The Amazing Spider-Man 2 What villain would you like to see in Amazing Spider-man 2?

[Zucaro]

**** Avi, he'll be blowing every single Spidey flick once they're filming, just like Spider-Man 3... Avi wanted Venom-- Sam wanted Vulture and Sandman

 

[Jick]

What two movies?

I don't think that's decided yet, but apparently he's contractually forced to do two movies, the same way that Hugo Weaving is obliged to come back for another Marvel movie, even though he doesn't want to.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Maybe because he was turning back into human,we see his human form in the sewer in that deleted scene

But that doesn't matter now since it was a deleted scene as much as Dr. Ratha ISN'T dead since he died only in a deleted scene.

I am not making excuses,that how I actually felt when I first saw the scene

But that is a HUGE excuse. And now we've even seen a deleted scene of Lizard in the bathroom where he DOESN'T eat those two girls.

Thats because he was turning back
Why does he visit the school if he didnt want to kill Peter in the first place,what does words like 'You wont come in between my plans anymore,Peter Parker' means?

And...he's only turning back in the deleted scene, not with the theatrical cut we saw.

And how do you know the ones removed in Sm3 made more sense?
And you are missing the point,you made it seem like director dont generally film alternate scene
A lot of them do,they decide later what to put into the movie,they mostly make the correct choice,maybe Raimi made the wrong choice? and it had nothing to do with Arad

How do I know? I own the novelization of Spider-Man 3. I know that the filmed scenes fit accordingly to the novelization. And how the hell would you think a much longer scene of Eddie Brock and Flint Marko meeting and teaming up wouldn't be better than some crappy 43 second clip? Lol.

And not once have I ever said directors don't film alternate scenes, only that the case with alternate scenes, the films for Spider-Man have had the worst luck in that case. Too much of a coincidence now to say it's the director's fault.

Maybe but that doesnt prove that Arad had to do anything with it

The proof we do know is that Avi Arad has always been a pushy producer with Sam Raimi. So it definitely does linger that Arad does have the power in changing scenes/taking them out/etc.

They wouldnt remove such a major scene if they wanted to shave time off

The Incredible Hulk says otherwise. Heck, a fellow Spidey film, S-M 3, says otherwise.

The scene doesnt hint strongly at a changed origin and if thats the case,why was the bathroom scene removed aswell? Especially after showing it at the comic con

The line from Dr. Ratha greatly alludes to Richard having tested on Peter, but speaking of the bathroom scene...Lizard isn't even eating those two girls in that scene anymore. So that once again destroys the censor board theory, now doesn't it?

Still better than 'Hey that scene was ****,I bet Arad had something to with it'

That scene was what? S**t? That scene was actually good, haha.

And when we've known the past with Spider-Man 3, then we know what Avi Arad could have done.

It wasnt fine,it was a ****** script.

Actually, no, it wasn't. It was a fine script and only the theatrical cut makes it seem like the script is utter garbage.

 

[spider-neil]

**** Avi, he'll be blowing every single Spidey flick once they're filming, just like Spider-Man 3... Avi wanted Venom-- Sam wanted Vulture and Sandman

I think the movie would have been better but not a whole lot better as the movie will still have suffered from overcrowding and at least one of those villians getting little screen time.

The movie should have been GG2 and one other and no more than you conclude the Harry story and have an interesting sub villian.
Think about the things Venom and Sandman where trying to achieve to boil it done to the bare bones and then give those objectives to ONE character. If that chacarater can't be made to fit seemlessly into the conclusion of the Harry storyline then you drop that character.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that had SM3 been SM1 quality (never mind SM2 quality) the movie would have made over a billion. So Avi tinkering to earn the movie more money probably cost the movie another 200m.

