The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[terry78]

Because he reminds us so much of ourselves.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Another irrelevant nitpick: Powers Booth wasn't one of the WSC members featured.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

None of them except for Jenny Agutter was.

I kind of assumed they were all re-elected, with Dale succeeding Boothe.

Though, the Avengers WSC was British, American, Russian and Chinese. This one seemed to have subbed India for Russia. THAT bugged me a little.

 

[terry78]

They knew what was coming up with Crimea before anyone else.

 

[Dragon]

What didn't I like? The story.

Hydra takes over Shield. Ridiculous.

1. The US certainly did bring Nazi scientists over to assist in the space program and other forms of weaponry. But they didn't trust them enough to allow them to structure the government spy agency. And I find it hard to believe that Howard Stark and Peggy Carter would work with them.

2. Hydra is made up of believers. Extremists, fanatics, paranoiacs, megalomaniacs. No way they could sit under wraps for 50 years without showing their colors. People with their kind of fear and need for control have to express that need. Maybe Hydra could have infiltrated for a mission or two. But not for decades.

3. And why were they under wraps so long? because they were waiting for THIS ONE ultimate weapon? They never came across anything they felt would ensure their victory prior to these helicarriers?

4. Zola's archaic system even being compatible with current computer systems, not to mention even still running in a facility that isn't maintained.

5. Clever strategists like Cap and Natasha not realizing that their incredibly easy entry into the bunker was a trap.

The Winter Soldier:

1. Why didn't Bucky age? They put him in cryo-sleep now and then, but according to Natasha he was extremely active over the decades. So he'd have certainly aged.

2. Why was there only the one? There was no extreme technology involved with TWS that they couldn't afford to produce and army of them. They wouldn't have a cost comparable to Iron Man, and Stark produced damn near 50 of those suits. Also, I would think that Zola would have refined whatever experimental enhancers he used on Bucky back in the 1940's, so that they'd have a better version than Bucky ready to go.

3. With all the mind-wiping, how in hell did he maintain his fighting skills?

4. Cap's "I have to save my friend" BS. His friend died in that fall, whether he was still breathing or not. He was trying to save a killer. It's long been established that no one can be hypnotized into doing anything they wouldn't be morally inclined to.

I was never on board with TWS concept. I always felt if that was their best idea for bringing Bucky back, he was better off remaining dead. The idea of TWS in and of itself is okay if not inspired- a Russian version of Cap. But his being Bucky didn't add anything substantial to the character other than an emotional hit on Cap that had been done to death in the 60's.

The Falcon:
Why was there only one and not a squadron of them?

Sitwell being a traitor.

Agent 13- who gives a crap?

The CIA being presented as the answer to what to do after the end of Shield. Really? After all the preaching the film does about infringement on freedom, the f-ing CIA is the good alternative?

 

[terry78]

Anything you did like?

 

[Windows]

1. The US certainly did bring Nazi scientists over to assist in the space program and other forms of weaponry. But they didn't trust them enough to allow them to structure the government spy agency. And I find it hard to believe that Howard Stark and Peggy Carter would work with them.

I guess that, do to compartmentalisation in the agency, Stark and Carter were never really aware of Zola's involvement with SHIELD.

2. Hydra is made up of believers. Extremists, fanatics, paranoiacs, megalomaniacs. No way they could sit under wraps for 50 years without showing their colors. People with their kind of fear and need for control have to express that need. Maybe Hydra could have infiltrated for a mission or two. But not for decades.

Yeah, I do agree that it's pretty implausible for so many (it must be hundreds at least) Americans to be brainwashed into joining such a radical cult like that, but I guess that it's just like any secret society or underground cult - it can happen.

3. And why were they under wraps so long? because they were waiting for THIS ONE ultimate weapon? They never came across anything they felt would ensure their victory prior to these helicarriers?

I suppose that they figured working behind the shadows was the better way to do things until technology reached the point where they could win in one move.

