What was the problem with the fire bird?

[Cosmic Mind]

interesting...... maybe if someone could do a manip with the firebird we could get an idea......the reports are pretty interesting to read as it shows what happend.......

 

[N_z0]

"Veining" in X-men to show Rogue absorbing other mutants' powers was revolutionary.

"Veining" in The Last Stand to show Phoenix' awesome power display was hackneyed filmmaking.

I think it's safe to say that it was the lack of time that ultimately resulted in the Phoenix firebird being dropped. That said, the firebird should have been one of, if not, THE top priority in this film.

 

[ntcrawler]

"Veining" in X-men to show Rogue absorbing other mutants' powers was revolutionary.

"Veining" in The Last Stand to show Phoenix' awesome power display was hackneyed filmmaking.

And the bulging veins on Scott's face during the last moments of Alkali Lake were just totally confusing

I think it's safe to say that it was the lack of time that ultimately resulted in the Phoenix firebird being dropped. That said, the firebird should have been one of, if not, THE top priority in this film.

honestly there is no good reason for it, should they actually wont to stay semi-true to the source material. If members here can whip up a decent effect on their home PC's in a couple of hours, surely the professionals and their incredible graphical editting workstations of science (TM) could do it too.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

is true......the phoenix firebird is iconic, they should at least show it at the end....

 

[Retroman]

Thanks for posting those scans BMM

 

[Retroman]

TheJust posted this scan (from The Art Of X-Men The Last Stand) of concept art for the Phoenix rise sequence a few months ago.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Glorious.

 

[La_She-Beast]

As interesting as this sounds, I think it is a wild thought and probably little else. I don’t think the entirety of the Phoenix effect is based upon the happenstance that Bruno stumbled across an individual, error filled comic book panel. While the story also reveals Xavier’s manipulations, I don’t believe The Last Stand to be based off of them. Xavier’s machinations via The Last Stand have long since been revealed to us before the creation and release of Deadly Genesis. Likewise, with the House of M arc. Shock deaths are nothing new, Jean’s mental breakdown is the writers' take on the Dark Phoenix Saga, and the depowered mutants are the result of Whedon’s Astonishing X-Men.



Noting that John Bruno developed a number of character effects and their relation to the characters is not the result of being blinded by hatred. It is directly stated in an article. This is not to say that the Phoenix effect did not receive sketches or was not mentioned in a script draft. It simply indicates that Bruno clearly had a part in the development of the rendition of Phoenix that is featured in The Last Stand, which may explain the absence of the Phoenix effect, etc. Kinberg and Penn may have included the Phoenix effect in a script draft, but they maintain little to no say beyond that. Writers have no authority beyond the script they are ordered to write (particularly these two in this circumstance) unless otherwise permitted. Even then, as noted by the writers themselves, they were given strict parameters by Fox in which to maintain the story. The same may be true of Fox during any part of the pre-production, production, or post-production processes. The studio clearly requested that Bruno develop a number of character effects as well as maintain the practicality by which such powers would be displayed and how they relate to the characters. This is not to say that Bruno is solely responsible for the Phoenix effect, or a lack thereof, but it may serve as an indicator as to why certain choices were made.

BMM, is it worth buying the CineFX? Or do you think I should wait for the DVD extras?

 

[X-Maniac]

honestly there is no good reason for it, should they actually wont to stay semi-true to the source material. If members here can whip up a decent effect on their home PC's in a couple of hours, surely the professionals and their incredible graphical editting workstations of science (TM) could do it too.

Yes, it cannot have been time or money, if others have easily created such an effect.

In a similar vein, we have never seen Magneto's force-field 'bubble' in the three movies. There WAS something similar when he used the mutagenic machine in X1 though he never created it alone (without a machine), his protective magnetic field when pinned against Jean's cabinet protecting himself from debris was invisible, and the magnetic shield he created on Alcatraz was of large pieces of metal slammed together to deflect explosive devices. I've longed to see a sphere of crackling electromagnetic force around him since the first movie! But, of course, real-world science and realistic sci-fi doesn't agree with the idea of magnetism being manifested as a blue bubble!

Perhaps Jean's shrieking firebird also failed the reality test?

 

[Cyclops]

At the very least they could have kept the Phoenix effects consistent with the ones from X2.

 

[ntcrawler]

In a similar vein, we have never seen Magneto's force-field 'bubble' in the three movies. There WAS something similar when he used the mutagenic machine in X1 though he never created it alone (without a machine), his protective magnetic field when pinned against Jean's cabinet protecting himself from debris was invisible, and the magnetic shield he created on Alcatraz was of large pieces of metal slammed together to deflect explosive devices. I've longed to see a sphere of crackling electromagnetic force around him since the first movie! But, of course, real-world science and realistic sci-fi doesn't agree with the idea of magnetism being manifested as a blue bubble!

