The Winter Soldier What you didn't like about Captain America: TWS - Flaws/Critiques

[Dragon]

Or Fury just doesn't always wear body armor. Any of these points you're bringing up is not being lazy; it's more nitpicking just to do it.

And you don't think that after a nearly success assassination attempt, Fury's first thought would be "I need to take measures to protect myself, for the country, if not just me?" No, he leaves himself in the open, unprotected in a place where HE SAYS ears are everywhere.

No armour apart from Stark's will stop 50. Cal rounds from a high powered rifle.

And Stark didn't invent armor. He invented the Iron Man weapon, with it's advanced flight, weapons and powering system. Fury could have gotten hold of a protective suit, minus the fringes.

Yes prove that Shield has body armor that could stop armor piercing bullets. Because you know that Hydra would be aware of any such armor and issue WS with the appropriate ammo to penetrate it. Otherwise you have no case. His vehicle was very well armored and it was good protection better than any vest they have been shown to have.

You are assuming that Shield has some super armor that fits under his coat but there is no evidence of that. Even in fiction you have to follow some logic. Tony Stark having super body armor does not equal Shield having the same.

I have proven it, in that it exists at all in the MCU. If it exists, then Fury could get access to it, just as you assume that Hydra can magically develop a weapon to pierce any armor that exists.

And who says he needs the armor to fit under his coat? We're talking about saving his life, not his rep as a fashionable spy.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well, again, the very fact that SHIELD could have set Fury up as it did was pretty silly. Hydra having so total a grip on SHIELD was pretty much like writing the Sky is falling.

But I'm saying Fury himself would have had access to protective measures, even outside of SHIELD's reach. As we saw, they couldn't shut his truck down, right? Fury would be planning for situations like nuclear war, electro-magnetic pulse, etc. So a direct hit like they tried would be way down on the list of likely success. Even Fury going to Cap's apartment was pretty dumb, really.

Fury isn't going to live with body armor on 24/7. In a situation you know is dangerous, yes. I don't think he counted on the attempt on his life to happen then, and you also have to remember the villains had access to SHIELD weaponry as well that would have been built to counter even Stark's level of body armor (assuming SHIELD has that type of gear).

But, once the move was made on him, the goal was stay in the shadows. Once the plan to kill him went into effect, going back to SHIELD or his home for supplies would have been stupid. No doubt, Hydra would have been looking for him. He made the risk to go back to Cap's apartment in order to get Cap on the case because he was definitely more fit to take them on than he was at that time. Being the super soldier and all. Plus, he knew Cap was trustworthy.

As for the Hydra infiltration, I don't think it was that far fetched. They basically used SHIELD's agenda of protection against them. We have several government organizations that do stuff like that today. Hence why things like the Patriot Act get wide spread support in times of fear with little argument and why using fear to get votes in elections works: we want to be safe. So, Hydra allowing SHIELD to offer that security, but convincing them to keep going further with it until the time was right to make their own power play I felt worked.

 

[regnak]

I have proven it, in that it exists at all in the MCU. If it exists, then Fury could get access to it, just as you assume that Hydra can magically develop a weapon to pierce any armor that exists.

And who says he needs the armor to fit under his coat? We're talking about saving his life, not his rep as a fashionable spy.

No you have proven nothing. Stark having it DOES NOT EQUAL Fury having access, fail try again or better yet give it up.

 

[Dragon]

Fury isn't going to live with body armor on 24/7. In a situation you know is dangerous, yes. I don't think he counted on the attempt on his life to happen then, and you also have to remember the villains had access to SHIELD weaponry as well that would have been built to counter even Stark's level of body armor (assuming SHIELD has that type of gear).

I'm not talking about 24/7, just in the time of imminent danger, as in the time between the street attack and when he's "killed". And it isn't like Hydra was prepared for every situation either, otherwise their attack on the street would have been successful. Fury had a hiding place as we saw, and Hydra knew nothing about it. Hydra also didn't know about Banner's metabolism slowing drug. So if Fury could maintain those secrets from them, he could have- should have had others as well.

