What was the problem with the fire bird?

[the a1ant]

Watch this from 1:55 and up, guys.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IskkXeTmW_k

Coincidence?

 

[Retroman]

^^I think not. The veins, the black eyes its all there except the girl-on-girl action.lol

 

[javon]

According to the writers Ratner did not think it was realistic enough to have firebird Phoenix. The podcast was posted here somewhere.

WTF?! It's realistic to have Iceman iceup, Xavier change into a different body (however that works) but Jean can;t have a firebird? Damn, I don't know who to blame, Ratner...or the writers. Mabe Bryan should have stuck aropund. But thats for another discussion. t:

 

[chaseter]

Bryan...

 

[javon]

I knew that didn't seem quite right. Thanks

 

[AznBABYBANDIT]

WTF?! It's realistic to have Iceman iceup, Xavier change into a different body (however that works) but Jean can;t have a firebird? Damn, I don't know who to blame, Ratner...or the writers. Mabe Bryan should have stuck aropund. But thats for another discussion.

Well... if they did a brief fire bird ( faintly like they planned ) Fans wun b happy, so they prolly left it out for the final scene

 

[the a1ant]

I honestly can't picture Ratner being against having a firebird in the film. IMO, I think the writers meant to say Fox, but were scared.

 

[ntcrawler]

^^^ Maybe they just plain forgot because of the rushed schedule... probably thought that no one would notice. then make up some technobabble excuse like the waters of Alkali Lake put out the fires

 

[X-Maniac]

^^^ Maybe they just plain forgot because of the rushed schedule... probably thought that no one would notice. then make up some technobabble excuse like the waters of Alkali Lake put out the fires

Yes, of course, Mr Ntcrawler, it was all a dastardly conspiracy to upset you as much as possible and make the crappiest movie possible. That must be it!

I very much doubt they 'forgot' or 'thought no-one would notice', nor have i heard any official 'technobabble' about the lake putting her fires out! And I speak as someone who was also disappointed over the absence of the firebird.

 

[javon]

^^^ Maybe they just plain forgot because of the rushed schedule... probably thought that no one would notice. then make up some technobabble excuse like the waters of Alkali Lake put out the fires

LOL! I really don't see how this is even a damn mystery. When they were planning for how the Phoenix would look when she is using her powers, then I knowfirebord should have came across their mind automatically. Wait a minute....who are those comic geeks they said were there? They should have at least said something.

 

[BMM]

LOL! I really don't see how this is even a damn mystery. When they were planning for how the Phoenix would look when she is using her powers, then I knowfirebord should have came across their mind automatically. Wait a minute....who are those comic geeks they said were there? They should have at least said something.

According to Cinefex, Fox simply asked FX supervisor John Bruno to make up a number of Phoenix's power displays (and their explanations in relation to the character) by himself. This could serve as a reason as to why the Phoenix effects are vastly different from the previous films as well the source material. The FX supervisor simply invented them based on his own ideas of what could work, whereas before he probably had guidance as to what was needed in order to stay faithful to the characters.

John Bruno had conceived the zero-gravity response to the Phoenix when executives at Fox asked him to write out not only what effects would be needed and how they would be achieved, but also a back story as to how the effects related to the characters. "It was the first time a studio ever asked me to do that!" Bruno stated.

The article goes on to talk about the creation of Bruno's concept that Phoenix reverses gravity. It also states that the Moving Picture Company, in conjunction with Bruno, developed the look of Jean Grey when the dark Phoenix assumes control, noting the literal darkening of her eyes and skin as well as the vein exposure. (I'll post pictures of the article in a minute, so you guys don't think I'm just making stuff up).

Fox probably asked Bruno to come up with the effects on his own so they would simply have something beforehand, as there was hardly any prep time for anyone's particular vision.

 

[javon]

According to Cinefex, Fox simply asked FX supervisor John Bruno to make up a number of Phoenix's power displays (and their explanations in relation to the character) by himself. This could serve as a reason as to why the Phoenix effects are vastly different from the previous films as well the source material. The FX supervisor simply invented them based on his own ideas of what could work, whereas before he probably had guidance as to what was needed in order to stay faithful to the characters.

Sigh...now I am not talking to you right now but....why the hell would they do that? Did they all of a sudden decide to say "Hmm....I want you to make the ideas''? That is just stupid and I think it is just an excuse IMO.