4. Zola's archaic system even being compatible with current computer systems, not to mention even still running in a facility that isn't maintained.

It probably is maintained and updated periodically.

5. Clever strategists like Cap and Natasha not realizing that their incredibly easy entry into the bunker was a trap.

Yeah, that's a good point, actually. They should have known that HYDRA would know that they would be there, since that's where the flash drive pointed them, and Pierce knew what was on the flash drive. I guess we're just going to have to assume that they were both tired and caught off guard, but yeah.

1. Why didn't Bucky age? They put him in cryo-sleep now and then, but according to Natasha he was extremely active over the decades. So he'd have certainly aged.

I think they mentioned his suspected kill count; I forgot what it was, but it was definitely less than a hundred. Let's say that he has been on about a hundred missions, with each mission taking on average a week. That's about two years. So that makes sense that he's still "young".

2. Why was there only the one? There was no extreme technology involved with TWS that they couldn't afford to produce and army of them. They wouldn't have a cost comparable to Iron Man, and Stark produced damn near 50 of those suits. Also, I would think that Zola would have refined whatever experimental enhancers he used on Bucky back in the 1940's, so that they'd have a better version than Bucky ready to go.

Another good point. Since his back story hasn't really been elaborated on, we can only assume that there was some devastating setback similar to what happened to Dr Erskine's project. (In the movie, it's not clear who set Bucky up as the Winter Soldier - was it the Russians, or HYDRA, or both?)

3. With all the mind-wiping, how in hell did he maintain his fighting skills?

I don't know anything about fighting, really, but I think that a lot of it is muscle memory. He didn't lose his other motor skills such as being able to speak, so he wouldn't lose his fighting skills, either.

4. Cap's "I have to save my friend" BS. His friend died in that fall, whether he was still breathing or not. He was trying to save a killer. It's long been established that no one can be hypnotized into doing anything they wouldn't be morally inclined to.

Let's look at the worst case scenario, that Bucky was willfully doing all the bad things that he was doing without any outside influence and that he is pretty much evil. Even then, Steve would still try to save him, however irrational that action would be.

But what actually happened probably goes beyond hypnosis. Years of mental conditioning, torture, and sci-fi magical experiments have changed him. Can he be redeemed? I would think so, just like Hawkeye could.

I was never on board with TWS concept. I always felt if that was their best idea for bringing Bucky back, he was better off remaining dead. The idea of TWS in and of itself is okay if not inspired- a Russian version of Cap. But his being Bucky didn't add anything substantial to the character other than an emotional hit on Cap that had been done to death in the 60's.

In terms of action, the Winter Soldier was awesome in projecting that "Terminator" feeling of relentlessness, especially during the tragic SHIELD attempt at supporting Steve at the end. But in terms of the drama, there really wasn't that much. I kind of wish that they did more with it, but I can't really think of what that could be, so maybe you're right on that. The Bucky reveal was definitely underwhelming compared to a lot of other plot twists.

The Falcon:
Why was there only one and not a squadron of them?

There were probably more of them, but Sam Wilson was likely the only one they could trust, and he explained that there was only one jet pack left.

Sitwell being a traitor.

Kind of random, I guess, but it didn't make the movie better or worse for me. I do wish that they had built up his character in the actual movies themselves so that this would have been a more dramatic reveal. Also, his one-liner on the ship was pretty stupid.

Agent 13- who gives a crap?

This doesn't seem to be a valid critique. I thought she had a good (albeit small) role.

The CIA being presented as the answer to what to do after the end of Shield. Really? After all the preaching the film does about infringement on freedom, the f-ing CIA is the good alternative?

What actually annoyed me was Natasha's quote at the end. To paraphrase, it's something like "you're not going to arrest us because even though we do bad things, we do it to save the world". Which is exactly the opposite of Steve's stance and the entire theme of the movie, that we shouldn't have to resort to such bad things in order to save the world and save liberty and all that good stuff. She was pretty much restating what Pierce had been saying the entire movie.

