasn't just a singular movie. If it was, then maybe it wouldn't be so bad as long as they made some profit on it. It was meant to be the foundation of a whole cinematic universe. They have like half a decade of releases that are supposed to follow up on this, millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of production time and talent. WB's big start to all that was controversial with audiences and won razzies with critics.

What's gonna happen when the hype of seeing Batman and Superman together stops being enough to pull in audiences?

 

[_Superman_]

The tonal shift and inclusion of humor in SS reshoots after the release of Batman v. Superman.

In 2013, there were a dozen DC movies announced? They released, BvS, SS and are releasing WW, JL and probably Aquaman. Everything else has been pushed back with no official release dates.

If you want to say they aren't panicking and that the whole DCEU isn't doomed that's fine, but if you don't think that things haven't changed in the DCEU and with WB because the reaction to BvS, then we ain't going to agree.

Are there really some of you, who think, everything is proceeding as WB has wanted it to?

Oh I agree with you on some aspects. But I blame the WB more than Snyder for the reaction to SvB. I think that if the WB released the Ultimate Cut of the movie instead of making him cut the film and make it more of a Batman movie than I think the movie might have been better received.

You can't make a Superman/Batman movie and then cut out most of Superman's scenes like they did and expect to keep the movie the same. The heart of that movie was Superman and the WB cut that out in favor of Batman which is sad but understandable because to them it's business as usual.

 

[Erzengel]

How much better do you think BvS UC would have been received?

 

[_Superman_]

How much better do you think BvS UC would have been received?

I honestly can't say. I can only speak from my opinion but I just think it would've been better received than the TC. You can't cut 30 min out of a movie and expect it to be the same movie Kingdom of Heaven has proven that.

 

[Erzengel]

I guess I'm just curious if fans think it would have got to $1B, or be 70% on RT. I thought the UC was slightly better but didn't address a lot of the story issues I had.

 

[_Superman_]

I guess I'm just curious if fans think it would have got to $1B, or be 70% on RT. I thought the UC was better but didn't address a lot of the story issues I had.

I wouldn't go that far mainly because people think Superman should be widely accepted and shouldn't question himself. While I like that if you do put Superman in the real world that people would question him and would feel distrust to a man with that much power. I also like the fact that they made Superman feel more human. I also don't get why people complain out Superman and Batman not being buddies from the start when if you read the Batman has in his first meetings with Superman has always not trusted him and they were usually at odds at first.

 

[Erzengel]

Not being buddies or not trusting him and wanting to murder him are not exactly similar.