BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 3

[TeeKay]

Watch the first 30 seconds of the confrontation and tell me Superman didn't have ample time to put Bruce in his place. This film fails because in order for its two heroes to fight one and other it requires both of them to be idiots. Batman doesn't use his detective skills to discover who Clark really is, and Superman shuts his mouth when his mother's life is on the line. If even one of those things happen the fight never takes place. The 'greatest gladiator battle' amounts to both characters being watered down to suit the title of the film.



Watch it, but whatever you do don't purchase it.

In the UC, there's an extended scene where Superman picks up and throws Batman into an alley. He walks there,instead of talking to Bruce, what does he do? Spear heads him into a building. The first part where they meet, I get not being able to tell him because Bruce's weapons were getting off but after that? Nah. The fight was not well thought out and was ill conceived.

 

[Quasimod0]

I didn't think the fight was all that impressive either, just from like an excitement standpoint. I wasn't emotionally engaged, so I didn't really care about it too much.

 

[Micromind]

Watch the first 30 seconds of the confrontation and tell me Superman didn't have ample time to put Bruce in his place. This film fails because in order for its two heroes to fight one and other it requires both of them to be idiots. Batman doesn't use his detective skills to discover who Clark really is, and Superman shuts his mouth when his mother's life is on the line. If even one of those things happen the fight never takes place. The 'greatest gladiator battle' amounts to both characters being watered down to suit the title of the film.

Batman is hardly in his peak "mental condition" in this movie, he is driven by only one thing, his mission to kill Superman, here's what I posted about Batman in the other thread.

Batman as shown in BvS is neither world' greatest detective not he is thinking logically, without Alfred he would have gone insane, as Alfred says "Even you've got too old to die young, though not for lack of trying.", which suggests that he has become quite reckless and is lucky to have survived this long.

Batman is a shadow of his former self.

 

[Timebomb]

Batman is hardly in his peak "mental condition" in this movie, he is driven by only one thing, his mission to kill Superman, here's what I posted about Batman in the other thread.

I think that is jmc's problem, that you have to make a Batman at not his peak to make this fight happen. He has to be mentally off his game. That's part of the problem. As a fan of Batman, if you are going to make him "fall" then I want to be there for the ride and understand every step of the way. Not be feed some trumped up anger at Superman and some hints at past trauma.

 

[Whatupman]

Yeah, it's really lazy storytelling to only have the fight between Superman and Batman make any sense is to have Batman be mentally unstable. "Batman's reasoning is illogical? No, well, yes, but that's part of his character. He's supposed to not make any sense.". I would have been truly impressive if they managed to make the fight between them believable, with both of them thinking logically, but their wants and needs are on such a collision course that a fight is inevitable. But they went for the easy way instead.

 

[The Joker]

No. It basically just went from BVS, the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad movie to BVS, the terrible, horrible, very bad movie.

I'd agree with this. The 'improvements' are not nearly enough to turn someone who abhors the movie into loving it. The only people I've seen singing the praises of the UE are mainly the ones who were already fans of the movie.

 

[Logan0327]

^i hated the movie i gave it a 5-6/10 when i left theaters

UE made me give it a 7.5/10

you realize you dont either hate it or love it right you can be in the middle i just liked it going from hate to like is a big improvement for me

 

[The Joker]

Two things;

1. I said mainly the ones who love the UE already liked the movie. Not only. There's some minority exceptions, like you.

2. Is 6/10 typically a score you give movies you hate? That's a very generous score for a hated movie.

 

[Timebomb]

Everyone has there own scoring. For me it did fix some of the technical issues but not enough to make me swing even more than half a point. Still just too many issues.

 

[Sundancer]

I could have done without the foreshadowing of the JL movie. This movie stands better on its own if you take out the apocalytpic fight, Lex talking to alien before he's arrested, and the Flash's time travel scenes .