But, once the move was made on him, the goal was stay in the shadows. Once the plan to kill him went into effect, going back to SHIELD or his home for supplies would have been stupid. No doubt, Hydra would have been looking for him. He made the risk to go back to Cap's apartment in order to get Cap on the case because he was definitely more fit to take them on than he was at that time. Being the super soldier and all. Plus, he knew Cap was trustworthy.

How would he know that Cap was trustworthy, when Pierce, a guy he'd known much longer wasn't? And I never said anything about going to Shield. I said he'd have had other protective measures outside of Shield, which as it turned out, he did anyway. I'm saying he should have had better, more common sense ones in place, based on what we know is available in the MCU.

As for the Hydra infiltration, I don't think it was that far fetched. They basically used SHIELD's agenda of protection against them. We have several government organizations that do stuff like that today. Hence why things like the Patriot Act get wide spread support in times of fear with little argument and why using fear to get votes in elections works: we want to be safe. So, Hydra allowing SHIELD to offer that security, but convincing them to keep going further with it until the time was right to make their own power play I felt worked.

As I've already said, Hydra is not like other espionage groups. They're extremists, paranoiacs and maniacs. No way they could've hid their agenda so long. Look at this clown Bundy- as soon as cameras were put in front of him his racism comes spewing out. And as hot as Hydra was to commit genocide, they weren't going to be holding back while they waited for a super weapon they never could have anticipated, since part of it was based on Stark tech they couldn't know would exist.

The US would not have allowed someone like Zola in on Shield's infrastructure. Just as they didn't trust Oppenheimer as he developed the atomic bomb. And it's not believable that the likes of Howard Stark and Peggy Carter would have worked with him.

 

[Dragon]

No you have proven nothing. Stark having it DOES NOT EQUAL Fury having access, fail try again or better yet give it up.

Stark having it proves it can be done. Just as the US developing nukes led to other countries developing them as well. Stark didn't create a new form of metal, he created a mechanized suit and new power source, none of which were necessary to make a protective armor for Fury.

 

[regnak]

Stark having it proves it can be done. Just as the US developing nukes led to other countries developing them as well. Stark didn't create a new form of metal, he created a mechanized suit and new power source, none of which were necessary to make a protective armor for Fury.

Nukes were not developed in other countries easily or overnight. Also there was espionage involved in the USSR's nuclear program.(they were the 2nd to get the bomb) Once again Stark having done it does not prove anything in regards to Shield.

And whatever Stark is using is far more durable(at least pre IM3) than any real world armor so it must be a new alloy or reinforced by repulsor tech in some way.

 

[Mikelus]

Stark having it proves it can be done. Just as the US developing nukes led to other countries developing them as well. Stark didn't create a new form of metal, he created a mechanized suit and new power source, none of which were necessary to make a protective armor for Fury.

Armor or not, all Hydra needed was to shot Fury in the head, problem solved. That such a powerful organization was so conveniently incompetent in eliminating a prime target is just bad writing. Same with the way Hydra handled Cap, the elevator scene was just stupid, they could've injected him with a drug to put him to sleep, much more efficient than their moronic actions just to have another mindless action scene. If superhero movies want to move to the next level and be taken seriously, they have to be more than just dumb mindless fun.

 

[kedrell]

^By turning their backs on what they are. No thanks. The elevator scene was awesome.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Armor or not, all Hydra needed was to shot Fury in the head, problem solved. That such a powerful organization was so conveniently incompetent in eliminating a prime target is just bad writing. Same with the way Hydra handled Cap, the elevator scene was just stupid, they could've injected him with a drug to put him to sleep, much more efficient than their moronic actions just to have another mindless action scene. If superhero movies want to move to the next level and be taken seriously, they have to be more than just dumb mindless fun.

