The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[Whiskey Tango]

And honestly, if your only response to my points are "those things didn't bother me", why are you even responding at all?

I wasn't responding to you at all, champ. I was talking to Webfoot Hero. If I'm talking to you, you'll know because I quoted you.

I do think people are confusing/conflating plot holes with things that simply remain unexplained. Not the same thing at all.

Yup.

 

[Dragon]

I wasn't responding to you at all, champ. I was talking to Webfoot Hero. If I'm talking to you, you'll know because I quoted you.

You were responding to his response to me and commenting on my post. Not the first time either. So if you want to play passive aggressive games instead of being direct, that's on you.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

 

[PacificBoy]

As for being tedious, every point I've mentioned could be handled in a way that would be entertaining and effective, and make the stories of the characters that much more real and compelling. I'm not talking about adding these points to all of those already there. I'm saying substitute them for less than satisfying ones. For example- simply stating that when Bucky was discovered by Hydra he had no memory due to the trauma of being in the cryo-state for years, removes any need for discussion of mind wipes.

.

I'm curious to find out why you think there's a need for discussion of mind wipes in the first place. How would that impact the story?

 

[Skrilla31]

It's not about American domination. And the fact that the government wasn't entirely in lock step with HYDRA is the basis of my whole point. As I've said several times, HYDRA weakens the message of the film, that being a criticism of the NSA and the drone program and whatnot, because it makes the root cause of the film's equivalent of those things be an unambiguously evil outside force that came in and secretly corrupted the otherwise good and noble SHIELD, and not flaws inherent within the institution and the culture it exists in.

In real life, the United States government and it's NATO allies are not spying on their own citizens and making pre-emptive drone strikes against terrorist threats in other countries because they are being secretly influenced by a shadowy cabal of Nazis. It's more complicated than that. Making that be the root cause of the problem in a film criticizing that behavior weakens the criticism slightly.

It might not be a shadowy cabal of nazis, but for all you know it could be a shadowy cabal of something much worse.

I don't know about everyone else but when I saw the movie I associated Hydra with the Illuminati.

 

[Supernova]

Ive always had an issue in movies with mind wipes and how stupid it sounds if it just envolves a normal human. Tws was not a robot so how do you continuosly wipe a brain? I would have accepted it better if he had amnesia.

 

[Slushy]

What is Bucky's arm made out of? Vibranium? Adamantium? I didn't like how strong they made it out to be. If anything, punching Cap's shield should've fu**ed up his limb right away!

 

[Dragon]

I'm curious to find out why you think there's a need for discussion of mind wipes in the first place. How would that impact the story?

Mind wipes stretch plausibility in an already stretched out story.

I've mentioned this in my other posts. When you wipe his mind- How does he maintain selective memory? How do you wipe any knowledge he has of Cap, but maintain all of his combat skills, knowing that he has to serve Pierce and other Hydra operatives? And considering that TWS ultimately did remember Cap, the mind wipe was iffy anyway.

I'm saying that they shouldn't have mentioned any mind-wiping to begin with. It was plausible enough to explain that Bucky would've had no memory based on the trauma he'd suffered. And they had no way of knowing when they revived and sent him on his missions decades ago that he would ever encounter Cap.

 

[ctsketch]

Mind wipes stretch plausibility in an already stretched out story.

I've mentioned this in my other posts. When you wipe his mind- How does he maintain selective memory? How do you wipe any knowledge he has of Cap, but maintain all of his combat skills, knowing that he has to serve Pierce and other Hydra operatives? And considering that TWS ultimately did remember Cap, the mind wipe was iffy anyway.

I'm saying that they shouldn't have mentioned any mind-wiping to begin with. It was plausible enough to explain that Bucky would've had no memory based on the trauma he'd suffered. And they had no way of knowing when they revived and sent him on his missions decades ago that he would ever encounter Cap.

Memories of people and names are separate from motor functions, the brain is compartmentalized

 

[ctsketch]

Look up different types of Amnesia and Dementia

 

[Saturius]

As a few other people said, I did think the Arim Zola being responsible for the ressurection of Hydra within Shield a bit perplexing. The first film really just didn't make it appear he was that hardcore about Hydra philosophy and so it just didn't really jive for me.

