The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[The Endless]

It's okay because Nolan only did it once. MCU has done it twice now and probably a few more times later on in the MCU.

He did it 3 times. One of which, Gordon's, doesn't actually make any sense or mean anything to the story at all.

Fury's made sense to the story and his characterisation. It was natural.

 

[Jasyn]

1. [BLACKOUT]That it's no longer in theaters in my area.[/BLACKOUT]

2. [BLACKOUT]It has not been digitally or DVD released yet.[/BLACKOUT]

3. [BLACKOUT]That I have to wait for 2015 for more Cap and 2016 for CA3.[/BLACKOUT]

Spoiler

 

[StarkTheProdigy]

That I can't watch it on 4th of July!

 

[Ryu_do_Sen]

The russos have talked about havin' the raid: redemption as one of their sources of inspiration but they didn't quite deliver the same in terms of action sequences. Most of the fight scenes looked too staged, too phony, over-edited and short...... For instance, the final fight scene between cap and ws was a fight that needed to be longer and more dramatic......It killed the tension of the movie......Curiously, in the film raid 2, the final fight scene shows how the final battle scene in CAWS should have been done......

 

[Marathon]

I bumping this up in anticipation of dat bleu-ray release.

I don't have many gripes, but I wished there was more actual conflict between Cap and Fury. Dare I say, I would have liked for things to get really ugly between the two of them and for Widow to be put into this really awkward middle ground (well, she kind of was, put there was still some extra mileage that could have been squeezed out of the situation).

Especially when the trailers sort of implied this was going to be the case.

I was also disappointed that the badass "you need to keep both eyes open" line was, in the end, directed at Pierce instead of Cap. I also wished the "your work has been a gift to mankind..." line was directed at Cap, too.

Movie trailers, stop twisting the truth!

 

[Human Torch]

How did Sam get the wings back after they got arrested and put in the back of the van?

 

[Silvermoon]

How did Sam get the wings back after they got arrested and put in the back of the van?

My personal theory (so take it for what it's worth) is either a) that they felt that Cap was secured enough (seriously, look at how Cap is secured in that van. His feet are heavily shackled, his arms are heavily shackled, and he has a big huge metal bar around his torso as well) and the others were secured enough that both the shield and the wing pack were put in the same van as them. Or b) since we know Hill was masquerading as one of Rumlow's men, it was her that made sure that the shield & wing pack were put in the same van. Yes - either way that would mean an extremely stupid move on the part of Rumlow & his goons to not make sure the heroes were separated from their weapons, but who said bad guys were always smart?

 

[Human Torch]

Works for me!t:

 

[herolee10]

Two things that I didn't get was:

1. The MCU has gone out of its way to establish that Fury has some pretty big trust issues with people. So considering that he was starting to suspect/learned that SHIELD was compromised, I wonder why he trusted Maria Hill so much to not only stage his death but to keep him alive during that whole period. I mean what makes Hill, as far as the MCU has shown, that much different from everyone around Fury that he feels like he can trust her that much?

2. Black Widow told Steve in the Hospital that she had tried to pursue the Winter Soldier years ago, during their first encounter, but came up to a dead end. And yet at the end of the film, she said that she contacted a few individuals that she knew who owed her favors and was able to get some pretty sufficient data about the Winter Soldier in the folder that she gave Steve. That didn't make sense to me. I mean if she could have always called in for that folder, then why didn't she know that Bucky was in fact the Winter Soldier already, etc.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Two things that I didn't get was:

1. The MCU has gone out of its way to establish that Fury has some pretty big trust issues with people. So considering that he was starting to suspect/learned that SHIELD was compromised, I wonder why he trusted Maria Hill so much to not only stage his death but to keep him alive during that whole period. I mean what makes Hill, as far as the MCU has shown, that much different from everyone around Fury that he feels like he can trust her that much?

Fury first contacted Hill right when he started suspecting something was wrong, but didn't realize how widespread. She was the one who faked his death, she had him completely at her mercy, and she saved him. Proves that he can trust her.

