whats so bad about MJ and the romance?

[Johnny-Oh]

I know what the play represents, and she overreacted. As for her dating JJJ's son, fine, but don't try pulling the sympathy card. She only gives Peter a true chance at the end of SM1 when Harry dumps her. Should he have only waited for her? No, he did the mature, heart-breaking thing by turning her down, for his responsibility and her safety.
In SM2, it's pretty crappy she all of a sudden is dating JJJ's son to the point of engagement literally a couple of days, weeks at most after giving up on Peter for a minute. She does reconnect with Peter again after he finally got around to seeing the play. And I also don't see how appealing a character can be to get engaged because someone didn't see the play.

Regarding the upside down kiss in both cases, it's reasonable and selfish for both, and I've said as such.

Exactly, life is tough. MJ knows this. She needs to grow up. Granted JJJ's engagement was out of the blue, but nothing the guy did warranted the ****iness that MJ treated him with. It's as bad as how Kate Bosworth treated James Marsden in Superman Returns.

And read your post, it didn't prove any of what I said wrong.

How did she overracted? Not going after he promised meant to her that he didn't care and his excuse made no sense. Giving up on Peter for a minute? SM2 doesn't happen immediatly after SM1

You clearly don't understand that its not the play what's important for her but Peter's lack on interest(from her perspective), he had MANY chances to go(again from her perspective) and never did.

Don't remember anything about SR sorry

I haven't mention this but to me what makes MJ a compelling character its that she isn't necessarly the most likeable person.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah Spider-Man 2 is set 2 years later. When Peter and MJ see each other at Peter's birthday party MJ says long time no see. They obviously haven't seen each other in quite a while. MJ's got herself a thriving career in the profession she always wanted to do, she's moved out of home and got her own place, and she's got a steady boyfriend. She's independent and made something of her life. She didn't dwell in loneliness waiting for a guy who rejected her two years ago.

She didn't just suddenly start dating John. They have obviously been together a while, Peter just has not seen MJ in a long time that's why he didn't know.

 

[Majik1387]

How did she overracted? Not going after he promised meant to her that he didn't care and his excuse made no sense. Giving up on Peter for a minute? SM2 doesn't happen immediatly after SM1

You clearly don't understand that its not the play what's important for her but Peter's lack on interest(from her perspective), he had MANY chances to go(again from her perspective) and never did.

Don't remember anything about SR sorry

I haven't mention this but to me what makes MJ a compelling character its that she isn't necessarily the most likeable person.

I don't know if you know how theatre shows work, but from how it was portrayed in SM2, it's not like the show was going away anytime soon. She was being overly pushy and over-dramatic to get him to come to a show that apparently has plenty of showings. Of all people, Peter has been there for her when he needs to be; she was upset it wasn't on her call when that was. And like you said, he had plenty of chances to go, and he ended up going, so all her complaining was for nothing.

I wasn't referring to the time between SM1 and 2 as the minute. I'm referring to the time she gave up on Peter before he saw the show.

In SR, Lois is with James Marsden and "has a son" with him, but once Superman returned(zing), she goes into damsel in distress fawning over Superman again, despite having a husband with child.
It's similar in the sense of the ****ty way she treats her husband/boyfriend.

And again, I entirely understand what the play represent to MJ, based on her perspective and how she's been portrayed.

And an unlikable MJ is not Mary Jane Watson in the slightest; and like I said, that's why MJ and the romance is so bad, because you don't want it to work. You constantly find yourself asking "Why is Peter even bothering with this needy ****?"

 

[Doctor Octopus]

She didn't get fussy with Pete over a play! Its what that represents, I mean even she explains this when she said to him that everyone went to see her except him I don't know how you can use that against her. She dates JJJ's son because Peter avoids her, what is she supposed to do? What for him until he's got time for her? That's exactly what I meant that she isn't blindly devoted to him.

She never "connects with Peter again" she's mad that he didn't go to see her after he promised which is why she gets engaged with James. The upside down kiss with James was to see if it made her feel as her kiss with Peter and Spidey made her feel, its selfish but reasonable in her situation.

Poor James lol I felt bad for him but hey life's tough.

Ugh I adressed most of this in my first post, its in page 2 if you wanna be proven wrong lol

How did she overracted? Not going after he promised meant to her that he didn't care and his excuse made no sense. Giving up on Peter for a minute? SM2 doesn't happen immediatly after SM1

You clearly don't understand that its not the play what's important for her but Peter's lack on interest(from her perspective), he had MANY chances to go(again from her perspective) and never did.

Don't remember anything about SR sorry

I haven't mention this but to me what makes MJ a compelling character its that she isn't necessarly the most likeable person.

Agreed.