 

[Scarlettess]

I think some people are confused about what the Producers role actually is, believe it or not the director isn't the one in charge of making decisions, they have to pass it by the producer if anything needs changing. Director's have creative input, and only rarely have any more (like Christopher Nolan for example) Producers though, they have final say on everything, so if they don't like it they can change it. So even if Avad wasn't responsible for saying 'put that scene in and take this one out' etc. he still gave the ok for the movie WITH them scenes in.

 

[LegendAssemble]

No I am not
A director with one film or two is still inexperienced.No one will deny that

I'm not denying that, but your logic is flawed. You're comparing apples and oranges. Warner Bros just used Joel Schumacher as a puppet and got burned when their movie Batman and Robin destroyed their franchize. Not only were there efforts of control not critically rewarded but the movie was an enormous flop. Sony on the other hand had the most successful film of the franchise and was forced to cancel the sequel because they had difficulty with the director. It points much more in the direction that they wanted someone they could control, not the mention the confusion over whether he'd return or not.

Plus a production takes 2-3 years. Thats a hell of a lot more experience than just one production and some music videos. Still not a lot, but undeniably more.

Still doesnt hint strongly towards a Ang Lee type origin,atleast not enough to get Fanbois heated up

There didn't have to be an Ang Lee style origin, it just had to be a changed origin and the fanboys got heated up before the movie even came out. So thats just wrong.

I never denied any of that
Just disproving your theory that not showing him dead would please the Indian Audience
And imo there is very little probability that he will get a role in TASM#2 or #3

That wasn't my theory, I said that they didn't kill him so they could bring him back and use his name in the foreign market again. It had nothing to do with displeasing the indian audience, just marketing.

Just because he forced Venom in SM3 doesnt mean that he is responsible for every thing wrong in Spider-man films in the future

It's not just that if you look at the production on SM4 and the comments he's made. It's not just Venom it's in this guys character and so far it's been paying off so I don't even blame him! I do shake my head at you however for failing the see the obvious.

 

[Spiderdevil]

But that doesn't matter now since it was a deleted scene as much as Dr. Ratha ISN'T dead since he died only in a deleted scene.

Doesnt change the fact that he meant to kill Peter and only ran away because he was converting back,you cant interpret new things because a scene was deleted
This scene proves my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5pyGkfx1lU

But that is a HUGE excuse. And now we've even seen a deleted scene of Lizard in the bathroom where he DOESN'T eat those two girls.

Havent seen that scene yet

And...he's only turning back in the deleted scene, not with the theatrical cut we saw.

Forget about turning back,What does those words mean to you other than his intention to kill him?

And not once have I ever said directors don't film alternate scenes, only that the case with alternate scenes, the films for Spider-Man have had the worst luck in that case. Too much of a coincidence now to say it's the director's fault.

We can say it worked perfectly fine in SM1 and SM2
And no,there are plenty of times in movies that I see the alternate/deleted scenes and then think to myself that they would have been better put in.I dont go 'I bet the producer had something to do with it'

The proof we do know is that Avi Arad has always been a pushy producer with Sam Raimi. So it definitely does linger that Arad does have the power in changing scenes/taking them out/etc.

Just because he convinced Raimi to use Venom doesnt mean that he is now responsible for everything wrong

The line from Dr. Ratha greatly alludes to Richard having tested on Peter, but speaking of the bathroom scene...Lizard isn't even eating those two girls in that scene anymore. So that once again destroys the censor board theory, now doesn't it?

Maybe it does but it doesnt give any weight to the Avi-did-it theory aswell

And when we've known the past with Spider-Man 3, then we know what Avi Arad could have done.

He never removed/replaced any scenes in SM3
Why cant you except the fact that Raimi miscalculated?

Actually, no, it wasn't. It was a fine script and only the theatrical cut makes it seem like the script is utter garbage.

One scene wont change the movie so much.Okay it completes Rahta's arc
What about the other dozen things wrong?

