Where did DC/WB go wrong? - Part 1

[Raiden]

I think ASM is going to be huge. Much bigger than some think. All the focus is on The Avengers and TDKR but I am totally taken by TAS trailers. It is going to outperform expectations IMO. That's saying a lot as expectations are 600 million plus for ASM.

I wasn't initially sold on TAS and its attempt to reboot Spider-Man, but the trailer is slowly winning me over. I think it will do very well at the box office, although it won't beat Raimi's first SM movie and will likely gross less than either TA and TDKR.

 

[Kyle Rayner]

WB likes to tease, they will do a $300 million dollar Batman movie. When BATS came out it slowly open the door for Superman, that led for other heroes to show. When JL started there was hope for a JL live action film, still that did not happen.

With all the Batman cartoons they are always hinting to a JL/other DC character film, just to tease fans to believe that there is hope. It's the 21st century, CGI has evolved, the excuse to not make the movies is ridiculous. Someone here will tell me that "WB will not invest money on a unknown character." Which I believe they would be wrong, they do not try hard enough to develop a script and lack vision. They have this amazing library full of characters, heroes, villains, almost a century of stories that they can turn into a great profit.

I still do not see the problem here with them. All I see is lack of enthusiam.

 

[Tobias]

WB likes to tease, they will do a $300 million dollar Batman movie. When BATS came out it slowly open the door for Superman, that led for other heroes to show. When JL started there was hope for a JL live action film, still that did not happen.

With all the Batman cartoons they are always hinting to a JL/other DC character film, just to tease fans to believe that there is hope. It's the 21st century, CGI has evolved, the excuse to not make the movies is ridiculous. Someone here will tell me that "WB will not invest money on a unknown character." Which I believe they would be wrong, they do not try hard enough to develop a script and lack vision. They have this amazing library full of characters, heroes, villains, almost a century of stories that they can turn into a great profit.

I still do not see the problem here with them. All I see is lack of enthusiam.

I don't think it's a lack of enthusiasm, I think it's a lack of perceived profitabilty and specifically ROI that keeps WB from doing more with it's DC properties.

Invesing 225 million plus in a film? That means the film needs to do around 600 million at theatres to make the film viable.

Marvel has 3 such franchises - Ironman, Avengers and Spiderman (SONY controls Spidey for now). WB has only 2 such franchise Batman and JL. Personally I think GL could be a 600 million franchise so at best WB has 3 "mega-franchises - Bats, GL and JL.

Some may disagree on GL being a mega-franchise for DC. IMO it will ultimately prove to be the most successful solo DC film franchise after Batman - once the proper writers, director, producer and CGI team is brought on board and this thing is re-launched.

The second tier franchses are super-heros costing 150 million or about to make which can do around 400 million in theatres.

Marvel has Cap, Thor, X-Men and Wolverine in this category. WB has nada. Due to the fact WB has not tried Flash or WW or Hawkman.

WB's reluctance to try second tier DC character is that for the same money they can do a non-DC character/films and sci-fi stufflike Hobbit and get a 600 million or more BO for a 150 million investment.

It's all ROI which will probably continue to hold WB back from doing more DC films.

 

[gugumugats]

I think animated series are the way to go versus big blockbuster movies.

They seem to sell more at toy stores than big movies do PLUS they generate fan loyalty in a lot of younger children. I think The Clone Wars has created a lot of young Star Wars fans even though the original came out decades ago. In addition, the Batman TAS made me the Batman/DC fan I am today.

With Cartoon Network's DC Nation, DC/WB will have an opportunity to create a youth fanbase for JL and GL. I think GL is gearing up to be the next mega-franchise too. Especially since his universe can sell a hell of a lot more toys than other superheroes (with the exception of maybe Batman).

 

[Tobias]

I think animated series are the way to go versus big blockbuster movies.

They seem to sell more at toy stores than big movies do PLUS they generate fan loyalty in a lot of younger children. I think The Clone Wars has created a lot of young Star Wars fans even though the original came out decades ago. In addition, the Batman TAS made me the Batman/DC fan I am today.