2. Black Widow told Steve in the Hospital that she had tried to pursue the Winter Soldier years ago, during their first encounter, but came up to a dead end. And yet at the end of the film, she said that she contacted a few individuals that she knew who owed her favors and was able to get some pretty sufficient data about the Winter Soldier in the folder that she gave Steve. That didn't make sense to me. I mean if she could have always called in for that folder, then why didn't she know that Bucky was in fact the Winter Soldier already, etc.

Good point. It might be that, while she worked for SHIELD, they were blocking her efforts.

 

[DJThrawn]

Just watched it for the first time today. My biggest gripe is that I never felt any real tension. I never worried my favorite character or a character I cared about might die and I never had a feeling of suspense like I didn't know what was going to happen. I felt like I had already seen the movie and that is without the spoilers. It was too formulaic. I feel in many ways the fact Marvel is with Disney is a double edged sword. I believe the MCU would not be possible without Disney but I also feel that Marvel is in many respects held back by having to appeal to what Disney feels is most profitable and by sticking to Disney's moral code. I am hoping this changes with Age of Ultron. However, I did like many of the action sequences and actually liked Black Widow's character arc. I also liked the costume design as well.

 

[Silvermoon]

2. Black Widow told Steve in the Hospital that she had tried to pursue the Winter Soldier years ago, during their first encounter, but came up to a dead end. And yet at the end of the film, she said that she contacted a few individuals that she knew who owed her favors and was able to get some pretty sufficient data about the Winter Soldier in the folder that she gave Steve. That didn't make sense to me. I mean if she could have always called in for that folder, then why didn't she know that Bucky was in fact the Winter Soldier already, etc.

Either, like Bull said, HYDRA within SHIELD could've been blocking her search/turning them into dead ends. Or another possibility I could see is that it took her knowing that he was Bucky Barnes to open up some new avenues/threads to search (or it could be a combination of both)

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Of late, I've been bothered by contemplating whether or not the state of this being a Cap movie being justified.

Like, it could have conceivably been a SHIELD movie or a Black Widow movie with no involvement from Cap. Changing the script to remove Cap and Cap characters might be easier than removing non-Cap characters.

 

[TalismanRing]

The entire movie is crafted around and centered on Cap. Without him it would collapse not just structurally in terms of plot but in terms of character purposes and relationships. And on an emotional level he's the heart and soul of the movie.

The entire idea to bring down SHIELD in order to root out HYDRA comes directly from Steve. This is not anything Fury, Hill or Natasha would even contemplate let alone do without Steve. His sense of morality and doing what's right, not only what's expedient or the lesser of two evils is what drives this arc. Also, without him it's doubtful that any let alone all the non HYDRA SHIELD agents would instantly and without proof believe any of them over Pierce who outranks them all.

Black Widow's actions in terms of releasing the information, and exposing herself and the lies instead of just making up more lies to patch things over are a direct result from her relationship with Steve over the course of the movie. Without Steve she'd have more likely than not fallen in line with Fury even if she knows he doesn't really trust her because she'd still see non trust as the only logical option.

What makes the Winter Soldier more than a knock off terminator is his relationship to Steve. The emotional arc of the last third of the film comes from Steve and what he's lost and what he's willing to personally sacrifice to get Bucky back. Which in turns makes cracks in the WS's shell and makes him partially human and Bucky again.

I guess they could have used the comic back story of Natasha to do this in some part but then they'd have to also bring WS down to his comic level non powers which would make him less threatening to everyone. They'd lose the aspect of two men out of their time who are brothers made enemies. And since all that BW/WS previous relationship would have happened off screen and not say in Cap 1 it would have far less power. It would also be a retread of BW and controlled Hawkeye from The Avengers.

Then there's The Falcon who works instantly and believably as not only a friend to Steve but someone who would follow him into battle. I don't see this working at all as a Falcon/BW or Falcon/Fury relationship. Neither would trust him almost instantly as Steve does and neither would be the type of person that Sam would follow almost without question.

