What was the problem with the fire bird?

[BMM]

I don’t know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize this. For whatever reason, the Phoenix effect isn’t in The Last Stand--Period. Is Jean turning into a black eyed, veiny creature, with absolutely no semblance of a Phoenix effect consistent with X2? No. Is it consistent with any incarnation of Phoenix or Dark Phoenix? No. The Phoenix/Dark Phoenix has always been depicted as having an aura/firebird/Phoenix effect (whatever you want to call it), but it isn’t in The Last Stand. There seems to be no good explanation for it in, or outside of, the movie. If you like Jean’s visual interpretation in The Last Stand, then great. You can still like it even if there isn’t an explanation for it. Simply because there is no explanation, doesn’t mean the movie must suddenly be ruined.

I have to say, showing Jean with a fiery aura when she rises, and possibly a flare when she allowed herself to be killed would be extremely acceptable.

But would it be a bit much or confuse some viewers?

Why would showing glimpses of power traits that Jean possessed at the end of X2 confuse audience members anymore than having Jean suddenly rise in The Last Stand with a completely different look and set of abilities? If the audience can accept Jean’s portrayal in The Last Stand, not to mention the fact that half of the initial cast they have become familiarized with over the past 6 years have suddenly been replaced with an onslaught of new mutants (some with no names) played by new actors, then I think they can accept something they were shown in the previous film. General audience members aren’t complete idiots. Afterall, we’re general audience members 95% of the time.

 

[Cyclops]

Why do one's actions change with thier personalities?

It could be like: You're fighting someone. You punch for one reason; kick the other.

You could also say that it is a reflection of the individual personality.

She's very strong - at will, she could probably change any aspect of her physicality. The body does strange things subconsciously, and with the Phoenix who deals a lot with the subconscious minus Jean (that which Controlled), anger can manifest differently.


Might I add, that much of what happens in the X-Universe - even in the film-verse - doesn't make sense. Optic Beams, Phasing, Turning into ice, etc... are not possible or sensical in any term. Having a mutant gene that randomly creates this abilities doesn't logically cut it either. Allow a bit of whimsy... The X-Men are full of it, and lack scientific explanations.

But what you're talking about is more in line with having red hair when you're happy and black hair when you're mad.

 

[chaseter]

I don’t know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize this. For whatever reason, the Phoenix effect isn’t in The Last Stand--Period.

And I don't know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize why the aura should have been in there. BMM goes on record and admits that the Phoenix effect is not in TLS PERIOD!

I guess you really wanted the fire aura in and that is great. I kind of wanted it too. You go on to say that their is no reason behind why we got the Phoenix we got. How would you think the writers would relate to the audience as to why the Phoenix is spouting fire(for those who don't know the history)?

 

[N_z0]

And I don't know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize why the aura should have been in there.

Because it was in X2. Where have you been?

 

[chaseter]

Because it was in X2. Where have you been?

At the end of X2 is was Jean...not Phoenix.

 

[ntcrawler]

And I don't know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize why the aura should have been in there. BMM goes on record and admits that the Phoenix effect is not in TLS PERIOD!

Well duh, I can go on record and admit that the Phoenix effect is not in the Last Stand Either. In fact, anyone who did see it must be clearly hallucinating.

But what does that prove? Nothing. Except that it wasn't there. Why wasn't it there? That is the question

 

[ntcrawler]

At the end of X2 is was Jean...not Phoenix.

Different personalities, same person. Same powers and abilities, being used in different ways. Bruno didn't watch X2 and missed this tiny little detail.

 

[BMM]

And I don't know why people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize why the aura should have been in there. BMM goes on record and admits that the Phoenix effect is not in TLS PERIOD!

Good God, take it down about five notches. It's not as though people are bending over backwards trying to rationalize why the aura should have been in the movie. There isn't a deep rationalization required. It's not that hard.

- It's just as much a part of her character as Storm's white hair. It has been identified with Phoenix for almost 30 years (it's even featured on the cover of The Last Stand coloring book), and it was in the last movie.

I guess you really wanted the fire aura in and that is great. I kind of wanted it too. You go on to say that their is no reason behind why we got the Phoenix we got. How would you think the writers would relate to the audience as to why the Phoenix is spouting fire(for those who don't know the history)?

You missed my point entirely. I'm not questioning the audience's understanding of the characters' powers. I don't expect the writers to have to hold the audience's hands through a physiological explanation regarding the mechanics of everyone's powers and why they are the way they are at a given point in time. I simply pointed out that there is no justification given to us as to why someone decided to change the Phoenix, so we might as well stop beating ourselves over the head about why they did what they did. We don't know why, and we don't need to try and justify it to make it fit. What's done is done.

 

[X-Maniac]

[ I simply pointed out that there is no justification given to us as to why someone decided to change the Phoenix, so we might as well stop beating ourselves over the head about why they did what they did. We don't know why, and we don't need to try and justify it to make it fit. What's done is done.

You are right in some ways.

The thing to remember is that these three films were not planned as a trilogy. When X1 was made, they didn't know if it would lead to an X2, and after X2 Fox didn't seem to want to commit to an X3 for some time. Therefore the flow between all three movies isn't seamless.

Two key events happened to Jean - radiation and 'death'. Given what we are told in X3, we have to now assume that the radiation fully reactivated her mutation (so that the neural pathways in the subconscious part of her brain creating her immense power were no longer blocked but becoming active again). The 'death' was in fact a coma or suspended animation in that cocoon, during which time her subconscious could be freely active.

After the radiation she was still in conscious control (except when her subconscious was dominant during dreams) and that to me seemed like 'comicbook Phoenix'; she was using the immense power but with the dark persona still at bay. The dark persona was no longer at bay when she returned as it had freed itself during her comatose state.

