Where did DC/WB go wrong? - Part 1

[metaphysician]

I think DC *could* do a joint universe, I just don't think they've demonstrated the interest or competency to actually *succeed* at it as of yet.

Or: lets wait and see if Man of Steel is good. If they can do a decent Superman movie, then there's hope. Provided, of course, they don't decide to do something really stupid, like an immediate JLA movie that doesn't have continuity with any other movies at all.

 

[roach]

http://www.worldofsuperheroes.com/f...inventing-batman-after-the-dark-knight-rises/

"Robinov has said that a new Justice League script ‘is’ in the works. Also being written for Warner are scripts featuring the Flash and Wonder Woman."

 

[Tobias]

I think DC *could* do a joint universe, I just don't think they've demonstrated the interest or competency to actually *succeed* at it as of yet.

Or: lets wait and see if Man of Steel is good. If they can do a decent Superman movie, then there's hope. Provided, of course, they don't decide to do something really stupid, like an immediate JLA movie that doesn't have continuity with any other movies at all.

Competency is a worry given how SR and GL turned out.

WB will take their time on JL IMO. In part I think because WB won't move on JL until after Batman is relanched. I think JL is 6 or 7 years away.

The better TA does the more WB is going to have to spend on JL. This film is going to be, if not the most expensive, then near the most expensive WB has done.

WB can't go with unknowns as actors as was the case with JL Mortal.

IMO they need established middle tier actors as Bale was leading into Batman.

I think casting will be huge and itself will take a long, long time. The actors need a great chemistry with each other. Again, WB needs to take time in developeing JL.

Finally, I wish JL could be held to just 4 heros - won't happen. But at the most it should be restricted to 5. Batman will be the focus of JL as WB will use his uber-success to launch JL. So Bats will get a fair amount of screentime and the only way to counter that is to pare down the number of other heros in the film to make sure them don't come off as little more than cameos.

Screentime is a big issue and JL has to balance itself to allow developemnt of the new to the big-screen heros it will most assuredly be featuring.

It's a difficult project but the potential reward for WB is huge.

 

[conan69]

I have to side with Morningstar here.

WB is notorious for interferring with their comic book properties. I really compare WB to Fox and look at their comic book output - Elektra, 2 pathetic Fantastic Four films, Daredevil, REALLY bad X-Men decisions.

When they back off, we get a Batman Begins and TDK.

I wanted to like GL. I was excited to see it, but the reviews were SO bad, I put it off.

WB should make a DCU creative team. Guys who know and understand these characters, can pitch ideas, oversee DC projects, and work on good scripts that will interest creative filmmakers.

 

[Cain]

I have to side with Morningstar here.

WB is notorious for interferring with their comic book properties. I really compare WB to Fox and look at their comic book output - Elektra, 2 pathetic Fantastic Four films, Daredevil, REALLY bad X-Men decisions.

When they back off, we get a Batman Begins and TDK.

I wanted to like GL. I was excited to see it, but the reviews were SO bad, I put it off.

WB should make a DCU creative team. Guys who know and understand these characters, can pitch ideas, oversee DC projects, and work on good scripts that will interest creative filmmakers.

In a perfect world they'd realize just how valuable Dini, Timm, Alan Burnett and James Tucker have been to them in introducing these characters to new generations through fresh in execution yet familiar in spirit media adaptations (animated shows, video games, comics etc.) and just hire them to be in charge of the live action stuff too.

 

[conan69]

^ Exactly.

Guys like that are a great place to start.

 

[Cain]

http://www.worldofsuperheroes.com/f...inventing-batman-after-the-dark-knight-rises/

"Robinov has said that a new Justice League script ‘is’ in the works. Also being written for Warner are scripts featuring the Flash and Wonder Woman."

Robinov always says this lol.

 

[Docker2.0]

I have to side with Morningstar here.

WB is notorious for interferring with their comic book properties. I really compare WB to Fox and look at their comic book output - Elektra, 2 pathetic Fantastic Four films, Daredevil, REALLY bad X-Men decisions.

When they back off, we get a Batman Begins and TDK.

I wanted to like GL. I was excited to see it, but the reviews were SO bad, I put it off.

WB should make a DCU creative team. Guys who know and understand these characters, can pitch ideas, oversee DC projects, and work on good scripts that will interest creative filmmakers.

I think WB let Singer have his way with Superman and we got SR. I think they got to involved with GL and look what we got. I think it depends on who's involved. Campbell wasn't really to much into comics. Singer just got lost with SR. Nolan was perfect to a degree with TDK but for the entire DCU? I just don't see it. I think if they get a geek like Whedon or Tim who did the DCAU, that would be a start. Someone who knows comics, knows what fanboys want and yet know how to deliver the goods. It's a hard trifecta but it's right in front of their faces, hidden in plain sight but the blind bastichs can't see it!!

 

[conan69]

Yea I think Singer made too many mistakes, and prob was just a bad match with Superman. He did some things right, but alot wrong.
I think Singers works better with daker more complex material. The SR script was a bit too familiar and dumbed down.