 

[SymbioteSeb]

She was written horribly! How are you supposed to say an unlikeable character is GOOD??
An unlikeable character is an unlikeable character,
no matter how hard they tried to make her unlikeable, if she is unlikeable, SHE'S A TERRIBLE CHARACTER

 

[SymbioteSeb]

Like I said, she's a walking stereotype.
She always needs Spider-Man to save her, and got captured like 9 TIMES and NEVER learned anything to be more careful,mind you, what does that tell you about women huh?
That they don't defend themselves without the help of a MAN to come to her rescue.

 

[The Joker]

Unless you found her likeable in two out of the three movies like I and others did (there's even some who liked her in 3), then she's not a wholly unlikeable character. Simple as that.

Your sexist drivel about a woman needing a man to save her is hilariously stupid. Where are you from the 1950's?

You also can't seemingly count. She was captured 3 times. Not 9. Extreme hyperbole doesn't strengthen an argument.

 

[SymbioteSeb]

That doesn't change the fact that she LITERALLY is a stereotype.
You responded earlier than my second post, so that's okay

 

[Majik1387]

Personally, I don't care if a character is a stereotype, as long as the performer has the charisma and performs the role differently enough for it to not matter.

That's not what happened here. Dunst has the charisma, but there's no way she could have performed the role with the bad writing she had. It also didn't help the lack of chemistry with Tobey, but it's moot at this point.

 

[The Joker]

Except it's not a fact that she is a stereotype. She's an independent woman with her own place, her own career, she's not depending on anyone to support her. She comes from a troubled family with an abusive father. Something that has clearly affected her as abusive childhoods so often do - "I look at these words and it's like my father wrote them". Where's the stereotype here?

Not being able to defend herself from super villains who are strong enough to flip cars like they were toys is not being a stereotype. Not that she didn't act against the villains in two out of the three situations, and in Venom's case her dropping a cinder block on his head gave Spider-Man that opportunity to get the upper hand. The way you talk you're expecting her to be Wonder Woman and kick super villain ass.

 

[SymbioteSeb]

Except it's not a fact that she is a stereotype. She's an independent woman with her own place, her own career, she's not depending on anyone to support her. She comes from a troubled family with an abusive father. Something that has clearly affected her as abusive childhoods so often do - "I look at these words and it's like my father wrote them". Where's the stereotype here?

Not being able to defend herself from super villains who are strong enough to flip cars like they were toys is not being a stereotype. Not that she didn't act against the villains in two out of the three situations, and in Venom's case her dropping a cinder block on his head gave Spider-Man that opportunity to get the upper hand.

Well, I guess you proved your point, but what Majik said was right.
Kristen Dunst did good with what she was given, and though it wasn't ANYTHING, she still did well.
the bad writing and the fact that her and Tobey have NO chemistry made me not care for her at all
My opinion though

 

[The Joker]

Well, I guess you proved your point

Thanks. I hoped I had.

but what Majik said was right

No that's his opinion.

Kristen Dunst did good with what she was given, and though it wasn't ANYTHING, she still did well.
the bad writing and the fact that her and Tobey have NO chemistry made me not care for her at all

More opinion. In 3 I would agree with all of this, but not in 1 and 2. They had genuine chemistry and the character was well written. Especially for a character who didn't know Peter was Spider-Man, and was continually being let down by him.

In Spider-Man 3 she did not have this excuse, and therefore her behavior comes off as terrible, for reasons I explained to another poster on the previous page.

But the hyperbole criticism for her in 1 and 2 is way off, IMO.

My opinion though

I respect it. I don't entirely agree with it, but I respect it, apart from the sexist remark you made before.

 

[SymbioteSeb]

Thanks. I hoped I had.



No that's his opinion.



More opinion. In 3 I would agree with all of this, but not in 1 and 2. They had genuine chemistry and the character was well written. Especially for a character who didn't know Peter was Spider-Man, and was continually being let down by him.

In Spider-Man 3 she did not have this excuse, and therefore her behavior comes off as terrible, for reasons I explained to another poster on the previous page.

But the hyperbole criticism for her in 1 and 2 is way off, IMO.





I respect it. I don't entirely agree with it, but I respect it, apart from the sexist remark you made before.

Thanks. That's always good
Yeah I think I went too overboard at some points, sorry. Anything decision that I think would prove myself right I will take :/

 

[Majik1387]

I would agree she's a strong independent woman to a point, but the writing treats her with the Hollywood stereotype that all women want is a man. It can sometimes be done well and work for some characters, but MJ is on the negative spectrum in that stereotype for me.

She seems to always have to need a man emotionally; Flash, Harry, Peter, John Jameson, and then Harry/Peter drama. She never seemed to be a woman alright with being single. And again, that's another issue with the writing.