Also his conciousness being in a computer was just really weird to me. It's a comic book movie and all, but I dunno, it just really stuck out as odd to me. I just couldn't buy it for some reason. I think that also goes along with my perception of him as just not being such a Hydra mastermind. So he was so dedicated to the Hydra cause he even wanted to have his influence felt after death? I could see Red Skull doing all the aforementioned things becasue he just came across that way in film 1, but Zola to me just did not. I dunno if I should cite this as a problem for the 1st or second film though. I think if the directors of the first film knew the direction they were taking Zola in the sequel, they might have written and filmed things differently. As it stands I feel like we have a Zola whose actions don't really line up between the two films.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

I think the diffenerences in portrayal makes Zola a more complex and layered character

 

[Dragon]

Memories of people and names are separate from motor functions, the brain is compartmentalized

But then, he is required to remember people and names after memory wipe. He still retains that he's under the supervision of Pierce and other members of Hydra. He's expected to remember who his targets are and who his allies are. He's expected to do more than merely throw a punch or kick or pull a trigger. He has to make decisions. And ultimately, he does remember Cap. So the memory wipe is pretty much pointless.

Regardless, there is a simpler and more satisfying (to me anyway) explanation that didn't need to involve memory wipes.

Anyway, this is just one of a number of story issues, that I'm pointing to.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

But then, he is required to remember people and names after memory wipe. He still retains that he's under the supervision of Pierce and other members of Hydra. He's expected to remember who his targets are and who his allies are. He's expected to do more than merely throw a punch or kick or pull a trigger. He has to make decisions. And ultimately, he does remember Cap. So the memory wipe is pretty much pointless.

Regardless, there is a simpler and more satisfying (to me anyway) explanation that didn't need to involve memory wipes.

Anyway, this is just one of a number of story issues, that I'm pointing to.

Considering we don't know exactly what went on in the mind-wiping and training sessions and what other mental conditioning things were done to him prior to the events of TWS, it may be pretty plausible that he could retain his fighting skills yet not remember every detail of all his past missions. I don't really see how having memory wipes and then reprogramming is that big of an issue and how it could be explained without being any more convoluted.

 

[Dragon]

Considering we don't know exactly what went on in the mind-wiping and training sessions and what other mental conditioning things were done to him prior to the events of TWS, it may be pretty plausible that he could retain his fighting skills yet not remember every detail of all his past missions.

And again- this is my point. none of it is laid out in any kind of intelligible way. And there are several examples throughout the narrative of this type of slip up.

I don't really see how having memory wipes and then reprogramming is that big of an issue and how it could be explained without being any more convoluted.

There's a very simple way, although it involved a better handling of the story in Cap 1. I explained this in a previous post.

Three important things needed to happen:
1. At some point in Cap 1, Cap gives a wounded Bucky a blood transfusion.
2. Bucky is with Cap at the climax of Cap 1, fighting to stop the drone plane attack.
3. Like in the comics, Bucky falls into the ocean. He goes into cryo-freeze, similar to Cap, but a great distance from where Cap is eventually found.

Bucky, while spending years in suspended animation does not age- but the concentration of the super soldier serum builds in his system during cryo-sleep. Hydra, while trying to recover their equipment (And/or the Tesseract) find Bucky.

They thaw him, and find that he's developed superhuman strength, endurance et al similar to Cap. But it can't be practically synthesized, because Bucky only received transfused blood, instead of the full treatment that Cap received. Also, it isn't useful to try and send an army into years of cryo-sleep only to find the process didn't work.

What does this accomplish?

1. Bucky has no memory, without there being a need for memory wipes.
2. Bucky is a one-off super soldier. Thus a reasonable explanation for why there isn't an army of Winter Soldiers, which the film doesn't give.
3. The process ******s aging like Cap.

No convolution at all. A simple and dramatic origin for TWS.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I'm coming at it from the point of view that what's happened in the MCU isn't going to be rewritten and how he's portrayed in TWS is the logical progression from TFA while you're basically trying to rewrite part of TFA to fit your preference for him in TWS. Seems your problem is more with how he was handled in TFA than in TWS, which is a whole other discussion.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

What is Bucky's arm made out of? Vibranium? Adamantium? I didn't like how strong they made it out to be. If anything, punching Cap's shield should've fu**ed up his limb right away!