 

[jihado86]

Well, to first answer to the thread title :Everything went wrong with this movie. Everything.

and about the UC, if you already hated the theatrical, you'll still hate it. But if you liked the theatrical, you'll like it more.

the UC just fixes and connects some plot points, but the problem is : it fixed something already completely unnecessary which, from the beginning, is in the wrong path.

the writers/director, spent two hours to build to BvS battle, trying to make a solid plot. They condensated so many details, BUT, these details weren't convincing, and they took too long, they made those 2 hours extremely boring. PLUS, they made it like an investigation to reveal that Lex is behind everything, while (Surprise Surprise) we already know it's Lex. We didn't need to be invested in two hours of set-up to finally discover this "shocking " reveal.

For me, the origin of the big fail of this movie, is Warner Bros.
they forced the writers/director to ensure two things : Batman v Superman, and Dawn of Justice. They wanted to make Batman and Superman fight each others, and then set up to the Justice League.
Well, for the first thing : BvS, I already said what I think about the build-up (although I could spend hours talking about the details).
for the 2nd, the Justice League set-up, it was so lazy and out-of-place, it really screams "I must be in this movie". I think every JL setup was unnecessary in this movie, except Wonder Woman. I like to think that her presence was sort of an introduction, and I think it works here, in fact, it was the 2nd only thing that worked in this movie with Batfleck.

All in all, the movie is a big failure, a very big disappointment, and as I said, everything went wrong, and the guys here stated more details and ideas.

Goyer/Terrio should never be allowed to write a comic book movie again, they seemed like amateurs.
and for Zack Snyder, please take him out from everything related with DC.

 

[NeoRanger]

Is the Ultimate Cut worth watching for someone like myself (who abhors the movie, for many reasons already covered here)? Are there any issues that this newer cut "fixes" or "improves"?

It makes it a legitimately good movie. It doesn't make it the movie you want to see. Take this as you will and measure it against your problems with the theatrical cut (which I cannot realistically know better than you).


The answer to the question of the topic is "Warner Bros". Everything that went wrong can be traced back to them; to the Batman obsession, to allowing Snyder to make a 3-hour-long R-rated super-hero movie (which is a financial risk) and then wanting it butchered, to wanting everything to be like The Dark Knight, to shoving Justice League promotion shamelessly into the plot. There are about three movies in BvS and they are the ones who made it happen. I thought this to be the case with the theatrical cut, but after the UC it's only clearer. They need to collectively take a chill pill and just do their thing, instead of chasing ghosts.

 

[Vaibow]

I think in order for them to fight (if indeed they had too) they should have kept it really simple.
Bruce and Lex (both having agenda's) team up to finance the weaponization of kryptonite. They use Zod's body as the guinea pig. They test metals from the scout ship, the molten rock from the world engine, i mean, why did it take 2 years for lex to activate and get data from the ship? Wouldn't scientists have tried this straight away in the first month? Imagine if lex tells Bruce nothing works - but Bruce knows Lex is lying. It shows Bruce that Lex is up to no good, Bruce is also able to get his hands on his own sample and weapon. Also, Bruce and Lex both know Clark is Alien. This is the sub plot - we see Lex being Lex and well Bruce being Bruce.
Clark is also onto Bruce, we see Superman fly by Wayne Manor, Bruce looks out, the games are about to begin.
Batman going 'feral' could just be due to his age - he is losing the plot almost on his mission as Batman.
Clark reports this, same as the movie - then one night, as Batman takes down a heist - Superman joins in - he takes out batman, destroying the car and rounds up the villains for the GCPD.
Bruce is pissed - Supes just stepped on his turf - as superman goes back to talk to Batman, we see the Kryptonite ring - Bruce tells Clark he knows his secret, that he can defeat him and to back off, that batman and gotham is not his concern. Superman is laying there, sick, scared and confused. Batman tells him "i'm not the only one with this, so keep your friends close, but your enemies closer" and disappears.

Clark truly doesn't know what to do - on one hand, Bruce is cleaning up the streets and has some support, on the other, it's illegal and he has kryptonite.

