The Flash What will this new world look like? (spoilers inside)

[Mike Murdock]

On a more positive, but still Arrow related note, what are the odds Robert Queen plays a role in Flashpoint and serves a similar role to the one played be Thomas Wayne in the original story?

I think they already did a tribute to that in Earth 2. I doubt they'd do it again.

IMO, it would be bad writing to change the events of Arrow based on what happened in Flash, since the audience doesn't completely overlap. To me, there are two possible explanations. One is the changes will be relatively contained to Central City. This would allow Flash to explore the new timeline for much of the season since the changes will be limited to Flash changes. The other would be to set Flash in an alternate timeline for now. This will allow them to go crazy with the changes, but they'd have to resolve things by the time of the first crossover.

I'm not sure which I'd prefer. The actual Flashpoint story isn't all that long so it's certainly possible to go with the latter.

 

[Eni]

Red Emblem Flash disappeared because he never time traveled back because he had no reason to.

Obviously, he's not losing his powers. I think that is clear given that he didn't disappear. However, that doesn't mean that the season 3 opener won't show the current version of Barry disappearing to start the episode. If he doesn't disappear, then obviously Barry won't lose his powers. If he does, then he'll likely lose his powers until he can correct the timeline.

We are going to have to wait until season 3 to see the consequences of this and for all we know the start of season 3 could be Barry disappearing and then waking up in the new timeline, aware of what went on but completely powerless.

Red Emblem Flash is Barry of season two from last season. If he disappears, so should Barry of season two. Maybe he will in the beginning of season 3 like you say, but I find they let this season end on a very odd note if they do.

If Barry wakes up in this new timeline in season 3, he should be a completely new character, like in season one. This means, we would follow a new Barry Allen around, which I doubt is going to be the case. I'm curious how the writers are going to explain this. I wonder whether they are able to come up with something plausible. Barry wasn't even in the speed force at that time, otherwise they could have used that excuse like in season 2 with Eobard.

 

[cleverusername8]

I'm feeling like this Flashpoint thing will only be a two or three episode arc that will end in a New 52-style soft reboot of not only Flash, but Arrow as well. The result wil integrate Supergirl's Earth and set the stories on a new course.

I'm thinking that LoT will remain unaffected because they might end up heading off to Jay Garrick's Earth to interact with the established JSA there. There's no way that there has been an Earth-One JSA that hasn't made themselves known to the likes of the Time Masters, team Flash, or one of the factions in Arrow. They'll be on another Earth to explore that world's timeline.

Back to Flash, I'm thinking that the new continuity will include a fully Vibed-out Cisco, a Killer Frost Caitlin that was never allied with Star Labs or team Flash, an Iris who was never a step-sister of Barry to remove that layer of weirdness and put her as a solid love interest moving forward, a Wally who has speed, and perhaps either a dead, disabled, or retired Joe in order to switch up his role as mentor (put him out of action and in a more vulnerable place).

I have no evidence of any of this, but it's something of my wishlist for the third season.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I think they already did a tribute to that in Earth 2. I doubt they'd do it again.

IMO, it would be bad writing to change the events of Arrow based on what happened in Flash, since the audience doesn't completely overlap. To me, there are two possible explanations. One is the changes will be relatively contained to Central City. This would allow Flash to explore the new timeline for much of the season since the changes will be limited to Flash changes. The other would be to set Flash in an alternate timeline for now. This will allow them to go crazy with the changes, but they'd have to resolve things by the time of the first crossover.

I'm not sure which I'd prefer. The actual Flashpoint story isn't all that long so it's certainly possible to go with the latter.

That's what I expect they'll do, I don't expect to see any notable impact on the other shows from Flashpoint. The shows timelines don't need to matchup perfectly with each other, they didn't this season after all.