The article goes on to talk about the creation of Bruno's concept that Phoenix reverses gravity.

Bruno is going a little overboard...

It also states that the Moving Picture Company, in conjunction with Bruno, developed the look of Jean Grey when the dark Phoenix assumes control, noting the literal darkening of her eyes and skin as well as the vein exposure. (I'll post pictures of the article in a minute, so you guys don't think I'm just making stuff up).

OMG Are all buisness people this dumb?

Fox probably asked Bruno to come with the effects on his own so they would simply have something beforehand, as there was hardly any prep time for anyone's particular vision.

I know thats right. Man, all of a sudden I miss Bryan..

 

[ntcrawler]

Yes, of course, Mr Ntcrawler, it was all a dastardly conspiracy to upset you as much as possible and make the crappiest movie possible. That must be it!

I sense sarcasm...

I very much doubt they 'forgot' or 'thought no-one would notice', nor have i heard any official 'technobabble' about the lake putting her fires out!

See previous posts by users. Apparently 8 months under water put out the phoenix fires.

And I speak as someone who was also disappointed over the absence of the firebird.

Ah well that's good then. Least we agree on this part :heart:

 

[WorthyStevens]

Yes, of course, Mr Ntcrawler, it was all a dastardly conspiracy to upset you as much as possible and make the crappiest movie possible. That must be it!

Of course not. They just didn't give enough of a damn about their product to make it as best of a movie it could be. Hence the rushed schedule. And obvious flaws with the film itself.

 

[ntcrawler]

Sigh...now I am not talking to you right now but....why the hell would they do that? Did they all of a sudden decide to say "Hmm....I want you to make the ideas''? That is just stupid and I think it is just an excuse IMO.

Bruno is going a little overboard...

Well at least this makes sense. Not using any sort of previous precedent, not even insignificant little things like HOW THE EFFECTS WERE PORTRAYED IN THE PREVIOUS FILM, the guys starts out with a clean piece of paper:

"Let's see... Phoenix, phoenix... Is it a bird that is reborn of fire? No, of course not!. It's a mad-woman with black eyes and veins all over her face who makes water flow up. Yes, by golly that's it!"

OMG Are all buisness people this dumb?

Look at all the previous fiasco's. Not only are they that dumb, but they never ever learn.

 

[ntcrawler]

Of course not. They just didn't give enough of a damn about their product to make it as best of a movie it could be. Hence the rushed schedule. And obvious flaws with the film itself.

Precisely! They put a higher value on profit potential and investment return rather than the quality of the art and attention to detail.

 

[Cyrusbales]

this film had many flaws, the writing, the directing, the acting, the SFX, not all of these were bad al the time, but generally, they were. The firevird is just another failure as part of the above

 

[javon]

Well at least this makes sense. Not using any sort of previous precedent, not even insignificant little things like HOW THE EFFECTS WERE PORTRAYED IN THE PREVIOUS FILM, the guys starts out with a clean piece of paper:

"Let's see... Phoenix, phoenix... Is it a bird that is reborn of fire? No, of course not!. It's a mad-woman with black eyes and veins all over her face who makes water flow up. Yes, by golly that's it!"

LOL But shouldn't he know that the firebird was in the comics? I mean, he did read them didn't he?

Look at all the previous fiasco's. Not only are they that dumb, but they never ever learn.

Aah man. And I was hoping X4 was gonna be good.

 

[X-Maniac]

Precisely! They put a higher value on profit potential and investment return rather than the quality of the art and attention to detail.

They most certainly did have an eye on profit/investment....

I rather suspect there are other factors. Bryan left on bad terms, taking his ideas (which were essentially Emma Frost as an emotion-manipulating empath to corrupt Jean Grey). This therefore must have meant the new writers were (creatively, legally and politically) forced to come up with new ideas that were nothing to do with Bryan. Otherwise we might have had Bryan saying 'they took my ideas' or 'X3 only succeeded because they used my ideas'. Too much potential for acccusations and resentments.

It also might be part of the explanation that some things differ from Bryan's ideas. Different director, previous director left on bad terms... a new director is going to want to put his imprint on the material, and there may have been a conscious decision to show they could do it very well without Bryan or his ideas.