Lex unleashes Metallo on Superman - whilst the fight happens, Bruce is watching - he knows superman is here for good, there is way too much evidence to suggest otherwise - Batman breaks into Lexcorp, taking out the security, downloads files and shuts the project all down. The facility is in ruins. Bruce is able to shut down Metallo for a minute, as he starts to reboot he takes refuge in an office and takes hostages. sating he has a bomb and will detonate it.
Outside, a weakened superman is joined by Batman as he infiltrates the building, sets off a smoke bomb distraction as Supes flies in taking him out of the equation and up into space. A green explosion fills the sky, inter cut by scenes of the bat jet flying away as military fly in.
The world truly sees Superman's selfless act - Lex is exposed and Batman for the first time, is seen outside of Gotham, in daytime - his tech truly exposed, his vigilante tag changed to hero.
A week later, Clark is back at the office - looking bruised, but then again, many others do too. He receives an invite to a fund raiser from Wayne industries.
As Bruce speaks about his business taking over sections of lexcorp, Clark steps aside as Alfred asks him to wait privately for Bruce.
Bruce enters the side lounge, he tells Clark 'i can't explain to you, what i am, i don't want too - we are two very different... people, but you have my word and as you saw, i have your back' - he extends his hand. Clark looks up 'i look for truth...' before Bruce interrupts 'and i look for justice'. Clark knows this is not his battle... and reporter mode appears 'so tell me what you found out about luthor'

Cuts to metropolis at night, Clarks apartment, he is on his Mac reading a file shared from Wayne - it's the meta humans.

 

[mightiest_mortal]

The biggest problem are fundamentally the weak storytelling imo, and Snyders continual need make a scene look cooler, without being bright enough to understand what the deeper significance of how it could effect things.

An example of the latter is the death of Bruce's parents. We've seen this even dozens of times before, but in Synders version Bruce's dad decides to preemptively take a swing at the guy holding a gun to him, and then his mum starts wrestling him with the gun. Sure, it makes it more of a "cool fight" but now we've changed Batmans whole origin to one where his parents managed to get themselves killed by their own absurd stupidity and violent actions. it's a HUGE change to the origin but Snyders too dumb to realise.

An example of the former is the entire characterisation and motivations of Batman. He hates/scared of Superman as he's worried that he could kill everyone and nobody could stop him... but then he manages to make the weapons to be able to stop him just over one montage scene... thus proving his entire reason for wanting him dead in the first place false anyway. But I could spend all day ripping holes in the story.

I don't know the best way to phrase this, but the movie is incredibly "bitty" as well. When it's not an action scene then it keeps jumping round all over the place unnecessarily. The whole first half of a movie plays like a clip-show of loads of little scenes rather than any cohesive story telling. There's no real structure or natural flow.

 

[idiot09]

The biggest problem are fundamentally the weak storytelling imo, and Snyders continual need make a scene look cooler, without being bright enough to understand what the deeper significance of how it could effect things.

An example of the latter is the death of Bruce's parents. We've seen this even dozens of times before, but in Synders version Bruce's dad decides to preemptively take a swing at the guy holding a gun to him, and then his mum starts wrestling him with the gun. Sure, it makes it more of a "cool fight" but now we've changed Batmans whole origin to one where his parents managed to get themselves killed by their own absurd stupidity and violent actions. it's a HUGE change to the origin but Snyders too dumb to realise.

I don't know the best way to phrase this, but the movie is incredibly "bitty" as well. When it's not an action scene then it keeps jumping round all over the place unnecessarily. The whole first half of a movie plays like a clip-show of loads of little scenes rather than any cohesive story telling. There's no real structure or natural flow.

The thing about Thomas Waybe going for the gun,is taken straight out of batman issue one and TDKR and many other comics as well.


You insinuate Snyder does these things because they are cool but these things are taken straight from comic book panels.You say he I dumb but the irony is you didn't realise that what he showed is faithful to some major comics interpretations.He basically had the whole TDKR murder panel to panel with the whole pearl thing.
https://bigotherbigother.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/page-231.jpg?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,5110622547
http://pulpnation.ca/wp-content/upl...ht-returns-and-the-injustice-comic-904781.jpg
http://www.thequality.com/flics/10weeks/blog/archives/images/Batman Origin copy-thumb.jpg
Also the pacing and editing is miles better in Snyder's cut.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

The thing about Thomas Waybe going for the gun,is taken straight out of batman issue one and TDKR and many other comics as well.