1. Who says they need to be taken seriously? They have ridiculous plots. Every single CBM has had a ridiculous plot. That's just how they are.
2. They tried to tase him which is no stupider than using a drug to put him to sleep. He would have caught them trying anyway seeing as he was suspicious as soon as they all got into the elevator. Not to mention they'd have to try to get his face since he was fully covered elsewhere. AND he's a super soldier, who knows if a sleeping drug would even work on him?
3. As far as this being "dumb mindless fun", that's your opinion and it's hardly consensus.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I would strongly consider not feeding the troll. I don't agree with Dragon's quibbles but at least he bothered to put some thought into them. This other guy is just spewing the same old "because realism" garbage without anything to actually back it up.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I would strongly consider not feeding the troll. I don't agree with Dragon's quibbles but at least he bothered to put some thought into them. This other guy is just spewing the same old "because realism" garbage without anything to actually back it up.

He's gotten real annoying with his couple of posts in here.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

He's gotten real annoying with his couple of posts in here.

Looking at his post history he seems to be primarily a DC fan who only visits Marvel threads to crap in them. Unsurprising.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Looking at his post history he seems to be primarily a DC fan who only visits Marvel threads to crap in them. Unsurprising.

I've noticed that with several people who came in here to only talk crap. I blocked most of them and unsurprisingly, many were banned shortly thereafter. The arguments people are using against this movie are really just complete BS now.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Armor or not, all Hydra needed was to shot Fury in the head, problem solved. That such a powerful organization was so conveniently incompetent in eliminating a prime target is just bad writing. Same with the way Hydra handled Cap, the elevator scene was just stupid, they could've injected him with a drug to put him to sleep, much more efficient than their moronic actions just to have another mindless action scene. If superhero movies want to move to the next level and be taken seriously, they have to be more than just dumb mindless fun.

And all Bane had to do was snap Batman's neck after he broke him. That argument is stupid.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

And all Bane had to do was snap Batman's neck after he broke him. That argument is stupid.

But it's Batman so your rebuttal is invalid.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

And all Bane had to do was snap Batman's neck after he broke him. That argument is stupid.

Hey, don't bring sound logic into this.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But it's Batman so your rebuttal is invalid.

Alright, then all Zod had to do was stab Kal-El on his table in the heart when he was too weak to do anything and then harvest the Codex

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Why didn't Belloq just have the Hovitos put a bunch of arrows into Indy?

Yeah I don't grok those kinds of arguments. Sure in the 'really real world' the bad guys might off the hero 30 minutes in, but that makes for ****** fiction that no one wants to experience.

I would say it comes from a lack of ability to suspend disbelief, but that would invalidate my troll theory which I'm sure is what's really going on.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah I don't grok those kinds of arguments. Sure in the 'really real world' the bad guys might off the hero 30 minutes in, but that makes for ****** fiction that no one wants to experience.

I would say it comes from a lack of ability to suspend disbelief, but that would invalidate my troll theory which I'm sure is what's really going on.

Exactly. Almost every action film EVER made has this type of stuff. Why can't 20 guys shooting at a near 7 foot Arnold, who is stationary, with automatic weapons can't hit him once? Why does Bond never get killed in the millions of times he is captured? How does the Joker walk away so easily from a flipped truck? How can Doc Ock take all of Spider-Man's punches?

I can name SO many more examples of this. It's a stupid argument to make, and a cliche one.

 

[CB Fan]

Saw this twice and it wasn't until I saw it in 3d that I noticed how shaky the cam is during action scenes, kinda gave me a headache.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

That's weird. It's the least shakiest shakey-cam I've ever seen.

 

[C. Lee]

Why didn't Belloq just have the Hovitos put a bunch of arrows into Indy?

Because you can't monologue to a dead guy.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Because you can't monologue to a dead guy.

Supervillain rule #15.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Because you can't monologue to a dead guy.

But realism! It was poor writing to let Indy live!

 

[CB Fan]

That's weird. It's the least shakiest shakey-cam I've ever seen.

Did you see it in 3d? I didn't the first time but when I saw it in 3d last night it really took me by surprise as I didn't remember it being so shaky.