 

[Syncos]

If Barry wakes up in this new timeline in season 3, he should be a completely new character, like in season one. This means, we would follow a new Barry Allen around, which I doubt is going to be the case. I'm curious how the writers are going to explain this. I wonder whether they are able to come up with something plausible. Barry wasn't even in the speed force at that time, otherwise they could have used that excuse like in season 2 with Eobard.

In the actual Flashpoint book, he wakes up remembering everything that happened in the pre-altered timeline, but his mother is alive, and he's powerless.

Maybe Flashpoint is the reason Eobard came back to the past and hates Barry soo much. Perhaps like in the book those events are going to end the world. Would be kind of a nice twist, and turn Wells-Thawne into a hero of his time. Doing bad things for the right reasons.

Come to think of it. Barry's story in flashpoint is more or less disconnected from the Amazon/Atlantis war. They could probably reference that happening a whole bunch, without having any actual contact with Aquaman or Wonder Woman... If they decide to go that route.

 

[Frodo]

I actually think that Barry will still be the Flash in the new timeline and he won't be powerless as he was in the comics. He was going to become the Flash regardless of whether Thawne killed Nora or not.

The real earth one Wells was going to build the machine at a later point in time in which Barry would eventually become the Flash. What Thawne did was make Barry become Flash earlier in time in order to get home, not to prevent Barry from becoming the Flash. The question from season one was when he became the Flash, not if he would become the Flash.

I think the potential changes could be the result of what Barry did are that:

1) Joe and Barry aren't as close and could potentially mirror the dynamic that earth two Barry and Joe have.

2) Barry and Iris could potentially be together because in this timeline , Barry isn't raised as Iris's brother, thus she could see him as more of a potential mate than brother/friendzone of season one, or she would be with Eddie again. Barry could also have a different gf.

3) Eddie, Wells, Henry, Nora, and even Ronnie, would be alive, while Snow may be more likely to become or be Killer Frost .

4) Cisco may remember the previous timeline and be the only person who's in on what Barry did.

5) Reverse Flash would return as a series bad with the earth one version of Hunter Zoloman having becoming a Potential villain.

6) You could potentially have a different main bad as the season villain , reflecting the new timeline Barry created.

These are ways the story could go, not saying it has to or will go this route.

 

[KidFlash6969]

What I'd like to see:

1. Wally West is a speedster

2. E3 Jay Garrick played by JWS is a long time good friend and mentor to Barry

3. Barry and Iris are married or engaged

 

[Sara Lance]

I want a radically different world.

I want to see shockwaves rippling through time. I want to see world where WW2 ended up in a tie and the Nazis rule half of Europe with the Holocause being swept aside by history like the Armenian genocide.

I want to see America where civil rights are still a long way to go and his Joe and Iris aren't even allowed to drink from the same water fountain as him.

I want to see Oliver being a compete psychopath in charge or Argus and hunting metas brutally. And Cailtlin standing by his side and doing horrible experiments

I want to see Felicity being a full on anarchist hacker who doesn't care who gets hurt

I want to see Barry finally realising the true horror of his action. hat you cannot go around messing with the universe and endangering billions of lives just because you feel bad or someone you love is in danger. I want Barry to go into in fetal position and be utterly terrified of even the possibility of having to mess with time or other dimensions again.

It's time already. I like Barry but he keeps behaving like a total dick when it comes to these powers. This needs to end and if

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I have a hard time believing this show's writers would go not those kind of directions. In fact I have a hard time believing that the show will have a new status quo for any extended period of time. Maybe two to three episodes will be in this new altered Earth but that's it. Prove me wrong Berlanti.

 

[Dark Raven]

I want a radically different world.

I want to see shockwaves rippling through time. I want to see world where WW2 ended up in a tie and the Nazis rule half of Europe with the Holocause being swept aside by history like the Armenian genocide.

I want to see America where civil rights are still a long way to go and his Joe and Iris aren't even allowed to drink from the same water fountain as him.