The blame, ultimately, lies with Fox's lack of commitment to this project and NOT allowing the man who made the first two movies a success a chance to finish his 'vision.'

However, under the circumstances, the cast and crew - including Ratner - delivered (in my view) the goods.. given the circumstances and constraints. The casual moviegoer is unfamiliar with (and oblivious and indifferent to) changes in director, political machinations. It's only we as fans that can 'see the joins', and some can enjoy (if not accept) what we did get more than others.

 

[X-Maniac]

The article goes on to talk about the creation of Bruno's concept that Phoenix reverses gravity.

Oh my God, I've just had a wild thought....

In the Deadly Genesis comic story, it's revealed (in a retcon) that a secret team of X-Men including the third Summers' brother Vulcan had tried to rescue the original team from the mutant living island Krakoa.

I don't have that comic here, but I believe that story refers back to the original 1975 Second Genesis story (which introduced Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Wolverine as X-Men).

In the original 1975 story, Krakoa's gravity was cancelled by Polaris (with the help of energy from all the other X-Men) and the island flew off into space. In the Deadly Genesis story, I believe they recap on this event and incorrectly state that it was Jean Grey who cancelled gravity and flung the island into space. Can anyone with this comic confirm this? A review of the comic seems to confirm it here http://www.popmatters.com/comics/x-men-deadly-genesis-1-6.shtml

I wonder if this story has somehow influenced the decision to have Phoenix as an anti-gravity entity. This story also revealed Xavier's devious manipulations, it had a shock death and it followed on from the House of M storyline in which Scarlet Witch had a mental breakdown and mutants ended up depowered. Any of this sound familiar?!

 

[My Red Sight]

Watch this from 1:55 and up, guys.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IskkXeTmW_k

Coincidence?

That wasn't the same AT ALL! Xander didn't have claws t:.

I don't know. Maybe they should have made the fire-bird, it's what I expected. But than, It doesn't really fit. Bryan's Fire-bird didn't fit with the second. Why would Jean show any of those effects in X2? I can see where they were going with the viens and dark eyes. She's mean in this one, make her look it. It worked for me. Honestly, I thought her red suit was a good enough fire-bird for me... It's like a realistic interpretation of the fire-bird for the film. heh.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I think some people are beeing blinded by the hatred...
to say that the Phoenix effects were simply forgotten or that John Bruno came up with it all, do you guys forget all those artwork featuring fire-phoenix effects?!?!?!
they must have tried them, for sure. I dont really know why the fiery effects were dropped, but it sure wasnt because they forgot or because they didnt know Phoenix had those kind of display of powers.

It was written, it was planned, it got drafts. What we dont know is why it was dropped: creative decision, time-restraint or bad use of the budget which ultimately resulted in the lack or these effects.

 

[britrogue]

I really thought it was dreadful continuity wise. X-2 and to a lesser extent the original were working on Phoenix as being an evolution of Jean's powers, not some dark side to her personality that has been dormant all along. The Last Stand made the closing scene of X-2 pointless and rather dumb.

 

[Mother_Askani]

Oh my God, I've just had a wild thought....

In the Deadly Genesis comic story, it's revealed (in a retcon) that a secret team of X-Men including the third Summers' brother Vulcan had tried to rescue the original team from the mutant living island Krakoa.

I don't have that comic here, but I believe that story refers back to the original 1975 Second Genesis story (which introduced Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Wolverine as X-Men).

In the original 1975 story, Krakoa's gravity was cancelled by Polaris (with the help of energy from all the other X-Men) and the island flew off into space. In the Deadly Genesis story, I believe they recap on this event and incorrectly state that it was Jean Grey who cancelled gravity and flung the island into space. Can anyone with this comic confirm this? A review of the comic seems to confirm it here http://www.popmatters.com/comics/x-men-deadly-genesis-1-6.shtml

I wonder if this story has somehow influenced the decision to have Phoenix as an anti-gravity entity. This story also revealed Xavier's devious manipulations, it had a shock death and it followed on from the House of M storyline in which Scarlet Witch had a mental breakdown and mutants ended up depowered. Any of this sound familiar?!

That's accurate.

Ed Brubaker has explained that the reason for incorrectly saying Jean rather than Lorna was because the editor wrote the flashback part, not him, and it wasn't edited in the X-office, so the editor didn't know and made a mistake. (Not that Sean and Nick in the X-office would have done a better job since they have problems just spelling character's names).