 

[Mysteryman]

Steves basic point was not to trade freedom for fear .
natashas basic point was people like her and Steve were best qualified to defend a vulnerable world .

 

[BullMcGiveny]

3. With all the mind-wiping, how in hell did he maintain his fighting skills?

Muscle memory.

4. Cap's "I have to save my friend" BS. His friend died in that fall, whether he was still breathing or not. He was trying to save a killer. It's long been established that no one can be hypnotized into doing anything they wouldn't be morally inclined to.

Its not hypnosis. Its brainwashing.

Why was there only one and not a squadron of them?

The impression I got is that there was such a squadron, but they had such a high casualty rate that they were decommissioned.

The CIA being presented as the answer to what to do after the end of Shield. Really? After all the preaching the film does about infringement on freedom, the f-ing CIA is the good alternative?

They don't, really. Sharon simply goes to work for them.

However the CIA have done some HYDRA-worthy **** in real life, so I see your point.

 

[Dragon]

Anything you did like?

Action was pretty cool, till you got to the last guy standing there firing after Cap has just wiped out every other guy. He doesn't try to change his position or run, he just continues to do what hasn't worked for anyone else.

The movie wasn't horrible to me. But after all the praise it was getting for how "smart" it is, I was really expecting to not be crinkling my brow as much as I did.

 

[Pink Ranger]

I think this movie was great, even better than Iron Man 1. But the major flaw for me, and I even noticed it when watching the movie for the first time, is that Sam Wilson's powers really come out of nowhere. Dangerously close to deus ex machina territory.

There was virtually no reasonable attempt to set it up at all. It's just like, "Oh yeah, I just happened to be able to fly a high-tech flying suit that nobody in Shield or the US army has ever seen before."

That stated, Sam Wilson is an awesome new MCU character, and the movie overall is excellent, so I am willing to swallow the one burnt french fry in the bunch.

 

[Dragon]

I guess that, do to compartmentalisation in the agency, Stark and Carter were never really aware of Zola's involvement with SHIELD.



Yeah, I do agree that it's pretty implausible for so many (it must be hundreds at least) Americans to be brainwashed into joining such a radical cult like that, but I guess that it's just like any secret society or underground cult - it can happen.



I suppose that they figured working behind the shadows was the better way to do things until technology reached the point where they could win in one move.



It probably is maintained and updated periodically.



Yeah, that's a good point, actually. They should have known that HYDRA would know that they would be there, since that's where the flash drive pointed them, and Pierce knew what was on the flash drive. I guess we're just going to have to assume that they were both tired and caught off guard, but yeah.



I think they mentioned his suspected kill count; I forgot what it was, but it was definitely less than a hundred. Let's say that he has been on about a hundred missions, with each mission taking on average a week. That's about two years. So that makes sense that he's still "young".



Another good point. Since his back story hasn't really been elaborated on, we can only assume that there was some devastating setback similar to what happened to Dr Erskine's project. (In the movie, it's not clear who set Bucky up as the Winter Soldier - was it the Russians, or HYDRA, or both?)



I don't know anything about fighting, really, but I think that a lot of it is muscle memory. He didn't lose his other motor skills such as being able to speak, so he wouldn't lose his fighting skills, either.



Let's look at the worst case scenario, that Bucky was willfully doing all the bad things that he was doing without any outside influence and that he is pretty much evil. Even then, Steve would still try to save him, however irrational that action would be.

But what actually happened probably goes beyond hypnosis. Years of mental conditioning, torture, and sci-fi magical experiments have changed him. Can he be redeemed? I would think so, just like Hawkeye could.



In terms of action, the Winter Soldier was awesome in projecting that "Terminator" feeling of relentlessness, especially during the tragic SHIELD attempt at supporting Steve at the end. But in terms of the drama, there really wasn't that much. I kind of wish that they did more with it, but I can't really think of what that could be, so maybe you're right on that. The Bucky reveal was definitely underwhelming compared to a lot of other plot twists.