With Cartoon Network's DC Nation, DC/WB will have an opportunity to create a youth fanbase for JL and GL. I think GL is gearing up to be the next mega-franchise too. Especially since his universe can sell a hell of a lot more toys than other superheroes (with the exception of maybe Batman).

Yup.

WB/DC has 3 mega-franchises for sure right now. Batman at 1 billion and JL and GL as 600 million blockbusters. JL could approach Batman numbers depending....

Beyond that WB/DC has no 500 million let alone 600 million franchises. And they know it which is partly why they move so slowly on this.

WW and Flash can be sucessful because they can be made for 150 million and make probably 400 - 450 milion. On a par w/Thor. Both are, speaking of toys, toy challeneged.

WB/DC has another 600 million mega-franchise waiting in the wings I'm sure and I think it will come from one of their second tier characters.

If I has to guess I'd say Shazaam. Very toy-friendly with Spiderman like appeal.

 

[CConn]

If WB was smart, they'd make Shazam into a CGI-film in the vein of The Incredibles or Megamind. It would kill.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

If WB was smart, they'd make Shazam into a CGI-film in the vein of The Incredibles or Megamind. It would kill.

Only if Patrick Warburton does the voice. t:

 

[gugumugats]

Yup.

WB/DC has 3 mega-franchises for sure right now. Batman at 1 billion and JL and GL as 600 million blockbusters. JL could approach Batman numbers depending....

Beyond that WB/DC has no 500 million let alone 600 million franchises. And they know it which is partly why they move so slowly on this.

WW and Flash can be sucessful because they can be made for 150 million and make probably 400 - 450 milion. On a par w/Thor. Both are, speaking of toys, toy challeneged.

WB/DC has another 600 million mega-franchise waiting in the wings I'm sure and I think it will come from one of their second tier characters.

If I has to guess I'd say Shazaam. Very toy-friendly with Spiderman like appeal.

I'm not sure if Shazam is all that toy-friendly in the way Green Lantern and Batman are. Batman has his various suits and gadgets and cars while Green Lantern can have various suits, various constructs, and an entire Green Lantern/Rainbow Lantern corps.

Also, on a sad note, it looks like Geoff Johns is trying to revive Shazam (which is also what Captain Marvel will now be named) in DC Comics as a darker character:

 

[Lord]

I'm not against renaming him at all, but if a movie about him is made i hope that he's not dark and is a boyscout like the original, i think it would also be a great oportunity to pay tribute to the golden age.

 

[K'Prime]

Also, on a sad note, it looks like Geoff Johns is trying to revive Shazam (which is also what Captain Marvel will now be named) in DC Comics as a darker character:

i have no words to capture how much i dislike geoff johns.. i'm open to new interpretations but I prefer the good cap

 

[moe]

Assuming WB will do 1 superhero film per year from 2015 on, leaving GL out of that equation does not make sense to me.

Of all the JL characters only GL, IMO, can do huge numbers. Not a billion like Bats, but say 500 - 600 million like IM.

I'd love to see Flash and WW on the big-screen and I think we will but these are not to me mega-franchises. At best they are Thor like franchises. 450 million or so. And that ain't bad. Thor is getting quick sequels.

I just don't see how WB doesn't do a GL reboot w/in 10 years.

Unless WB goes with it's secondary characters. Those films would be cheaper to make and I think, aside from GL and Bats, WB will find it's next mega-franchise from one of these.

Top of the list - Shazam. It has the potential to be another Spiderman.

Next decade?

2015 - Flash
2016 - Batman reboot
2017 - WW, if not a GL reboot
2018 - Flash 2
2019 - Batman reboot 2
2020 - Shazaam
2021 - WW 2
2022 - Batman reboot 3

There. I did a full decade ahead for WB w/o including GL. However, I think a GL reboot will come around a lot quicker than many think.

no one would reboot batman 4 years after Nolan's trilogy... that would mean story, casting and pre-production would have to start about a year after TDKR... likely a few months after the dvd is released...

and there is no need to reboot it... Begins is the best origin you can ask for any comic book hero. just tell different stories.