Actually you could do it. Correct that electromagnetic fields are not visible. So you wouldn't be able to see them. But you WOULD be able to see the effect they have on the environment around them. Think back to the 1950's War of the Worlds. The Martian vehicles have such shields but don't become visible until something tries to hit them and is blocked by them. the same idea was done in X2. Jean clearly put up a protective bubble around her when Cyke blasted her. You couldn't see the bubble, but you could see the effects it was having on his beams, how they were dissipating around them. Same idea would work with Magneto. You just see all the bullets, missiels, shrapnels, bouncing off and thus showing you the shape and effects of his field.

Perhaps Jean's shrieking firebird also failed the reality test?

Reality seems relative. You can have a fiery aura in X2, and a Woman who could have destroyed the entire island and everything on it with her bare hands, but a firebird is too much? Yeah we don't want to exagerrate here

 

[X-Maniac]

Actually you could do it. Correct that electromagnetic fields are not visible. So you wouldn't be able to see them. But you WOULD be able to see the effect they have on the environment around them. Think back to the 1950's War of the Worlds. The Martian vehicles have such shields but don't become visible until something tries to hit them and is blocked by them. the same idea was done in X2. Jean clearly put up a protective bubble around her when Cyke blasted her. You couldn't see the bubble, but you could see the effects it was having on his beams, how they were dissipating around them. Same idea would work with Magneto. You just see all the bullets, missiels, shrapnels, bouncing off and thus showing you the shape and effects of his field.

Sounds cool! I agree, and i loved Jean's X2 TK bubble (as i also loved Invisible Woman's bubble - what is it with me and spherical force fields?).
I remember the one in the first Star Wars prequel, which they generate on the battlefield from two dynamo-type devices, and also the one in Independence Day that surrounds the spacecraft. Those also became visible only when there was an impact...

Reality seems relative. You can have a fiery aura in X2, and a Woman who could have destroyed the entire island and everything on it with her bare hands, but a firebird is too much? Yeah we don't want to exagerrate here

I was just rationalising... we know it was in the script, there is concept art in the X3 book (showing her with a fiery energy emanation, not obviously a bird's head and beak though), we have seen concept visuals showing various visible energy patterns around Jean. I'm just trying to wonder exactly why they didn't do it.

 

[javon]

^Nice info U two.

 

[BMM]

. . . Perhaps Jean's shrieking firebird also failed the reality test?

Yes, but Magneto’s magnetic powers do not maintain bright colorful displays, nor is it implied as such in the source material. They have simply been given illustration in the comic books so that people know when he is using his power. How else are they going to illustrate magnetism, particularly a magnetic force field? The same is done with Jean Grey’s telekinetic and telepathic abilities. The comic books acknowledge that such abilities are invisible. They were simply illustrated with wavy lines to acknowledge the use of their talents.

It’s not as though people are expecting Jean Grey to shoot the pink equivalent of a can of mace out of her forehead when employing her telepathy, as is being done in this panel.

Likewise with Banshee and Siryn. One doesn’t expect pink colored bolts to be issued from either of their mouths when they scream. This is simply the way in which the artists have chosen to depict the use of their mutant powers.

The Phoenix effect is entirely different. It is visible and is acknowledged as such.

In so far as any “reality test” is concerned, it passes X2’s as it was included in that movie. It should have been included in X-Men 3 as well. The Phoenix effect doesn’t need a massive bird head with blinking eyes and a cawing mouth. It doesn’t need to be flapping its wings and abducting people with its talons, as though it were some separate entity with Jean Grey in its center. The Phoenix effect can be done tastefully and on a large scale, while paying homage to the source material. If audiences are willing to buy that Cyclops can shoot massive optic blasts out of his head without blowing the entirety of his skull apart, I’m sure they can buy a Phoenix effect in some form or another. Hell, they already did. It was in X2. It’s been done, tested, and proven to work. It’s not as though people were watching the end of X2 saying, “Boo . . . no to the use of a Phoenix effect.”

Jean clearly put up a protective bubble around her when Cyke blasted her. You couldn't see the bubble, but you could see the effects it was having on his beams, how they were dissipating around them. Same idea would work with Magneto. You just see all the bullets, missiels, shrapnels, bouncing off and thus showing you the shape and effects of his field.

Great point.

 

[BMM]

Thanks for posting those scans BMM

Sure, no problem.

BMM, is it worth buying the CineFX? Or do you think I should wait for the DVD extras?

At this point, I would probably just wait until the DVD comes out. An issue of Cinefex is almost as expensive as the DVD, depending on where you live, and it doesn't provide much more information than what we already know. Almost all of the pictures featured in the article have been released online as well. If the DVD gives little commentary on the special effects, however, I might recommend it. It is an interesting read, but it's nothing special really. I'm willing to bet that the DVD is the better buy.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, but Magneto’s magnetic powers do not maintain bright colorful displays, nor is it implied as such in the source material. They have simply been given illustration in the comic books so that people know when he is using his power.