I don't understand how someone could have written that part without cracking open Giant Size #1, and could have mistaken Jean for Lorna.

My conspiracy theory is that Deadly Genesis was intended to be very, very easy to understand for people who never have read X-Men, like movie fans. Although Lorna does briefly appear in DG, her powers are never explained.

The Marvel editors tend to favor superconsistency over continuity - giving readers just enough of the backstory to understand what's going on without giving irrelevant details. (for instance, at no point do they explain that Scott is Rachel's father)

My hunch is that the editor intentionally made the mistake of saying Jean rather than Lorna so to not confuse new readers and to tie Jean into the story, despite the fact that she's dead.

I'm not sure if that would have influenced X3, since Deadly Genesis #1 came out in late 2005 and issue 6 came out in April 2006. The idea was conceived at the Marvel writers' retreat in the summer of 2005 by Axel Alonso, Brian Michael Bendis and Joe Quesada. The idea is more of a rip-off of DC's Infinite Crisis.

 

[BMM]

Oh my God, I've just had a wild thought....

In the Deadly Genesis comic story, it's revealed (in a retcon) that a secret team of X-Men including the third Summers' brother Vulcan had tried to rescue the original team from the mutant living island Krakoa.

I don't have that comic here, but I believe that story refers back to the original 1975 Second Genesis story (which introduced Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler and Wolverine as X-Men).

In the original 1975 story, Krakoa's gravity was cancelled by Polaris (with the help of energy from all the other X-Men) and the island flew off into space. In the Deadly Genesis story, I believe they recap on this event and incorrectly state that it was Jean Grey who cancelled gravity and flung the island into space. Can anyone with this comic confirm this? A review of the comic seems to confirm it here http://www.popmatters.com/comics/x-m...esis-1-6.shtml

I wonder if this story has somehow influenced the decision to have Phoenix as an anti-gravity entity. This story also revealed Xavier's devious manipulations, it had a shock death and it followed on from the House of M storyline in which Scarlet Witch had a mental breakdown and mutants ended up depowered. Any of this sound familiar?!

As interesting as this sounds, I think it is a wild thought and probably little else. I don’t think the entirety of the Phoenix effect is based upon the happenstance that Bruno stumbled across an individual, error filled comic book panel. While the story also reveals Xavier’s manipulations, I don’t believe The Last Stand to be based off of them. Xavier’s machinations via The Last Stand have long since been revealed to us before the creation and release of Deadly Genesis. Likewise, with the House of M arc. Shock deaths are nothing new, Jean’s mental breakdown is the writers' take on the Dark Phoenix Saga, and the depowered mutants are the result of Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men.

I think some people are beeing blinded by the hatred...
to say that the Phoenix effects were simply forgotten or that John Bruno came up with it all, do you guys forget all those artwork featuring fire-phoenix effects?!?!?!
they must have tried them, for sure. I dont really know why the fiery effects were dropped, but it sure wasnt because they forgot or because they didnt know Phoenix had those kind of display of powers.

It was written, it was planned, it got drafts. What we dont know is why it was dropped: creative decision, time-restraint or bad use of the budget which ultimately resulted in the lack or these effects.

Noting that John Bruno developed a number of character effects and their relation to the characters is not the result of being blinded by hatred. It is directly stated in an article. This is not to say that the Phoenix effect did not receive sketches or was not mentioned in a script draft. It simply indicates that Bruno clearly had a part in the development of the rendition of Phoenix that is featured in The Last Stand, which may explain the absence of the Phoenix effect, etc. Kinberg and Penn may have included the Phoenix effect in a script draft, but they maintain little to no say beyond that. Writers have no authority beyond the script they are ordered to write (particularly these two in this circumstance) unless otherwise permitted. Even then, as noted by the writers themselves, they were given strict parameters by Fox in which to maintain the story. The same may be true of Fox during any part of the pre-production, production, or post-production processes. The studio clearly requested that Bruno develop a number of character effects as well as maintain the practicality by which such powers would be displayed and how they relate to the characters. This is not to say that Bruno is solely responsible for the Phoenix effect, or a lack thereof, but it may serve as an indicator as to why certain choices were made.