 

[moe]

I wasn't initially sold on TAS and its attempt to reboot Spider-Man, but the trailer is slowly winning me over. I think it will do very well at the box office, although it won't beat Raimi's first SM movie and will likely gross less than either TA and TDKR.

its gonna outgross TA worldwide... spidy is the biggest superhero overseas... likely going to make 650+ overseas.

 

[gugumugats]

Assuming WB will do 1 superhero film per year from 2015 on, leaving GL out of that equation does not make sense to me.

Of all the JL characters only GL, IMO, can do huge numbers. Not a billion like Bats, but say 500 - 600 million like IM.

I'd love to see Flash and WW on the big-screen and I think we will but these are not to me mega-franchises. At best they are Thor like franchises. 450 million or so. And that ain't bad. Thor is getting quick sequels.

I just don't see how WB doesn't do a GL reboot w/in 10 years.

Unless WB goes with it's secondary characters. Those films would be cheaper to make and I think, aside from GL and Bats, WB will find it's next mega-franchise from one of these.

Top of the list - Shazam. It has the potential to be another Spiderman.

Next decade?

2015 - Flash
2016 - Batman reboot
2017 - WW, if not a GL reboot
2018 - Flash 2
2019 - Batman reboot 2
2020 - Shazaam
2021 - WW 2
2022 - Batman reboot 3

There. I did a full decade ahead for WB w/o including GL. However, I think a GL reboot will come around a lot quicker than many think.

How come the Man of Steel franchise is excluded??? I think a Man of Steel sequel would be a more likely thing than a Shazam movie.

 

[Tobias]

no one would reboot batman 4 years after Nolan's trilogy... that would mean story, casting and pre-production would have to start about a year after TDKR... likely a few months after the dvd is released...

and there is no need to reboot it... Begins is the best origin you can ask for any comic book hero. just tell different stories.

You are correct. Reboot was the wrong word. The Batman re-launch doesn't need to redo the origin. I doubt it will.

I think WB goes for 2015 or 2016 for Batman's relaunch. It's like what else do they have.

I think WB will announce the relaunch in the fall of this year after TDKR completes it's theatre run. That's plenty of time to have a film out by 2015 especially if Nolan is going to remain on board in some capacity.

 

[metaphysician]

Giving it some thought. . . okay, so yes, Man of Steel is being rushed, they weren't originally going to do it so soon. However, theory: this could be a good thing.

Why? DC's biggest problem traditionally has been actually getting movies to market. For every movie that actually hits theaters, there are a half dozen adaptations that die in development hell. Whereas the Marvel IP, by contrast, isn't allowed to lay fallow in the same way, since everyone is in a "use it or lose it" situation.

So, my thought is that, maybe being forced to actually *make* a movie will be good for DC and Man of Steel, because they won't be able to dither and dally forever.

Granted, it could well suck badly. This is just a theory, and even if "use it or lose it" is good in the broad sense, that doesn't mean it won't turn out badly in this particular case. . .

 

[Tobias]

I wasn't initially sold on TAS and its attempt to reboot Spider-Man, but the trailer is slowly winning me over. I think it will do very well at the box office, although it won't beat Raimi's first SM movie and will likely gross less than either TA and TDKR.

Agreed TAS won't do as well as TA or TDKR. Of the three it will IMO do way better than expected. And expectations are high for TAS. I think it could outperform Raimi's films.

I'm impressed by all 3 sets of trailers but most impressed by TAS and least by TDKR.

TAS has an "intimacy" the other 2 films don't based on the trailers. Tons of action but it looks like there is a real story running throughout.

TAS will do gangbusters with the guys and I think it will do well with the young female demo. Way better than TDKR and TA will do.

Garfield has a "hotness" factor which McGuire never did . That is going to add to TAS's appeal beyond the guys.

TAS is going to be the sleeper hit of 2012.

 

[CConn]

no one would reboot batman 4 years after Nolan's trilogy... that would mean story, casting and pre-production would have to start about a year after TDKR... likely a few months after the dvd is released...

and there is no need to reboot it... Begins is the best origin you can ask for any comic book hero. just tell different stories.