There were probably more of them, but Sam Wilson was likely the only one they could trust, and he explained that there was only one jet pack left.



Kind of random, I guess, but it didn't make the movie better or worse for me. I do wish that they had built up his character in the actual movies themselves so that this would have been a more dramatic reveal. Also, his one-liner on the ship was pretty stupid.



This doesn't seem to be a valid critique. I thought she had a good (albeit small) role.



What actually annoyed me was Natasha's quote at the end. To paraphrase, it's something like "you're not going to arrest us because even though we do bad things, we do it to save the world". Which is exactly the opposite of Steve's stance and the entire theme of the movie, that we shouldn't have to resort to such bad things in order to save the world and save liberty and all that good stuff. She was pretty much restating what Pierce had been saying the entire movie.

Without running over your response point by point, I'll say I certainly considered a number of your responses when I watched the film. But the problem is that they still open a number of other questions.

For example, "Muscle memory" still requires the brain to be functioning properly, and memory wipes, especially if it's happened on a number of occasions would likely cause some malfunction. Look at athletes who suffer brain trauma. They can pretty much never function on the high levels of precision that TWS was always functioning on.

But in the overall, my problem is that they didn't have to leave all of those holes, especially since the source material had better answers.

e.g. The Falcon. The comics explain that the Black Panther developed the wings. As Marvel intends to bring BP into the films why not simply explain that Sam performed some heroic act while in combat. Perhaps saving a Wakandan diplomat. T'Challa awarded him the wings as a gift. They're one of a kind because they're constructed from the rare Wakandan natural resource of vibranium. No other metal could work.

And when I said who gives a crap about Agent 13, I meant that she was what is now too much of a cliche' action movie chick. She's pretty, says cutesy s*** and can shoot and fight at expert levels when called upon. There was no difference between her, Hill and Natasha other than the amount of screen time each had. There was no need for Sharon other than to appease fans. If they wanted to introduce her, make an effort to create a unique figure that Cap could connect with in a way that he couldn't with anyone else. And yes, I know the next response is "The next movie". I'm sorry, but I've been waiting for "the next movie" for a long while now.

The Hydra infiltration need not have happened during Shield's inception. Zola could have been planning it from the perimeter, placing one or two operatives in key positions. Ultimately, Hydra's takeover didn't have to be because they somehow flooded Shield with their agents, but that Zola's computer (Which would have been continually upgraded) took over the system in a Skynet type of scenario. Then Shield's weapon tech is merely taken by actual Hydra agents. Certainly Pierce could be their man on the ground, having had family that traced back to Nazi Germany, and given his position by glad-handing and bribery.

Back to TWS, I always thought a very easy explanation for him being superhuman is to have had Steve give him a blood transfusion back in WWII. Have Bucky "die" as he did in the comics, falling into the sea and going into cryo-sleep via freezing. The serum could have concentrated in his blood over the years in a way that wouldn't have been practical for any other experimentation. Zola and Hydra could have found him while searching for their tech that crashed into the ocean after Cap crashed the plane. They discover his enhancements, but also learn it can't be synthesized. It also ******s his aging. He has amnesia due to his trauma, which never becomes an issue until he sees Cap. All points covered.

The for me is I'm just frustrated with how these films are being thrown together. They're fun, sure. But they could be so much better than they are.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Anything you did like?

Posting about how much you hated something is always fun. Maybe he liked that.

 

[Human Torch]

What didn't I like? The story.



1. Why didn't Bucky age? They put him in cryo-sleep now and then, but according to Natasha he was extremely active over the decades. So he'd have certainly aged.


3. With all the mind-wiping, how in hell did he maintain his fighting skills?

4. Cap's "I have to save my friend" BS. His friend died in that fall, whether he was still breathing or not. He was trying to save a killer. It's long been established that no one can be hypnotized into doing anything they wouldn't be morally inclined to.

1. I think he was only let out for a few days at a time,so he only aged days and not years.

3.I just figured they messed with his mind.Not like he had to be taught to read again and so forth.