 

[Spiderdevil]

I'm not denying that, but your logic is flawed. You're comparing apples and oranges. Warner Bros just used Joel Schumacher as a puppet and got burned when their movie Batman and Robin destroyed their franchize. Not only were there efforts of control not critically rewarded but the movie was an enormous flop. Sony on the other hand had the most successful film of the franchise and was forced to cancel the sequel because they had difficulty with the director. It points much more in the direction that they wanted someone they could control, not the mention the confusion over whether he'd return or not.

So controlling Schumacher never worked and they try to do it again by hiring a rookie director? Isnt that stupidity on WB's part

Plus a production takes 2-3 years. Thats a hell of a lot more experience than just one production and some music videos. Still not a lot, but undeniably more.

Dont compare them to each other,we are talking about millions of dollars at skate and both the studios hired rookie directors
TBH I wasnt particularly thrilled when Webb was hired,neither am I that happy to see him back.But Sony's decision makes sense from their point of view,they wanted a different Spider-man movie from what we already saw,they wanted a characted oriented movie and were impressed on how Webb handled characters in 500 days.. and thus hired
You are making it seem like they just went for a rookie director without thinking at all and they only wanted control.They did use their brains.Webb could have turned into a Nolan type success and he still has the chance with #2

That wasn't my theory, I said that they didn't kill him so they could bring him back and use his name in the foreign market again. It had nothing to do with displeasing the indian audience, just marketing.

Oh..kay
But I dont think he'll be used again

 

[LegendAssemble]

I think some people are confused about what the Producers role actually is, believe it or not the director isn't the one in charge of making decisions, they have to pass it by the producer if anything needs changing. Director's have creative input, and only rarely have any more (like Christopher Nolan for example) Producers though, they have final say on everything, so if they don't like it they can change it. So even if Avad wasn't responsible for saying 'put that scene in and take this one out' etc. he still gave the ok for the movie WITH them scenes in.

Right, I'd like to add the producer is the source of money for the film. The writers and the directors by the book have the most creative control but when push comes to shove the producer is paying for it and if he has any requests its hard to say no. That kind of gridlock is why SM4 didn't happen. My point being that it's never really too good when the producers get too involved because they're more concerned with the bottom line than the overall picture.

 

[LegendAssemble]

So controlling Schumacher never worked and they try to do it again by hiring a rookie director? Isnt that stupidity on WB's part

No because hiring a rookie director doesn't mean, what I said which you ignored, was that the circumstances are different. For WB controlling their director failed so they gave their next one more freedom, where as for Sony control has been the main issue and so far it's been profitable.

Dont compare them to each other,we are talking about millions of dollars at skate and both the studios hired rookie directors
TBH I wasnt particularly thrilled when Webb was hired,neither am I that happy to see him back.But Sony's decision makes sense from their point of view,they wanted a different Spider-man movie from what we already saw,they wanted a characted oriented movie and were impressed on how Webb handled characters in 500 days.. and thus hired
You are making it seem like they just went for a rookie director without thinking at all and they only wanted control.They did use their brains.Webb could have turned into a Nolan type success and he still has the chance with #2

YOU'RE THE ONE COMPARING THEM. If you look at the production on SM3 and SM4 you'll see a great need for control from arad, then if you look at how badly this movie was editted, you'll see that hasn't changed. You're believing too much of what you hear instead of looking at the facts.

Oh..kay
But I dont think he'll be used again

Who knows but there was a reason they cut that scene.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Doesnt change the fact that he meant to kill Peter and only ran away because he was converting back,you cant interpret new things because a scene was deleted
This scene proves my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5pyGkfx1lU

And that doesn't change the fact that it is a deleted scene and doesn't matter to anything in the final cut since Dr. Ratha isn't even dead now.

Havent seen that scene yet

You should since it blows the censor board theory out of the water.

Forget about turning back,What does those words mean to you other than his intention to kill him?

Meaningless words when Lizard simply didn't kill Spider-Man.

We can say it worked perfectly fine in SM1 and SM2

What alternate scenes do we know of from these films?