WB will most definitely be making another Batman movie within the next four years.

Nolan's already talked about his role in producing it.

 

[souvlaki]

Giving it some thought. . . okay, so yes, Man of Steel is being rushed, they weren't originally going to do it so soon. However, theory: this could be a good thing.

Why? DC's biggest problem traditionally has been actually getting movies to market. For every movie that actually hits theaters, there are a half dozen adaptations that die in development hell. Whereas the Marvel IP, by contrast, isn't allowed to lay fallow in the same way, since everyone is in a "use it or lose it" situation.

So, my thought is that, maybe being forced to actually *make* a movie will be good for DC and Man of Steel, because they won't be able to dither and dally forever.

Granted, it could well suck badly. This is just a theory, and even if "use it or lose it" is good in the broad sense, that doesn't mean it won't turn out badly in this particular case. . .

I know you were referring to the film being greenlit so fast, but I find it hilarious that you used the word "rushed" to describe MOS when it will be in production for well over a year by the time it's actually finished, and in post production almost as long.

 

[CConn]

They think it's rushed because of its quick greenlighting, preproduction, and hiring of Zack Synder.

They all think Synder was just the most available stand in for WB to use to get the film in production by 2011. Which is, of course, ridiculous, but don't try to tell them that.

 

[Tobias]

WB will most definitely be making another Batman movie within the next four years.

Nolan's already talked about his role in producing it.

ITA.

Batman is the only "real" thing WB has going DC-wise at this time.

Sure there is JL but that is a "dream" franchise waiting to happen - someday.

WB hasn't retained Nolan to let him sit around and twiddle his thumbs for 6, 7 or more years. Yet many seem to think that is the earliest there will be a Batman re-launch.

My guess is WB's first priority is to as quickly as possible re-launch Batman. I think it may be done as quickly as 3 years but no more than 4. BOM opined that waiting longer than 4 yers to re-launch a franchise poses a big-risk to the success of the re-launch.

The JL dream can only come out of the foundation of the new Batman franchise. Another reason to get Bats going ASAP. Especially if TA does the billion number.

To get JL out by 2017 or 2018 WB is going to have to have the new Batman out by 2015.

Three years. That's my expectation. I think it will be confirmed this fall after TDKR completes it's theatrical run.

 

[metaphysician]

"Rushed" is perhaps a strong word, yes, but note how long it took WB to put out Superman Returns.

 

[solidsnake86]

"Rushed" is perhaps a strong word, yes, but note how long it took WB to put out Superman Returns.

Actually superman returns was put together pretty quickly, they hired singer in june or july of 04, hired routh sometime in the summer, and wrote a completely new script not based on any previous attempts. Filming began in march or april of 2005 for a 2006 release. MOS is just fine and has more time than Returns did. Not to mention its an origin story, which superman has plenty of comic material, as well as cartoons, movies etc. to pull from. MOS is anything but rushed.

X-men first class was rushed, heck even the marvel movies are rushed compared to the time this film has.

 

[Tobias]

They think it's rushed because of its quick greenlighting, preproduction, and hiring of Zack Synder.

They all think Synder was just the most available stand in for WB to use to get the film in production by 2011. Which is, of course, ridiculous, but don't try to tell them that.

I'd say they are referring to the quick greenlighting and pre-prod. Also the almost defacto casting of Cavill. An easy choice as he'd been among the group of runner-ups in prior attempts.

Personally I'm not at all sold on Cavill but, if he had ended up the choice, I would have felt a lot more comfortable about the casting if there had been a full-on worldwide search for the actor. That pesky court order included a timeline and so a months-long search for a "perfect" actor had to be foregone.

 

[The Morningstar]

I gotta say, DCs new "Captain Marvel" is horrible. All grimdark looking. Bring back the Big Red Cheese tis what i say.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

"Rushed" is perhaps a strong word, yes, but note how long it took WB to put out Superman Returns.

How exactly was MoS rushed?

The film is officially now in post-production and it's sporting a 2013 release.