In a way, the rupturing of the dam is also symbolic of the rupturing of the barriers in Jean's mind.

That's how I see it, but as i said, these three movies were not written at the same time by the same people; it was not a planned trilogy.

Therefore you get some variance. For instance, we heard in X1 that Jean's power was expanding all the time (but was it? Did we see that?) and we also saw a gentle Pyro and an Xavier who appeared to know very little about Wolverine's past or experimentation on mutants, and a Magneto who didn't appear to know much about Wolverine (dialogue on the train). In X2, Magneto tells Logan that Charles had known much more but had left Wolverine to find out on his own - thus both Xavier and Magneto knew all about Wolverine and Stryker's Weapon X program. Also, Pyro matured suddenly and changed quite sharply into someone resentful and disturbed.

We'll never know if Bryan Singer would have had firebirds in his X3 or whether the one at the end of X2 was simply a nod to fans or a 'teaser' - a symbolic visual that hinted at a future possibility.

 

[Sunstar]

Wouldn't it have been cool of the Phoenix looked like this:

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/33660667/

 

[britrogue]

That IS a cool picture

 

[javon]

Yeah that does look pretty cool.

 

[chaseter]

You are right in some ways.

The thing to remember is that these three films were not planned as a trilogy. When X1 was made, they didn't know if it would lead to an X2, and after X2 Fox didn't seem to want to commit to an X3 for some time. Therefore the flow between all three movies isn't seamless.

Two key events happened to Jean - radiation and 'death'. Given what we are told in X3, we have to now assume that the radiation fully reactivated her mutation (so that the neural pathways in the subconscious part of her brain creating her immense power were no longer blocked but becoming active again). The 'death' was in fact a coma or suspended animation in that cocoon, during which time her subconscious could be freely active.

After the radiation she was still in conscious control (except when her subconscious was dominant during dreams) and that to me seemed like 'comicbook Phoenix'; she was using the immense power but with the dark persona still at bay. The dark persona was no longer at bay when she returned as it had freed itself during her comatose state.

In a way, the rupturing of the dam is also symbolic of the rupturing of the barriers in Jean's mind.

That's how I see it, but as i said, these three movies were not written at the same time by the same people; it was not a planned trilogy.

Therefore you get some variance. For instance, we heard in X1 that Jean's power was expanding all the time (but was it? Did we see that?) and we also saw a gentle Pyro and an Xavier who appeared to know very little about Wolverine's past or experimentation on mutants, and a Magneto who didn't appear to know much about Wolverine (dialogue on the train). In X2, Magneto tells Logan that Charles had known much more but had left Wolverine to find out on his own - thus both Xavier and Magneto knew all about Wolverine and Stryker's Weapon X program. Also, Pyro matured suddenly and changed quite sharply into someone resentful and disturbed.

We'll never know if Bryan Singer would have had firebirds in his X3 or whether the one at the end of X2 was simply a nod to fans or a 'teaser' - a symbolic visual that hinted at a future possibility.

Great post. You are one of the intelligent posters left on this board.

 

[blurb23]

I don't post on here very often, so forgive me if this has already been discussed

In the DVD, there's a "Dark Phoenix extended destruction" deleted scene of about 45 seconds, I believe. Is it possible that the firebird is in this scene? It could have been deleted to keep with the "realism" of the movies.

 

[britrogue]

It would be nice, but I doubt it.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

i dont think so. Its probably just more debris flying and Jean there, paralyzed and looking bad.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

i dont think so. Its probably just more debris flying and Jean there, paralyzed and looking bad.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

im sad too, im sad too...
oh, if only things were different and Bryan directed this movie
i guess we would have a story essentialy about the Phoenix...

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

im sad too, im sad too...
oh, if only things were different and Bryan directed this movie
i guess we would have a story essentialy about the Phoenix...

Exactly. I would have preferred him do x3/x4 back to back but no Fox didn't want that. If I was Singer, I'd go ahead with the plan.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

Exactly. I would have preferred him do x3/x4 back to back but no Fox didn't want that. If I was Singer, I'd go ahead with the plan.

well, now thats impossible. He doesnt have the rights, and he doesnt have money to make a movie by himself

i wonder if it was worthy to have an X3 this way...i really wanted to see a third movie, but if i had to wait 5, 7 years to see it done perfectly and by the hands of Singer, i would happily wait...the one we got was a good movie, maybe even great, but X3 had the potential and was supposed to be my favorite movie of all time. It was supposed to be marvelous. It had every thing going right for the plot if they just followed what X2 previewed, and maybe thats why the version we got wasnt a total failure. Because of the previous movies.

 

[britrogue]

I just don't understand why Fox were so down on the film considering as the other two were such a huge success

 

[flavio_lebeau]

I just don't understand why Fox were so down on the film considering as the other two were such a huge success

As far as i know, they were so confident that got blind. Bryan asked for a higher salary to direct X3, Rothman wouldnt agree. Warner offered Bryan a huge salary for SR, and Bryan always loved Superman. Rothman thought Bryan would never leave the franchise, Fox was too confident and the bigger is the flight, the bigger is the fall. The production of X3 wouldnt start becasue of those problems, although Singer already had a plot in his mind. So they ended up losing Singer, fact that started the whole mess, which ended with both Superman and X-men losing in a way.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Why haven't they released a region 2 DVD of JL series 2? You can only buy upto when hawkgirl rebels in england

 

[britrogue]

Why couldn't SR or X3 be put off until the following year? It's crazy

 

[ntcrawler]

^^^ Sam Raimi admitted that SM3 could have been released early, as early as late this year, but explained that Good special effects take time to make. I don't know whether that was a jab at X3 and the dangers of rushing production or what, but it sure sounded like other studios are taking notice to how X3 was made and are trying to avoid making the same blunders