You insinuate Snyder does these things because they are cool but these things are taken straight from comic book panels.You say he I dumb but the irony is you didn't realise that what he showed is faithful to some major comics interpretations.He basically had the whole TDKR murder panel to panel with the whole pearl thing.
https://bigotherbigother.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/page-231.jpg?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,5110622547
http://pulpnation.ca/wp-content/upl...ht-returns-and-the-injustice-comic-904781.jpg
http://www.thequality.com/flics/10weeks/blog/archives/images/Batman Origin copy-thumb.jpg
Also the pacing and editing is miles better in Snyder's cut.

Nice rebuttal man. Thanks for posting those, I had forgotten that's exactly how it went in DKR, down to the fist balling up and the necklace getting caught in the gun like that. That scene was really well done, the music was perfect, the story's already been told so many times, but this was a fresh perspective that felt more like a comic book the way it was shot, it managed to have a real emotional impact (for me at least) in a very small window of time, so that we get the origin without having to go through it all over again so soon after Begins.

 

[AnneFan]

It's the best representation of the sequence in my opinion. The visuals and music are spot on. It hit me hard even though we've seen it so many times.

 

[BatLobster]

Just because he recreated the TDKR panels doesn't make it inherently good. Just like his Watchmen movie isn't inherently good just because it recreated so many panels from that book.

I can't friggin' stand the slow motion shot of little Bruce screaming. Hated it in the SDCC Trailer and hated it in the film. Everything about that opening scene just comes across as, "DARKNESS, BRUH. "NO PARENTS, BRUH." "THOMAS WAYNE IS A BAD@SS, BRUH." "MOMMY SHOT IN THE FACE, HOW HARDCORE IS THIS BRUH?"

That's the problem with Snyder, whether intentional or not all of that just radiates off the screen with the combination of his visual style and his "edgy" take on the material. It just feels adolescent. I'm pretty sure I would've loved BvS and Snyder if it came out when I was 16.

 

[idiot09]

Nobody said just because he is recreating panels,made it good.The context was,the guy said Snyder changed bruce's origin to make it cooler,as if deviating from the source....while in reality,Snyder's retelling is in accordance with Batman's seminal graphic novel,The Dark Knight Returns,and is also in accordance with Batman issue one.So the claim that its somehow a Snyder invention is not true.You are free to dislike something that happened a lot in comics before,and you are free to dislike something the they recreated in the movies. Snyder is not the original creator,he is merely being faithful to the lore.You have a problem with the lore,not Snyder.And thats fine,I also dont like a lot of famous things in comics,but dont take it out of context.

 

[titansupes]

Just because he recreated the TDKR panels doesn't make it inherently good. Just like his Watchmen movie isn't inherently good just because it recreated so many panels from that book.

I can't friggin' stand the slow motion shot of little Bruce screaming. Hated it in the SDCC Trailer and hated it in the film. Everything about that opening scene just comes across as, "DARKNESS, BRUH. "NO PARENTS, BRUH." "THOMAS WAYNE IS A BAD@SS, BRUH." "MOMMY SHOT IN THE FACE, HOW HARDCORE IS THIS BRUH?"

That's the problem with Snyder, whether intentional or not all of that just radiates off the screen with the combination of his visual style and his "edgy" take on the material. It just feels adolescent. I'm pretty sure I would've loved BvS and Snyder if it came out when I was 16.

Man, seriously, these are the EXACT movies I was asking for when I was 14 and just getting back into comics. It was seeing an image of Jim Lee's then upcoming For Tomorrow which triggered it... And I thought it was so great how Superman was all angry and doubtful and red-eyed, and operated it a dark world and it was sooo cool and soooo deep! And the movies should be like that! With slow-motion and choir music and darkness! 14 year old me would have been all over BvS.

... And then I grew out of that **** at about 17 or 18.

More on-topic: The opening is really nice to watch (Beautiful Lie is so great) but it's so overstylized it feels more like a music video than a genuinely dramatic scene to me. It just... tries so hard.

 

[The Joker]

Just because he recreated the TDKR panels doesn't make it inherently good. Just like his Watchmen movie isn't inherently good just because it recreated so many panels from that book.

I can't friggin' stand the slow motion shot of little Bruce screaming. Hated it in the SDCC Trailer and hated it in the film. Everything about that opening scene just comes across as, "DARKNESS, BRUH. "NO PARENTS, BRUH." "THOMAS WAYNE IS A BAD@SS, BRUH." "MOMMY SHOT IN THE FACE, HOW HARDCORE IS THIS BRUH?"