And no,there are plenty of times in movies that I see the alternate/deleted scenes and then think to myself that they would have been better put in.I dont go 'I bet the producer had something to do with it'

But one wouldn't even say that about the producers unless they've ****ed any films up before

Just because he convinced Raimi to use Venom doesnt mean that he is now responsible for everything wrong

I'm not going to try to convince you anymore, but there are many and many people that realize what Avi Arad has done and what he possibly did with TAS-M.

Maybe it does but it doesnt give any weight to the Avi-did-it theory aswell

What has happened to Spider-Man 3 helps the Avi Arad theory.

He never removed/replaced any scenes in SM3
Why cant you except the fact that Raimi miscalculated?

Once more, you're the only one who thinks Arad had nothing to do with it.

Why can't you accept that Avi Arad isn't such a great producer as you think he is?

One scene wont change the movie so much.Okay it completes Rahta's arc
What about the other dozen things wrong?

The scene brings Richard Parker's name back up, could allude to Richard testing Peter, gives a more refine layout of Connors' master plan and even allude to Richard not having want to share the algorithm or any info on the cross species project.

Like those things? Because, yah, that sewer scene pretty much adds more to all of those plots.

 

[©KAW]

Both Raimi and Avi Arad are horrible at what they do, so you're both right.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Both Raimi and Avi Arad are horrible at what they do, so you're both right.

 

[Spiderdevil]

No because hiring a rookie director doesn't mean, what I said which you ignored, was that the circumstances are different. For WB controlling their director failed so they gave their next one more freedom, where as for Sony control has been the main issue and so far it's been profitable.

Well I dont think Sony controlled or tried to control Webb,he wouldnt have been back if that was the case

YOU'RE THE ONE COMPARING THEM. If you look at the production on SM3 and SM4

Forget about SM3 and SM4.
SM3 was **** and Raimi was also responsible for it,you guys make it seem like he had no fault.
SM3 cost 260M at that time,which is 310M in todays money,which means SM4 would have easily cost about 330M-350M(In today's money) which is 100M more than TASM's budget.
Sony avoided their Batman and Robin after their Batman Forever and saved up 100M just like that.Raimi wanted to go with the Vultress(Which was some wierd combination of Black Cat and The Vulture)!! Did you expect Sony to agree with that ****?Giving Freedom is one thing but you have to put your foot down when the director is using ridiculous ideas

you'll see a great need for control from arad, then if you look at how badly this movie was editted, you'll see that hasn't changed. You're believing too much of what you hear instead of looking at the facts.

Its the other way around pal,I chose to base my opinions on facts why you are basing them on past movies

 

[Spiderdevil]

And that doesn't change the fact that it is a deleted scene and doesn't matter to anything in the final cut since Dr. Ratha isn't even dead now.

Do you have anything to support your theory that Lizard didnt want to kill Spidey?

You should since it blows the censor board theory out of the water.

As I said before,they have wierd rules

Meaningless words when Lizard simply didn't kill Spider-Man.

Because Spider-man didnt let him

What alternate scenes do we know of from these films?

The lift scene,which was absolutely ridiculous

But one wouldn't even say that about the producers unless they've ****ed any films up before

'Film' not 'Films'

I'm not going to try to convince you anymore, but there are many and many people that realize what Avi Arad has done and what he possibly did with TAS-M.

Just because many people believe something doesnt mean its true

Once more, you're the only one who thinks Arad had nothing to do with it.Why can't you accept that Avi Arad isn't such a great producer as you think he is?

So if producing 4 movies making close to 4 billion with Good reception isnt what you call a great producer than I dont know what does

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I said it and I'll say it again
I want a villain with no possible connection to Peter Parker. TDK Joker has absolutely no connection to Bruce Wayne, and look how that movie turned out

 

[Anno_Domini]

Do you have anything to support your theory that Lizard didnt want to kill Spidey?

Yes, the movie itself where Lizard ran away.