I want to see Oliver being a compete psychopath in charge or Argus and hunting metas brutally. And Cailtlin standing by his side and doing horrible experiments

I want to see Felicity being a full on anarchist hacker who doesn't care who gets hurt

I want to see Barry finally realising the true horror of his action. hat you cannot go around messing with the universe and endangering billions of lives just because you feel bad or someone you love is in danger. I want Barry to go into in fetal position and be utterly terrified of even the possibility of having to mess with time or other dimensions again.

It's time already. I like Barry but he keeps behaving like a total dick when it comes to these powers. This needs to end and if

I don't see WWII affected by Barry's actions. How would it? He only travelled back to the time of his mother's murder, which was decades after all these events you mention. There hasn't even been any time travelling show where the present (which would be Barry's present at the time he saved Nora) would affect the past, especially the distant past. How would those time travel rules work?

The only events which would be affected would be everything from that night, which would be everything from the past 20 years or so.

 

[Sara Lance]

I don't see WWII affected by Barry's actions. How would it? He only travelled back to the time of his mother's murder, which was decades after all these events you mention. There hasn't even been any time travelling show where the present (which would be Barry's present at the time he saved Nora) would affect the past, especially the distant past. How would those time travel rules work?

The only events which would be affected would be everything from that night, which would be everything from the past 20 years or so.

I don't remember exactly how they phrased it but in the movie but they said that his travelling through time had ripple effects and kinda sent time shockwaves that spread everywhere

Oh here. I found the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfG6jffSwGc
[YT]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfG6jffSwGcg[/YT]

 

[TheRedWraith]

In the actual Flashpoint book, he wakes up remembering everything that happened in the pre-altered timeline, but his mother is alive, and he's powerless.

Maybe Flashpoint is the reason Eobard came back to the past and hates Barry soo much. Perhaps like in the book those events are going to end the world. Would be kind of a nice twist, and turn Wells-Thawne into a hero of his time. Doing bad things for the right reasons.

Come to think of it. Barry's story in flashpoint is more or less disconnected from the Amazon/Atlantis war. They could probably reference that happening a whole bunch, without having any actual contact with Aquaman or Wonder Woman... If they decide to go that route.

They could easily keep that war aspect by subbing them with loa and hive, Darhk's plan even works well as a replacement for Captain Atom detonating and destroying the world/human society. The league would be at full strength because Oliver died and killer Robert not having any Sara and no vested insterest in stopping the league, while he also killed Merlin removing his machinations or Oliver never stopped being a killer and got worse making him perfectly okay with the League and their ways maybe he even joined sincerely and is the new Ra's (with old Ra's serving as his advisor).

Harrison takes on the portion of batman about restoring powers while Robert or Oliver take on the vigilante side of things. The super team assembled to fight both the loa and the League would be Atom in place for cyborg and firestorm as the replacement for Shazam. Zoom/Black Flash or Eobard could be the villain(s) in it haunting Barry. Supergirl fills in for superman as the caged Kryptonian with Kal-El having died as a baby upon arrival to make the world that much darker and more depressing (possibly with an earth 1 supergirl always having been caged in the other normal cw show altered timeline or maybe Earth-S was merged with earth-1 in the process of creating flashpoint) the merging worlds bit was even in the normal flashpoint as the merging of the Wildstorm, DC main universe and the Vertigo universes was what created the new 52. When he fixes it either earth 1 Supergirl was never captured (along with Kal el) and the events of Supergirl season 1 happened relatively unchanged with maybe some minor differences to smooth over continuity or earth s stays merged and the kryptonians aren't capture allowing again for season 1 Supergirl to happen relatively unchanged in earth 1.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Again... I kind of doubt this show will go all out with an adaptation of FLASHPOINT that jibes with that level of sophistication or scope. I know I am in the minority but... The show has not shown any indication it is capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence. It just hasn't. Lower expectations. At best I am betting a few episodes of season three to be about this alt timeline and then back to normal with some new threat revealed or created by the new timeline which gets stretched out for a whole season even after things are restored to the status quo, which again will at best be three to four episodes.