That's the problem with Snyder, whether intentional or not all of that just radiates off the screen with the combination of his visual style and his "edgy" take on the material. It just feels adolescent. I'm pretty sure I would've loved BvS and Snyder if it came out when I was 16.

Well said

 

[The Shape]

Recreating comic book panels doesn't make something inherently good, but it doesn't make something inherently bad, either.

I wouldn't have been happy if the film was comprised almost entirely of slow-motion, stylized sequences that were all ripped from the pages of the same comic (a la Watchmen), but in the case of this flashback, I feel the presentation of the scene was completely justified and effective in how it was used.

This is a moment that we've seen presented countless times in various ways across all mediums. There's obviously a stark difference between the way Nolan and Snyder chose to do it, but there's good reason for that IMO. In Batman Begins, we witness the event in real-time with a proper build up of tension because we see everything that led up to the moment and then everything afterwards. It's presented in a way that feels visceral and true to life, echoing how everything can change in a second's time and a boy's life can be altered forever. BOOM BOOM. That's it.

In BvS, we see a dramatic presentation of the moment, but in the form of a flashback/dream sequence juxtaposed with Bruce falling into the cave (then rising up) and a voiceover. "There was a time above... a time before... there were perfect things... diamond absolutes. But things fall..."

Setting aside the obvious TDKR influence, it makes sense to me that we see his parents killed in such a stylized, dramatic way here. Not only is it seemingly part of a dream, but it's also like Bruce thinking back to this pivotal moment as he remembers it and how it's played out in his mind over and over again for decades. It's obviously not how the moment would have played out in real-time, but instead, there's a focus on the small details and images that might have been ingrained into Bruce's mind. Standing behind his father, the gun firing, shell casing hitting the ground, the gun caught in the necklace, pearls rolling into the sewer, his father saying "Martha", his mother's eyes as the life left her, etc.

I disagree that such stylization feels adolescent. It can feel that way depending on the subject matter and overall presentation (like in Snyder's 300 and I'm guessing Sucker Punch although I haven't seen that), but I didn't get that vibe here. The scene is presented in a way that is evocative of reading a comic book, with a rhythmic organization of images depicting the event. The idea that such elements of visual storytelling/stylization in a film are best suited to adolescents is kind of silly to me.

 

[idiot09]

Recreating comic book panels doesn't make something inherently good, but it doesn't make something inherently bad, either.

I wouldn't have been happy if the film was comprised almost entirely of slow-motion, stylized sequences that were all ripped from the pages of the same comic (a la Watchmen), but in the case of this flashback, I feel the presentation of the scene was completely justified and effective in how it was used.

This is a moment that we've seen presented countless times in various ways across all mediums. There's obviously a stark difference between the way Nolan and Snyder chose to do it, but there's good reason for that IMO. In Batman Begins, we witness the event in real-time with a proper build up of tension because we see everything that led up to the moment and then everything afterwards. It's presented in a way that feels visceral and true to life, echoing how everything can change in a second's time and a boy's life can be altered forever. BOOM BOOM. That's it.

In BvS, we see a dramatic presentation of the moment, but in the form of a flashback/dream sequence juxtaposed with Bruce falling into the cave (then rising up) and a voiceover. "There was a time above... a time before... there were perfect things... diamond absolutes. But things fall..."

Setting aside the obvious TDKR influence, it makes sense to me that we see his parents killed in such a stylized, dramatic way here. Not only is it seemingly part of a dream, but it's also like Bruce thinking back to this pivotal moment as he remembers it and how it's played out in his mind over and over again for decades. It's obviously not how the moment would have played out in real-time, but instead, there's a focus on the small details and images that might have been ingrained into Bruce's mind. Standing behind his father, the gun firing, shell casing hitting the ground, the gun caught in the necklace, pearls rolling into the sewer, his father saying "Martha", his mother's eyes as the life left her, etc.