As I said before,they have wierd rules

Just admit your censor board idea is wrong.

Because Spider-man didnt let him

Getting tossed around like a ragdoll is not letting him?

The lift scene,which was absolutely ridiculous

What lift scene?

'Film' not 'Films'

No, you got it right the second time.

Just because many people believe something doesnt mean its true

For this instance? Yes, yes it does.

So if producing 4 movies making close to 4 billion with Good reception isnt what you call a great producer than I dont know what does

And Michael Bay made three TF films that have good reception with the GA. Your point? Doesn't matter if Arad has made some films with good reception. He still made mistakes and we know what these mistakes are.

I said it and I'll say it again
I want a villain with no possible connection to Peter Parker. TDK Joker has absolutely no connection to Bruce Wayne, and look how that movie turned out

I wouldn't count on Electro having no connection to Peter Parker in the sequel, though.

 

[LegendAssemble]

Well I dont think Sony controlled or tried to control Webb,he wouldnt have been back if that was the case

Given that he almost wasn't back I don't see how this supports what you're saying.

Forget about SM3 and SM4.
SM3 was **** and Raimi was also responsible for it,you guys make it seem like he had no fault.
SM3 cost 260M at that time,which is 310M in todays money,which means SM4 would have easily cost about 330M-350M(In today's money) which is 100M more than TASM's budget.
Sony avoided their Batman and Robin after their Batman Forever and saved up 100M just like that.Raimi wanted to go with the Vultress(Which was some wierd combination of Black Cat and The Vulture)!! Did you expect Sony to agree with that ****?Giving Freedom is one thing but you have to put your foot down when the director is using ridiculous ideas

You have no idea what you're talking about. For one thing it was Arad who forced Sam to include Venom into his already greenlight and completed script and the new one wasn't even finished completely until late in filming. So whos more to blame?

Second of all "Raimi wanted to go with the Vulturess", no Arad told him he wouldn't let him use the Vulture or the Lizard because "he couldn't market the vulture and the lizard looks too strange" so they compromised and had the vulturess. The studio didn't avoid their "Batman and Robin" they intended on producing it, but they couldn't agree on a script because it was bad. So rather than let Sam do what he wanted he decided to leave.

Arads job is to be an accountant and to let the directors do their creative thing, rather than try to play both roles.

Its the other way around pal,I chose to base my opinions on facts why you are basing them on past movies

HAHAHAHA okay buddy you look at heavily prepared and doctored press releases and I'll keep looking at what's really going on and what the small comments say. Oh and if Arad is so great, why in the hell did we get Ghost Rider 2?

EDIT: Not to mention it sounds like you have absolutely no idea about the backstory behind Spider-Man 3.

 

[LegendAssemble]

I said it and I'll say it again
I want a villain with no possible connection to Peter Parker. TDK Joker has absolutely no connection to Bruce Wayne, and look how that movie turned out

Thats not why it worked but I agree. However I still say 2 is too soon for electro.

 

[Zucaro]

I want Venom for the third part, he deserves justice. And in the upcoming sequel... Green Goblin. That's it, probably Shocker in a minor role...

 

[Jick]

Given that he almost wasn't back I don't see how this supports what you're saying.

When did that happen? What that has to do with what he said? How do you know he almost wasn't back because of Sony?

You have no idea what you're talking about. For one thing it was Arad who forced Sam to include Venom into his already greenlight and completed script and the new one wasn't even finished completely until late in filming. So whos more to blame?

How do you know the script was allowed and already complete?

Just curious, cause I don't remember reading about it.

 

[DyeLorean]

There's one thing that doesn't allow the Spider-Man universe to expand like other superheroes. He is always in New York, that's his home, where he can swing among taller buildings. There's a certain amount of things you can do with that, same goes with the villains. Everyone of them has a relation and a connection to Peter somehow. They had to create the backstory of his parents to try something different, cause there are not so many posibilites left. You know what I mean? The franchise feels like stuck, they need to incorporate new elements or the sequels will start to feel a lot like Raimi's.