 

[TheRedWraith]

Again... I kind of doubt this show will go all out with an adaptation of FLASHPOINT that jibes with that level of sophistication or scope. I know I am in the minority but... The show has not shown any indication it is capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence. It just hasn't. Lower expectations. At best I am betting a few episodes of season three to be about this alt timeline and then back to normal with some new threat revealed or created by the new timeline which gets stretched out for a whole season even after things are restored to the status quo, which again will at best be three to four episodes.

Oh I agree this show isn't the most sophisticated, but it is the most sophisticated of the dc cw shows and has shown some very promising hints of potential higher level sophistication, while also crushing blows of sophistication lows. So my musings are me being hopeful about what they could do as who wants to speculate about the mundane and lows.

 

[Syncos]

Again... I kind of doubt this show will go all out with an adaptation of FLASHPOINT that jibes with that level of sophistication or scope. I know I am in the minority but... The show has not shown any indication it is capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence. It just hasn't. Lower expectations. At best I am betting a few episodes of season three to be about this alt timeline and then back to normal with some new threat revealed or created by the new timeline which gets stretched out for a whole season even after things are restored to the status quo, which again will at best be three to four episodes.

Doubt it will even be three-four episodes. It'll probably be rectified in one.
That being said, if the Flashpoint animated movie can do a full telling in an hour an 20 minutes, I don't see why they couldn't tell a decent telling in an hour.

If they were really smart and wanted to just go for it, They should just do a joint premier between Arrow and Flash, and have it back to back on the Tuesday with an Encore on Wednesday.

Your other comments about the show not being "capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence." is basically eyeroll worthy. I love Geoff Johns, and I love DC comics. But Flashpoint isn't exactly a magnum opus.
They could pretty easily tame it down a bit and do a faithful retelling. Even if I don't think they should.

 

[TheRedWraith]

Doubt it will even be three-four episodes. It'll probably be rectified in one.
That being said, if the Flashpoint animated movie can do a full telling in an hour an 20 minutes, I don't see why they couldn't tell a decent telling in an hour.

If they were really smart and wanted to just go for it, They should just do a joint premier between Arrow and Flash, and have it back to back on the Tuesday with an Encore on Wednesday.

Your other comments about the show not being "capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence." is basically eyeroll worthy. I love Geoff Johns, and I love DC comics. But Flashpoint isn't exactly a magnum opus.
They could pretty easily tame it down a bit and do a faithful retelling. Even if I don't think they should.

Except arrow isn't an hour it is around 40 minutes long so to properly explore it I think at least 2 episodes are needed.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Doubt it will even be three-four episodes. It'll probably be rectified in one.
That being said, if the Flashpoint animated movie can do a full telling in an hour an 20 minutes, I don't see why they couldn't tell a decent telling in an hour.

If they were really smart and wanted to just go for it, They should just do a joint premier between Arrow and Flash, and have it back to back on the Tuesday with an Encore on Wednesday.

Your other comments about the show not being "capable of delivering that level of complexity or excellence." is basically eyeroll worthy. I love Geoff Johns, and I love DC comics. But Flashpoint isn't exactly a magnum opus.
They could pretty easily tame it down a bit and do a faithful retelling. Even if I don't think they should.

Listen... There's nothing eyeroll worthy since... FLASHPOINT isn't some grand epic well written WATCHMAN/DARK KNIGHT level story from the comics... But even THAT is beyond this show's creative team in my frank opinion. And such a story or an adaptation being done in 45 minutes.. Wow would that just come of silly and cheap... But then, as mentioned, that might be the best this team can come up with.

 

[Thome216]

Its like we watched these seasons for nothing then.....
a roller coaster with no ending....great for some...but all the relationships that was built....OVER

That's precisely what I don't like about these style endings. They take everything that was done and simply erase it, despite the consequences.