Not always true. When Magneto fought Xavier in a battle of willpower vs telepathy, in the issue when Magneto had an island base in the Bermuda triangle, there were 'weird lights all around the tower' where Magneto was. No doubt part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Notice also in X1, when he tears open the train there is, for an instant, a flash of the electromagnetic energy we see when he is the mutation machine on his island. (I loved seeing him in that machine, seeing the EM energy emerge as though pulled from his very cells, then snap together in the middle to form a sphere, then sending out a rippling mass of EM radiation). Other than that we only see his force as a ripple in the air (like when he lands next to Rogue atop the Statue of Liberty torch).

The cartoons also showed his energy more visibly, as a bubble of energy.

And in the X3 novelisation, he is described as surrounded in a crackling blue aura, like St Elmo's fire, while moving the bridge. The X1 prequel tales (although these are in comic form) show sparks of electrical discharge coming from him during use of his powers.

But i largely agree - in general there's been very little implication of his power being visible.

 

[Cyclops]

For me, it's not so much a problem in the fact that her firebird wasn't shown, it's that the SFX weren't consistent between films. It changed from having a fiery aura about her (or in her eyes) as she used her abilities to having solid black eyes and a darkening of her skintone.

The least they could have done was maintain consistency.

 

[My Red Sight]

I thought the eyes worked. When she used her powers for good they had fire in them. When she was evil they were black. Kind of stereotypical but it worked.

Consistancy kind of bothered me too. But they never actually tell you that the phoenix was working in the climax of X2, so it pretty much means that Jean and her powers (not phoenix and her subconcience powers) were the only precence lifting the Jet and such. Jean had Fire, and Phoenix was Zombie-like. Kind of backwards, but I still got chills when you see her fully transforming for the first time, or when she destroyed alcatraz.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

It wasn't consistent if you consider the Jean in X2 and the Jean in TLS to be the same person - they aren't, at least not mentally. The power coursing through Jean in X2 was not the "Phoenix", she still had her original mentality in tact at all times. This terrible thing that she feared, this was the Phoenix. She struggled to keep herself in control, and in turn, lost control over her abilities. When she lost total control (Jean rising in X3), "Phoenix" came about. And with this dark, conscious-free persona came a change in appearance as well. Jean's powers manifested as a fiery aura and eyes. When Phoenix took over Jean (X3) is when the visual representation changed to black eyes with dim, yellow/orange flames and a veiny, darkened face. When Jean's personality gave way to the Phoenix, so did her powers. I believe how she was represented throughout both movies in terms of effects is to show the extreme differences in personality, but also to show the evil of the Phoenix and the light of Jean.

 

[Cyclops]

Why would the physical manifestation of her powers change due to nothing more than a personality change? That makes no sense.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Why would the physical manifestation of her powers change due to nothing more than a personality change? That makes no sense.

Why do one's actions change with thier personalities?

It could be like: You're fighting someone. You punch for one reason; kick the other.

You could also say that it is a reflection of the individual personality.

She's very strong - at will, she could probably change any aspect of her physicality. The body does strange things subconsciously, and with the Phoenix who deals a lot with the subconscious minus Jean (that which Controlled), anger can manifest differently.


Might I add, that much of what happens in the X-Universe - even in the film-verse - doesn't make sense. Optic Beams, Phasing, Turning into ice, etc... are not possible or sensical in any term. Having a mutant gene that randomly creates this abilities doesn't logically cut it either. Allow a bit of whimsy... The X-Men are full of it, and lack scientific explanations.

 

[My Red Sight]

It would be a nice thought that instead of Jean being stabbed by wolverine, she could kill herself. And as she's killing herself she could return to the same effect we saw in the end of X2.

 

[chaseter]

It wasn't consistent if you consider the Jean in X2 and the Jean in TLS to be the same person - they aren't, at least not mentally. The power coursing through Jean in X2 was not the "Phoenix", she still had her original mentality in tact at all times. This terrible thing that she feared, this was the Phoenix. She struggled to keep herself in control, and in turn, lost control over her abilities. When she lost total control (Jean rising in X3), "Phoenix" came about. And with this dark, conscious-free persona came a change in appearance as well. Jean's powers manifested as a fiery aura and eyes. When Phoenix took over Jean (X3) is when the visual representation changed to black eyes with dim, yellow/orange flames and a veiny, darkened face. When Jean's personality gave way to the Phoenix, so did her powers. I believe how she was represented throughout both movies in terms of effects is to show the extreme differences in personality, but also to show the evil of the Phoenix and the light of Jean.

You said it perfectly. But a lot of people are still not going to understand this and gripe about no fire aura. Jean had the fire aura in X2 before she died. In X3 the Phoenix had the zombie look...like a corpse submerged in water for a week.

 

[flavio_lebeau]

[my mom] Jeez, she looks terrible[/my mom]

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I have to say, showing Jean with a fiery aura when she rises, and possibly a flare when she allowed herself to be killed would be extremely acceptable.

But would it be a bit much or confuse some viewers?