I do appreciate he tried to do some new things with the character, but Superman will always be about hope, not dark and brooding.
Synders version isnt getting me excited either. Theres a whole universe out there - Brainiac, Darkseid, Metallo, and we're getting Luthor, Zod, origin story again.Oh, and dark and brooding Superman ala Batman influences. Superman doesnt have Batmans dark psychology.

sigh.


I still prefer Superman Returns over Green Lantern and all of Fox Superhero films with the exception of Xmen2 and First Class.

 

[Cain]

Yeah Man of Steel is the last time to show and prove. I like Snyder actually cause I've enjoyed his movies and Cavill was the guy I wanted to see as Supes etc. but at the end of the day it could all crash & burn.

This is the last chance I'll give them; exception being Batman movies which I'll watch by proxy cause it's my favorite character. I don't think I'll even see a Flash movie if MOS doesn't stack up and I've wanted a Flash movie for ages. If it doesn't come through I'm find with just going to Marvel Studios for a non-Batman superhero movie fix. Which sucks cause I'm actually more of a DC fan but at least they have a good vision that's been executed in an entertaining manner so far.

Superman isn't dark and broody. I hope Goyer and Nolan understand the fundamentals like they did Batman and push a Superman movie as far as it could be pushed creatively.

There's still a possibility that they don't get it. Time will tell but I really hope this one gets it otherwise if WB as a stuido can't get Superman right I doubt they could any other heroes.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Yea I think Singer made too many mistakes, and prob was just a bad match with Superman. He did some things right, but alot wrong.
I think Singers works better with daker more complex material. The SR script was a bit too familiar and dumbed down.

I do appreciate he tried to do some new things with the character, but Superman will always be about hope, not dark and brooding.
Synders version isnt getting me excited either. Theres a whole universe out there - Brainiac, Darkseid, Metallo, and we're getting Luthor, Zod, origin story again.Oh, and dark and brooding Superman ala Batman influences. Superman doesnt have Batmans dark psychology.

sigh.


I still prefer Superman Returns over Green Lantern and all of Fox Superhero films with the exception of Xmen2 and First Class.

Has Luthor been confirmed? I don't remember anything about Lex Luthor being featured.

Eh, I'm extremely confident in Snyder's/Nolan's/Goyer's Man of Steel. It's all about the approach, and Singer picked the wrong one for the modern audience. I doubt the trio chose a similar route for their Superman.

Edgy does not equal Dark and Brooding.

If MoS succeeds, I am expecting Brainiac, Darkseid or Doomsday. Zod, though, was the perfect villain for an origin film.

 

[Tobias]

Yeah Man of Steel is the last time to show and prove. I like Snyder actually cause I've enjoyed his movies and Cavill was the guy I wanted to see as Supes etc. but at the end of the day it could all crash & burn.

This is the last chance I'll give them; exception being Batman movies which I'll watch by proxy cause it's my favorite character. I don't think I'll even see a Flash movie if MOS doesn't stack up and I've wanted a Flash movie for ages. If it doesn't come through I'm find with just going to Marvel Studios for a non-Batman superhero movie fix. Which sucks cause I'm actually more of a DC fan but at least they have a good vision that's been executed in an entertaining manner so far.

Superman isn't dark and broody. I hope Goyer and Nolan understand the fundamentals like they did Batman and push a Superman movie as far as it could be pushed creatively.

There's still a possibility that they don't get it. Time will tell but I really hope this one gets it otherwise if WB as a stuido can't get Superman right I doubt they could any other heroes.

ITD about Cavill - he was a default choice because of the forced time-frame to get the movie going. Bad choice IMO though I hope he proves m wrong.

When MOS crashes next year I don't think WB will use it as a gauge. It's a film they didn't want to make but were forced to. Superman is not on WB's radar IMO. I suspect they have discounted MOS already.

My worry is GL. Now that is a franchise WB had high hopes in and - well the film was a huge disappointment.

WB will continue to make DC films, but probably at a snail's pace.

All they have now is Batman and probably JL building off of Batman.

IMHO however, DC films are not on WB's priority list. And never will be.

Marvel Studios is a totally different game.

 

[jmc]

I'd like WB to listen to pitches from directors passionate about the properties, it's no good setting up some internal structure within DC Entertainment to do it, find directors who actually want to make the movies and let things evolve organically, once you do that don't force things to happen, don't leave things out for future movies, just make the best damn movie here and now. Part of where GL went wrong was WB were so sure of themselves they planted seeds for future GL movies. I hate that mentality, don't plant seeds, don't leave things out, make the best effing movie first and foremost, deal with sequels when they come around.

 

[conan69]

Has Luthor been confirmed? I don't remember anything about Lex Luthor being featured.

Pulling string in the background, but not the main adversary I thought. Which IS the right way to go, but I really want them to go somewhere else. Something bold and different.

I hate to be downbeat, but have to say, the idea of going back to Krypton, Jor-El... its not doing it for me.

Darkseid, Metallo, Brainiac <--- Now Im interested.