The same thing happened after the first season of Witchblade and I hated it.

At first, Barry was all about forgetting Earth-2, but then he was all about saving it from Zoom, as well as the Man in the Iron Mask. But then going back to save his mother, dumps that entire sequence.

I know he wanted to have his mother back, this after already actually saying goodbye to her once before, but to go back anyway - after they've won in spectacular fashion and just throw away everyone's hard work and hard-won peace is just incredibly selfish.

Now Zoom is still in control of Earth-2, rather than a threat that can finally be laid to rest, Jay Garrick is still a prisoner, and Reverse-Flash is still a future threat.

In that scenario, there's no reason for Supergirl to be involved, because her world would be unaffected by what Barry did to Earth-1's timeline.

With no Kara or Clark on Earth-1, does that mean Krypton died will all its people, or did Astra succeed in beating her sister and now rules a brain-washed Krypton..? And will this ever come into play..?


Oh, and hence forth whenever anyone speaks of Kara and Barry, you must refer to them as the singular KareBare!

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

That's precisely what I don't like about these style endings. They take everything that was done and simply erase it, despite the consequences.

At first, Barry was all about forgetting Earth-2, but then he was all about saving it from Zoom, as well as the Man in the Iron Mask. But then going back to save his mother, dumps that entire sequence.

I know he wanted to have his mother back, this after already actually saying goodbye to her once before, but to go back anyway - after they've won in spectacular fashion and just throw away everyone's hard work and hard-won peace is just incredibly selfish.

Now Zoom is still in control of Earth-2, rather than a threat that can finally be laid to rest, Jay Garrick is still a prisoner, and Reverse-Flash is still a future threat.

I think you bring up some good points. I just don't have faith that such logical consequences will be addressed by this writing team in any depth.

 

[Thome216]

I hope they have the fortitude to address those issues. It would play big emotionally, especially if the others learn they did it all once before, and now must do it all over again.

It actually says a lot more about Barry not feeling at peace or at home with his friends and family. To him they were not enough. Kinda sad really...

 

[metaphysician]

With no Kara or Clark on Earth-1, does that mean Krypton died will all its people, or did Astra succeed in beating her sister and now rules a brain-washed Krypton..? And will this ever come into play..?

Who knows? We don't even really know if Krypton exists in Earth-1. It could be the divergence point was "Krypton exploded a generation earlier". I wouldn't expect any hints at all until we see some actual information about aliens in Earth-1, and even then, it may just never come up.

 

[Thome216]

That's precisely what I don't like about these style endings. They take everything that was done and simply erase it, despite the consequences.

The same thing happened after the first season of Witchblade and I hated it.

At first, Barry was all about forgetting Earth-2, but then he was all about saving it from Zoom, as well as the Man in the Iron Mask. But then going back to save his mother, dumps that entire sequence.

I know he wanted to have his mother back, this after already actually saying goodbye to her once before, but to go back anyway - after they've won in spectacular fashion and just throw away everyone's hard work and hard-won peace is just incredibly selfish.

Now Zoom is still in control of Earth-2, rather than a threat that can finally be laid to rest, Jay Garrick is still a prisoner, and Reverse-Flash is still a future threat.

Now I'm wondering if I am wrong about Earth 2 resetting because Barry altered Earth 1's timeline by saving his Mother.

Yes, his doing so alters nearly everything that happened on Earth 1, but then I must realize that those events did happen with Earth 2. It is an entirely different universe, with is own laws and strength - in that it has its own momentum that I now think would cancel out any divergent ripples in the timeline from Earth 1. In fact, being separate universes, there is no reason for anything done beyond the breach's horizon on E1 to effect E2, much less the Super-verse where Supergirl is.

I started thinking this when I mentioned in another thread that these universes, though there are similarities, do not move in lock-step. But for the brief moments when the breaches are in existence, they are entirely independent of each other.