Lastly, just in terms of action all the big set pieces would have been smaller. BW though deadly can't fight on the sheer scale that Cap does which is apparent immediately in the ship scene and how each deal with their opponents. There also wouldn't be set pieces like the elevator fight or the taking down of the quinjet scene.

 

[Andrew Lucas]

Lack of emotional engagement. Didn't bothered me that much but that's one of the things that I felt missing.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

@TalismanRing

I understand, but I'm talking about when strip the plot down to the bare bones.

Falcon and WS's relationship with Steve need Steve, that is true, but they feel a bit like some side action of the main plot. Winter Soldier is basically a henchman, and Sam is a guy with no vested interest in SHIELD who joins the fight because of Steve. He doesn't have the kind of role that, say, Rhodey had in Iron Man movies.

The prime characters aside from Steve are Pierce, Fury and Natasha. None of whom are traditionally associated with Cap. In fact, Pierce, despite being the big bad is more of an adversary for Fury than for Steve.

I enjoyed Sam and Bucky's roles, but they felt ancillary, basically a hook for Cap3.

Of course, the fact that SHIELD has been infiltrated by HYDRA does necessitate Steve's involvement. Which is why it just bugs me a little, as opposed to actually ruin my enjoyment.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Just watched it for the first time today. My biggest gripe is that I never felt any real tension. I never worried my favorite character or a character I cared about might die and I never had a feeling of suspense like I didn't know what was going to happen. I felt like I had already seen the movie and that is without the spoilers. It was too formulaic. I feel in many ways the fact Marvel is with Disney is a double edged sword. I believe the MCU would not be possible without Disney but I also feel that Marvel is in many respects held back by having to appeal to what Disney feels is most profitable and by sticking to Disney's moral code. I am hoping this changes with Age of Ultron. However, I did like many of the action sequences and actually liked Black Widow's character arc. I also liked the costume design as well.

Lack of emotional engagement. Didn't bothered that much but would that's one of the things that I felt missing.

These are problems with most, if not all of the MCU movies IMO, its why they havent made a CBM as good as TDK, X2, Spiderman 2 or DOFP. They always seems to have these 2 things missing. BUT TWS and GOTG especially were steps in the right direction in these areas.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

they havent made a CBM as good as TDK, X2, Spiderman 2 or DOFP

Cap 2 > each of those.

 

[titansupes]

^ Of that list, it's better than Spidey 2. Not the others, though.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^This is all just IMO of course, but no MCU movie is as good as any of those I listed. I thought Avengers was as good as them on my 1st viewings, but now every time I watch it I enjoy it less and less, GOTG is my number 1 MCU movie at the moment.

 

[TalismanRing]

Cap 2 > each of those.

Agreed, and I don't think either X-Men film is even close to the rest of that group or the top tier of CBM movies, though those two are the best of the X bunch. As a series I find it veers from good with moments of greatness to dull to trainwreck.

 

[First Avenger]

I'd watch TWS or Avengers over SM2 any day of the week. X2 and DOFP are as good IMO.

 

[eddy]

I love this film but this is a gripe my niece pointed out to me and I have no explanation for it. When the STRIKE team surround Cap, Falcon, and Widow...why doesn't Falcon just fly away and pick up Cap and Widow?

I told my niece that Falcon wasn't strong enough to pick up both of them

 

[Silvermoon]

I love this film but this is a gripe my niece pointed out to me and I have no explanation for it. When the STRIKE team surround Cap, Falcon, and Widow...why doesn't Falcon just fly away and pick up Cap and Widow?

I told my niece that Falcon wasn't strong enough to pick up both of them

I think that's a perfectly reasonable explination. Later in the movie, Falcon struggles a bit with Cap's weight alone. Add a wounded Widow into the mix, plus guys right next to you that will immediately start firing the minute you make a move, and you end up with one "holey" trio (okay, sorry, that was too corny )

 

[MahvelBaby!]

All of my dislikes with this movie are nitpicks really, though they could of eased us in a bit more with Falcons wings, little things like that.