Kraven could be a good way to inject this series with something different from the world of Spider-Man. Same goes with Mysterio (still my number one choice), where logic doesn't fully apply and you can do a lot of new things with Spider-Man, away from the tired city-setting.

 

[Spiderdevil]

Yes, the movie itself where Lizard ran away.

Then what was his purpose of those words he said and him visiting the school

Just admit your censor board idea is wrong.

When you admit you are blaming Arad needlessly

Getting tossed around like a ragdoll is not letting him?

He put up a good fight,its the other way around,Peter didnt want to hurt him.
Lizard started to turn back and escaped,just because a scene was deleted you dont have to start interpreting things which were never meant to be

What lift scene?

The Lift scene in SM2 where that man with dog offered him a card

And Michael Bay made three TF films that have good reception with the GA. Your point? Doesn't matter if Arad has made some films with good reception. He still made mistakes and we know what these mistakes are.

So you are comparing the reception of Transformers with Spider-man movies?
Man I've seen it all

 

[Spiderdevil]

Given that he almost wasn't back I don't see how this supports what you're saying.

Again you are imagining things
Sony bargained with Fox and got him back,he took the offer himself
The 'Almost' point you make is because of Fox being a spoilsport rather than him considering not taking the offer

You have no idea what you're talking about. For one thing it was Arad who forced Sam to include Venom into his already greenlight and completed script and the new one wasn't even finished completely until late in filming. So whos more to blame?

And Venom was the only thing wrong with SM3?
And 'Until late in the filming'? Man you make up things like anything

Second of all "Raimi wanted to go with the Vulturess", no Arad told him he wouldn't let him use the Vulture or the Lizard because "he couldn't market the vulture and the lizard looks too strange" so they compromised and had the vulturess.

Ridiculous.Vultress is even more idiotic than Vulture,I dont see where is the compromise
Raimi wanted to go with the Vultress,a Villian that didnt exist in the Comics in the first place and the design he was suggesting was ridiculous,Sony had to put their foot down.Time ran out and Raimi let go since there was very little time to complete it before the release date
And about The Lizard point,I dont think you noticed the Villian in TASM

The studio didn't avoid their "Batman and Robin" they intended on producing it, but they couldn't agree on a script because it was bad. So rather than let Sam do what he wanted he decided to leave.

And in hindsight it turned out to be a good decision
It would have been a sad day had we seen something like 'The Vultress' on the bigscreen

Arads job is to be an accountant and to let the directors do their creative thing, rather than try to play both roles.

And he didnt play anyone's role in TASM's case

Oh and if Arad is so great, why in the hell did we get Ghost Rider 2?

I guess he the first director to make a bad film?
I suggest you look up films like the Green Lantern and X-Men Wolverine?

EDIT: Not to mention it sounds like you have absolutely no idea about the backstory behind Spider-Man 3.

Like you have any idea about it
Sony didnt Agree to Vulture and Raimi 'compromised' and went for 'The Vultress'?? Like Vultress is more marketable and a better idea compared to Vulture

 

[Spiderdevil]

There's one thing that doesn't allow the Spider-Man universe to expand like other superheroes. He is always in New York, that's his home, where he can swing among taller buildings. There's a certain amount of things you can do with that, same goes with the villains. Everyone of them has a relation and a connection to Peter somehow. They had to create the backstory of his parents to try something different, cause there are not so many posibilites left. You know what I mean? The franchise feels like stuck, they need to incorporate new elements or the sequels will start to feel a lot like Raimi's.

Kraven could be a good way to inject this series with something different from the world of Spider-Man. Same goes with Mysterio (still my number one choice), where logic doesn't fully apply and you can do a lot of new things with Spider-Man, away from the tired city-setting.

The Villians part in not really true
They could have Easily used The Kingpin and Shocker as Villians for the first film