So Barry did go to E2, he did defeat Zoom on E1 and he did release Jay Garrick and sent him and Dr Wells and his daughter back to E2. But then the breach was closed. Their universes no longer co-exist and no ripple in the timeline Barry creates on E1 after that, such as going back into E1's history and saving his mother, can cross to any other multiverse.

So, if E2 Wells were to open a breach from E2 to E1, after Barry altered the timeline, he would have memories of a history that no longer existed.

Barry created a paradox, where people beyond the breach can have memories of events that, for anyone on E1 are concerned, never happened.

So now I think that E2 is moving along a timeline that Barry broke E1 away from, and either created an entirely new timeline or reverted E1 to a previous timeline.

I like this better, because now I don't think that Barry threw everything away when he changed the past. The only timeline he screwed up was E1's.

And now my brain is Homered...

 

[TheRedWraith]

Now I'm wondering if I am wrong about Earth 2 resetting because Barry altered Earth 1's timeline by saving his Mother.

Yes, his doing so alters nearly everything that happened on Earth 1, but then I must realize that those events did happen with Earth 2. It is an entirely different universe, with is own laws and strength - in that it has its own momentum that I now think would cancel out any divergent ripples in the timeline from Earth 1. In fact, being separate universes, there is no reason for anything done beyond the breach's horizon on E1 to effect E2, much less the Super-verse where Supergirl is.

I started thinking this when I mentioned in another thread that these universes, though there are similarities, do not move in lock-step. But for the brief moments when the breaches are in existence, they are entirely independent of each other.

So Barry did go to E2, he did defeat Zoom on E1 and he did release Jay Garrick and sent him and Dr Wells and his daughter back to E2. But then the breach was closed. Their universes no longer co-exist and no ripple in the timeline Barry creates on E1 after that, such as going back into E1's history and saving his mother, can cross to any other multiverse.

So, if E2 Wells were to open a breach from E2 to E1, after Barry altered the timeline, he would have memories of a history that no longer existed.

Barry created a paradox, where people beyond the breach can have memories of events that, for anyone on E1 are concerned, never happened.

So now I think that E2 is moving along a timeline that Barry broke E1 away from, and either created an entirely new timeline or reverted E1 to a previous timeline.

I like this better, because now I don't think that Barry threw everything away when he changed the past. The only timeline he screwed up was E1's.

And now my brain is Homered...

Except he would have had to have been the flash to do that and he won't be the flash until 2020 with eobard to speed up construction of the accelerator, and it isn't a matter of ripples going through portals it is that causality no longer supports the universal travel to have happened so it never happened and Zoom is still a menace on earth 2.

 

[Thome216]

What I mean is, in that universe he was the Flash and he did defeat Zoom. However, once back on Earth 1 with the breach closed, he could do whatever he wanted (and did) and it would have no effect on a now entirely separate universe.

It's a paradox, as there is now an Effect without a Cause.

Earth 2 will simply wonder what happened to Zoom and rejoice that he's gone.
If they were two planets in the same universe, then their timeline would also alter. But with the universes now separated, there should no change in E2s timeline, as there is no connection now between the two.

 

[TheRedWraith]

What I mean is, in that universe he was the Flash and he did defeat Zoom. However, once back on Earth 1 with the breach closed, he could do whatever he wanted (and did) and it would have no effect on a now entirely separate universe.

It's a paradox, as there is now an Effect without a Cause.

Earth 2 will simply wonder what happened to Zoom and rejoice that he's gone.
If they were two planets in the same universe, then their timeline would also alter. But with the universes now separated, there should no change in E2s timeline, as there is no connection now between the two.

If he makes it so he was never the flash at that point in time causality says he can't have gone hence, he wouldn't have as you are thinking in time frames rather than taking all of time into consideration, and as soon as someone start jumping to other worlds it entangles their causality together and if one makes it impossible for the initial travel to happen it would change both worlds as they are now causally connected.