Well that would have been a very boring fight.

 

[I am Batman]

Off the top of my head Black Widow's hair. It just did not look as good as in The Avengers or Iron Man 2.

 

[Slushy]

Well that would have been a very boring fight.

Well yeah, but I'm looking at it from a logical standpoint.

The same reason why a bunch of fans hated Spider-Man 2 because Doctor Octopus was able to withstand Spider-Man's punches.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

The same reason why a bunch of fans hated Spider-Man 2 because Doctor Octopus was able to withstand Spider-Man's punches.

Those people ought to reed moar comics. Spidey pulls his punches and thus it happens all the time.

 

[The Guard]

And again- this is my point. none of it is laid out in any kind of intelligible way. And there are several examples throughout the narrative of this type of slip up.

I think this is the main issue I have with Winter Soldier as a character.

Everything about him that makes him somewhat unique is handled in a very vague and somewhat clichéd manner. It's like they're relying on your understanding of brainwashing in other fiction to deliver the impact.

 

[Dragon]

I'm coming at it from the point of view that what's happened in the MCU isn't going to be rewritten and how he's portrayed in TWS is the logical progression from TFA while you're basically trying to rewrite part of TFA to fit your preference for him in TWS. Seems your problem is more with how he was handled in TFA than in TWS, which is a whole other discussion.

I know nothing in these films is going to be rewritten. Why would they? They're making lots of money. But that isn't the point of this thread. It's discussing what you didn't like about the film.

My problem is equally spread across Cap 1 & 2. I think much of Cap 1 could've been handled better. But this definitely extends to Cap 2, since as I've said, my issue isn't just about the memory wipes.

There is no logical progression between 1 & 2, because again, there's no real explanation of what happened. There's not a single clue in Cap 1 about why Bucky would've survived. No suggestion that he'd been experimented on, no sign that he's enhanced in anyway. He just shows up in 2 and we're given a throwaway reason for why Bucky survived the fall, and became Winter Soldier.

Logical progression would be- that if Zola experimented on Bucky and he was enhanced- then Zola's process works- and he could create an army of Winter Soldiers. Hydra wouldn't have to wait 60 years to develop the Super Helicarriers (Which BTW- needed Stark tech that they couldn't have foreseen existing). They could attack with an army of Winter soldiers and take over much sooner.

 

[BlackFox]

Finally got round to seeing this in 2D which was much better than 3D for the first viewing.

My only real gripe is that the WS is going to end up a bit of a "Darth Maul" character. Looks awesome and does some awesome things in action but does not have enough to say to make him a full rounded character, a waste of great potential, of course this might be rectified in Cap3 but here in 2 its the biggest issue I have in an otherwise awesome Marvel film.

 

[speno94]

To me, I think the perfect moment to mention Hawkeye in Cap 2 like where he is and how Natasha feels etc would have been the scene in Sam Wilson's house where Steve and Natasha hide out after everyone is trying to kill them and after the Zola HYDRA twist.

In that scene, you see Natasha having wet hair, clearly just came out of the shower and she maybe could have looked at her Hawkeye arrow necklace or putting it on after her shower and you see on her face how she feels and Steve sees her looking at her necklace etc and says "I'm sure Barton will be fine" or something like that, then Natasha says where he is, how she feels etc and then the scene continues how it does in the film with Sam talking about his wings.

What do you think? Either this or the bunker scene with Maria Hill and Nick Fury where we find out he didn't die would have been the best place to mention Hawkeye.

 

[Steamteck]

The only thing that bugged me was everyone inspired by Caps speech who tried to help was gunned down and accomplished nothing to help. However that really bugged me.

OK, that Cap's shield's abilities to absorb/redirect impact seem to change dramatically from movie to movie bugged me a little also. I actually preferred this take over Avengers but consistency would be nice. The again, maybe the grenade launcher really was that much more powerful than Mjolnir or Loki's staff.