 

[The Joker]

Thanks. That's always good
Yeah I think I went too overboard at some points, sorry. Anything that I think would prove myself right I will take :/

You're fine. I'd be lying if I said I've never gone overboard in the past, too, making a point. We're all guilty of it I think at some time or another. Sometimes it's easy to get carried away.

 

[SymbioteSeb]

I would agree she's a strong independent woman to a point, but the writing treats her with the Hollywood stereotype that all women want is a man. It can sometimes be done well and work for some characters, but MJ is on the negative spectrum in that stereotype for me.

She seems to always have to need a man emotionally; Flash, Harry, Peter, John Jameson, and then Harry/Peter drama. She never seemed to be a woman alright with being single. And again, that's another issue with the writing.

I agree

 

[SymbioteSeb]

You're fine. I'd be lying if I said I've never gone overboard in the past, too, making a point. We're all guilty of it I think at some time or another. Sometimes it's easy to get carried away.

I also agree with that

 

[The Joker]

I would agree she's a strong independent woman to a point, but the writing treats her with the Hollywood stereotype that all women want is a man. It can sometimes be done well and work for some characters, but MJ is on the negative spectrum in that stereotype for me.

She seems to always have to need a man emotionally; Flash, Harry, Peter, John Jameson, and then Harry/Peter drama. She never seemed to be a woman alright with being single. And again, that's another issue with the writing.

But it's not all she wants. Trying to make a success of herself in a career she loves is also something she really wants, and is shown in all three movies (reduced to working in the Moondance diner and going to failed auditions in SM-1, her successful role in The Importance of Being Ernest in SM-2, and her singing gigs in SM-3), and in the case of the third movie it becomes a dilemma for her because she is fired from it, she's hurt and humiliated, and is reduced to having to sing in a Jazz club.

Furthermore MJ being a woman who goes through men, before she settles down for good with the one she loves is a staple of the character. In fact the first time Peter proposed to her she blew him off like he had been nothing to her all along but a casual fling;

 

[Majik1387]

I know it's not all she wants. I mainly refer to it because this thread is about her, and her romance. In the third, honestly, it's not that I was happy to see her have job issues, but it was a nice break from "Oh no one loves me! What man can I go to next!"

And yes, I know MJ dates around, I have no problem with that, but the manner it was done in the movie is the problem I have.

And when Peter first proposed to her in the comics, she didn't blow him off in that manner, she just did not want to be tied down to anyone at that point.

 

[Majik1387]

edit: double post

 

[The Joker]

I know it's not all she wants.

Good. Then it's not a stereotype of all a woman wants is a man. There was more to her character than that.

And yes, I know MJ dates around, I have no problem with that, but the manner it was done in the movie is the problem I have.

It was actually done better in the movies, because in the comics MJ does string guys along like it's going somewhere, and then when they try to commit she blows them off. Case in point Peter thinks their relationship has reached a serious stage where marriage is on the cards, and she turns around and says no, there's a world of guys out there for her to meet, and is smiling and acting like all they did was go on a couple of hand holding dates.

If Peter knew she never wanted to be committed to one guy he'd never have bothered with her in the first place. Meaning she never told him, and never gave that impression. He was strung along.

 

[Majik1387]

Eh, I'll agree to disagree here.

Movie MJ wants fame and a man, but the focal point with her mainly had to do with finding a man; that's where she fits in the negative stereotype.

And no, I will take free spirited comic MJ, who is known to date around, she doesn't hide it, lets guys down easy; over skanky, cheating, and desperate movie MJ.

 

[Spider-knight]

I hope they don't go for that in the future films. I would like for MJ to be like her actual character but not written like a heartless woman or in this case Akari from kimi no iru machi if you read the manga.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

As far as a love interest to the hero, I think she was good and portrayed well.

But as Mary Jane Watson, there were things I didn't like.

I think of it like Bryan Singer's first X-Men film. It's good but it isn't the X-Men we all know and love.

 

[The Joker]

Eh, I'll agree to disagree here.

Fair enough.

Movie MJ wants fame and a man, but the focal point with her mainly had to do with finding a man; that's where she fits in the negative stereotype.

Hyperbole. She wants a career in a profession she loves, and a man she loves. Nothing wrong with either. How she goes about getting love, that's the questionable part.

And no, I will take free spirited comic MJ, who is known to date around, she doesn't hide it, lets guys down easy; over skanky, cheating, and desperate movie MJ.

But she does hide it, until the guy tries to get serious. Or do you think Peter would have proposed in the first place, let alone even dated her if he knew it wasn't going to go anywhere?

Rhetorical question. We know the answer is no.