 

[Tobias]

Pulling string in the background, but not the main adversary I thought. Which IS the right way to go, but I really want them to go somewhere else. Something bold and different.

I hate to be downbeat, but have to say, the idea of going back to Krypton, Jor-El... its not doing it for me.

Darkseid, Metallo, Brainiac <--- Now Im interested.

You have every reason to be downbeat.

WB did this on the "cheap". ordered to make a film they went with the least expensive storyline. Not that MOS is going to cost them little. It's likley to be 175 million or more.

However, to do the "right kind" of film would have cost way north of 200 million. Why should WB invest that kind of money into a film they didn't want.

To do the story that should have been done, if WB wanted to relaunch the franchise, which clearly they didn't, you would need to have gone with Darkseid or Brainiac. Something bold as you say.

But it is what it is. MOS is a knock-off. The bigger threat to future WB DC films is the poor performane of GL last year. That is what scares me.

I don't and won't blame WB for MOS.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Tobias, you keep downplaying the film on absolutely nothing. Iron Man was a mess from the start (it had a unfinished script) and yet still Iron Man came out on top as a smashing success.

I sure hope you hold onto your opinions when the film comes out, and not flip flop.

 

[conan69]

Iron Man was in developmental hell forever. I remember reading about that back in the mid 90s on Coronas Coming Attractions website.

But once JonF came onto the scene, with a definitive vision of the movie, a supportive studio and creative team - it moved along pretty well.

 

[CConn]

Yeah, I think that's the problem with all of DC's movies...so far we've heard of no one having any definitive or resolute vision for any DC movie. Except for Nolan. And look how awesome that turned out.

From everything we've heard, JL, WW, GL, and the little they've done with Flash has been with second rate writers and directors with a lack of a pure, clean creative vision. And that's probably a big reason why they haven't gotten made. And for good reason.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I'd like WB to listen to pitches from directors passionate about the properties, it's no good setting up some internal structure within DC Entertainment to do it, find directors who actually want to make the movies and let things evolve organically, once you do that don't force things to happen, don't leave things out for future movies, just make the best damn movie here and now. Part of where GL went wrong was WB were so sure of themselves they planted seeds for future GL movies. I hate that mentality, don't plant seeds, don't leave things out, make the best effing movie first and foremost, deal with sequels when they come around.

I agree, but at the same time passion isn't everything, as Superman returns had shown.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Yeah, I think that's the problem with all of DC's movies...so far we've heard of no one having any definitive or resolute vision for any DC movie. Except for Nolan. And look how awesome that turned out.

From everything we've heard, JL, WW, GL, and the little they've done with Flash has been with second rate writers and directors with a lack of a pure, clean creative vision. And that's probably a big reason why they haven't gotten made. And for good reason.

Once again, I bring up SR. That did have a definitive vision.

And I wouldn't call Martin Campbell second-rate. He was just the wrong type of director for GL.

 

[CConn]

But that just reinforces my point. Singer DID have a very definitive vision for SR, and WB supported him. It's a shame it was met with lukewarm reaction, but that's really another matter entirely; the important aspect is that WB HAS supported talented directors with a strong creative visions. And that's always a good thing. Even when it doesn't work out too well - like in SR - you'll still end up with a better movie than the FFs and GRs of the world.

No, Campbell's not second rate. But it was never HIS projective. He was chosen to bring someone else's script and someone else's vision to the screen...and that was the first misstep for GL. Even if he's the wrong type of director, I'd suspect it would've been a much better movie if it was his idea, tailored to his directorial style.

 

[conan69]

And I wouldn't call Martin Campbell second-rate. He was just the wrong type of director for GL.

Wasnt studio interference the problem here too though. I remember seeing quotes from Martin that the final product of GL being very different from the movie he wanted to make.

 

[Tobias]

But that just reinforces my point. Singer DID have a very definitive vision for SR, and WB supported him. It's a shame it was met with lukewarm reaction,

I have to disagree.

Singer did not have a vision - he only had an interpretation of a vision - Donner's vision.

In places a slavishly embarrassing copy of what had been done much better almost 30 years earlier. SR was way too often derivative of what had come before and, as such, inferior to the original. IMO.

Would that Singer had had a vision. Things might have turned out a lot different.

What worked in 1978 was never going to work again in 2006. Singer tried to fit a square peg into a round hole. It was doomed from the get-go IMO.



-

 

[Heretic]

For some reason, the movie studios think that comic characters have origins, and then their adventures stop.

I simply do not need to see Superman or Batman's origin ever again, and anyone on earth who doesn't already know Batman and Superman's origins will likely not bother to see their movies anyway. Heck, WB is already planning to reboot Batman for NO reason at all. They could simply hire a new director and actor and make a new movie about Batman fighting the Penguin or something, without ever acknowledging, but still respecting the existence of, the previous films. Why can't Man of Steel just have a new threat come to earth that Superman has to fight. I don't care about what Lois and her new husband are doing...they hardly matter when Darkseid is destroying the entire planet.

 

[conan69]

WB isnt going to reboot Batman, they said reinvent.

The character will most likely continue already established and doing his thing in Gotham.