4.Well,Bucky was a soldier.He was taught to kill.So it's not a stretch that once they brainwashed him to do a target,he was still able to pull a trigger.

 

[Human Torch]

I really would prefer to see the film again to see if I change my mind,but the few things that come to mind:

The Peggy scene was shoehorned in.

Agent 13/Carter not having as much a presence as I hoped.

Falcon not really getting as good an action scene as I hoped.(I mean,the guy got his wings ripped off pretty quick.I was hoping he'd do more aerial combat,and not just slug it out like everybody else)

But minor gripes.I still thought it was great.

 

[Dragon]

1. I think he was only let out for a few days at a time,so he only aged days and not years.

3.I just figured they messed with his mind.Not like he had to be taught to read again and so forth.

4.Well,Bucky was a soldier.He was taught to kill.So it's not a stretch that once they brainwashed him to do a target,he was still able to pull a trigger.

Like I said, my overall issue is that the plot holes/dangling threads didn't need to be so. There are very easy explanations for all of it. And it seems a bit lazy for them to have skimmed over it when this would've made for a stronger film.

Another thing, since we're talking, was Fury's lack of armament. I found it very hard to believe that the director of Shield had no handgun, his truck didn't have things like grenades. Hell, he didn't even have the weaponry James Bond's car was stocked with 50 years ago. I mean, I'd think Fury would even have a personal repulsor gun. Stark gave one to a little kid after all..

 

[TalismanRing]

These aren't plot holes though. It's just back story that had no need to be explained in this film. It would just be an exposition dump that would take away the drama of the situation & the big reveal and from the development of Steve's search and discovery in the next film. Hydra knows the ins and outs, there's no need for anyone working on or with The Winter Soldier to stop mid scene and explain out loud what they're doing and what they've done before etc. Nor is the film going to end with Steve reading out loud from the file Natasha handed him.

 

[Dragon]

These aren't plot holes though. It's just back story that had no need to be explained in this film.

Yes it did need to be explained. That some folks don't think of or question these things doesn't mean that others aren't questioning them, and losing a connection to the story as the suspension of disbelief is stretched too far. especially when a number of folks are holding the film up as being well-written.

It would just be an exposition dump that would take away the drama of the situation & the big reveal and from the development of Steve's search and discovery in the next film.

The scene with Pierce facing TWS had exposition. It was just bad exposition. If they had better exposition it certainly wouldn't have taken away from the drama. It would have added to it, by making the situation more believable.

Hydra knows the ins and outs, there's no need for anyone working on or with The Winter Soldier to stop mid scene and explain out loud what they're doing

Not for you, because you're not questioning anything they're doing. I was. Others I've spoken to were questioning it as well. A number of things made little to no sense.

 

[Rock Sexton]

A person who questions how the Winter Soldier remembered how to fight needs to give their brain a rest ..... for cryin' out loud. Some of you just make me shake my head sometimes.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Making the situation believable??

 

[Nilso]

I'd hate to hear what he disliked about Amazing Spider Man 2: Rise of Electro or The Avengers for that matter. Most comic books and the movies these characters are portrayed need a little suspension of disbelief.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I'd hate to hear what he disliked about Amazing Spider Man 2: Rise of Electro or The Avengers for that matter. Most comic books and the movies these characters are portrayed need a little suspension of disbelief.

Is that the official name?

I know right.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

Winter Soldier retaining his skills despite his memory impairment is no problem for me. Look at Bourne and the other Treadstone assets, who suffer from all sorts of mental problems as a result of their training and experiences, yet still retained their combat prowess. And Bourne even had amnesia!

 

[Nilso]

Is that the official name?

I know right.

No I think they changed it after the backlash.

 

[JoCucumber]

Did you enjoy the movie? that's the real question... Anybody can find issues with every movie. We nerds love to kick other nerds in the nuts, but in the end did you like the movie?

Name a movie you have heart feels for and i'll pick it apart...