I disagree that such stylization feels adolescent. It can feel that way depending on the subject matter and overall presentation (like in Snyder's 300 and I'm guessing Sucker Punch although I haven't seen that), but I didn't get that vibe here. The scene is presented in a way that is evocative of reading a comic book, with a rhythmic organization of images depicting the event. The idea that such elements of visual storytelling/stylization in a film are best suited to adolescents is kind of silly to me.

Extremely well said.To imply a stylized dramatic sequence(the only one iirc) feels adolescent is just not true.Many other comics like V for Vendetta are also adult/dark and gritty like Watchmen and TDKR and to say they are only for edgy teens is frankly an insult to such tremendous works.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

Recreating comic book panels doesn't make something inherently good, but it doesn't make something inherently bad, either.

I wouldn't have been happy if the film was comprised almost entirely of slow-motion, stylized sequences that were all ripped from the pages of the same comic (a la Watchmen), but in the case of this flashback, I feel the presentation of the scene was completely justified and effective in how it was used.

This is a moment that we've seen presented countless times in various ways across all mediums. There's obviously a stark difference between the way Nolan and Snyder chose to do it, but there's good reason for that IMO. In Batman Begins, we witness the event in real-time with a proper build up of tension because we see everything that led up to the moment and then everything afterwards. It's presented in a way that feels visceral and true to life, echoing how everything can change in a second's time and a boy's life can be altered forever. BOOM BOOM. That's it.

In BvS, we see a dramatic presentation of the moment, but in the form of a flashback/dream sequence juxtaposed with Bruce falling into the cave (then rising up) and a voiceover. "There was a time above... a time before... there were perfect things... diamond absolutes. But things fall..."

Setting aside the obvious TDKR influence, it makes sense to me that we see his parents killed in such a stylized, dramatic way here. Not only is it seemingly part of a dream, but it's also like Bruce thinking back to this pivotal moment as he remembers it and how it's played out in his mind over and over again for decades. It's obviously not how the moment would have played out in real-time, but instead, there's a focus on the small details and images that might have been ingrained into Bruce's mind. Standing behind his father, the gun firing, shell casing hitting the ground, the gun caught in the necklace, pearls rolling into the sewer, his father saying "Martha", his mother's eyes as the life left her, etc.

I disagree that such stylization feels adolescent. It can feel that way depending on the subject matter and overall presentation (like in Snyder's 300 and I'm guessing Sucker Punch although I haven't seen that), but I didn't get that vibe here. The scene is presented in a way that is evocative of reading a comic book, with a rhythmic organization of images depicting the event. The idea that such elements of visual storytelling/stylization in a film are best suited to adolescents is kind of silly to me.

Well said

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Just because he recreated the TDKR panels doesn't make it inherently good. Just like his Watchmen movie isn't inherently good just because it recreated so many panels from that book.

I can't friggin' stand the slow motion shot of little Bruce screaming. Hated it in the SDCC Trailer and hated it in the film. Everything about that opening scene just comes across as, "DARKNESS, BRUH. "NO PARENTS, BRUH." "THOMAS WAYNE IS A BAD@SS, BRUH." "MOMMY SHOT IN THE FACE, HOW HARDCORE IS THIS BRUH?"

That's the problem with Snyder, whether intentional or not all of that just radiates off the screen with the combination of his visual style and his "edgy" take on the material. It just feels adolescent. I'm pretty sure I would've loved BvS and Snyder if it came out when I was 16.

Man, seriously, these are the EXACT movies I was asking for when I was 14 and just getting back into comics. It was seeing an image of Jim Lee's then upcoming For Tomorrow which triggered it... And I thought it was so great how Superman was all angry and doubtful and red-eyed, and operated it a dark world and it was sooo cool and soooo deep! And the movies should be like that! With slow-motion and choir music and darkness! 14 year old me would have been all over BvS.

... And then I grew out of that **** at about 17 or 18.

Agreed with these posts. Snyder try to make it different for sake of it and it just come off adolescent with slo mo effect lol.

Extremely well said.To imply a stylized dramatic sequence(the only one iirc) feels adolescent is just not true.Many other comics like V for Vendetta are also adult/dark and gritty like Watchmen and TDKR and to say they are only for edgy teens is frankly an insult to such tremendous works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8TymrRwzO4&t=1m14s

lol sorry but it just make me think of that.