Homecoming Who should reboot villain be? (Poll Version) - Part 1

But here's a good question, how would a Mysterio who just robs banks be interesting enough to carry movie? What are the stakes of the film, what happens if Spider-Man fails to stop Mysterio? The banks are insured and the money is marked, frankly if that is all Mysterio is doing, Spidey should let the cops handle him. I also feel Mysterio never made sense as a bank robber, any money he got from robbing banks would not cover the expenses he is creating with his special effects tech.

How do you build up towards a climax and have material for a 3 act film, if Mysterio just robs banks for 2 hours?

People keep on saying they don't want a sympathetic villain for the sequel, but it seems like they don't want a truly evil either, so what's left, a rather generic criminal? An evil villain is unsympathetic, some generic criminal is just forgettable. A mind breaker Mysterio is at least a scary prospect, a generic criminal just seems like a low stakes affair, more suited for a filler episode of a TV show, not a cinematic experience.

Also let's face it, most Spidey villains have a grudge against him and want revenge on him. In Mysterio's second appearance, he was using mind games to trick Spidey into revealing his secret identity.

To me the thing that is interesting about Mysterio is that he psychological foe, not a physical one, but if he doesn't bother targeting Spidey on psychological, he just seems far less interesting, his M.O is not being used to its fullest.

But maybe I am being too quick judge, in your opinion how would a bank robbing Mysterio be compelling enough to carry a movie?
In his quest for fame and to make a name for himself, Mysterio takes out a contract from the Kingpin to pulff a series of "impossible heists". He appears as a semingly unstoppable threat, baffling the police force and instilling a reign of fear over the city as his crime wave continues. His final target is scorp, whose technology could prove devastating in the wrong hands. Now it's up to Spider-man to stop him once and for all!

I've seen plenty of complaints about how villain plots are too similar these days. That's what makes Spidey so special. His bad guys are on a smaller, more unique scale. They don't want to rule/destroy the world they just either want to get rich fast, get revenge, or are just plain crazy. The world doesn't half to be at stake for a compelling story and final battle.
 
But here's a good question, how would a Mysterio who just robs banks be interesting enough to carry movie? What are the stakes of the film, what happens if Spider-Man fails to stop Mysterio? The banks are insured and the money is marked, frankly if that is all Mysterio is doing, Spidey should let the cops handle him. I also feel Mysterio never made sense as a bank robber, any money he got from robbing banks would not cover the expenses he is creating with his special effects tech.

How do you build up towards a climax and have material for a 3 act film, if Mysterio just robs banks for 2 hours?

People keep on saying they don't want a sympathetic villain for the sequel, but it seems like they don't want a truly evil either, so what's left, a rather generic criminal? An evil villain is unsympathetic, some generic criminal is just forgettable. A mind breaker Mysterio is at least a scary prospect, a generic criminal just seems like a low stakes affair, more suited for a filler episode of a TV show, not a cinematic experience.

Also let's face it, most Spidey villains have a grudge against him and want revenge on him. In Mysterio's second appearance, he was using mind games to trick Spidey into revealing his secret identity.

To me the thing that is interesting about Mysterio is that he psychological foe, not a physical one, but if he doesn't bother targeting Spidey on psychological, he just seems far less interesting, his M.O is not being used to its fullest.

But maybe I am being too quick judge, in your opinion how would a bank robbing Mysterio be compelling enough to carry a movie?

I agree with all of this. I want this film to be a bit smaller in scale than what Marvel Studios' other films have been. While Mysterio should be a legitimate threat, it should ultimate be about Mysterio wanting to make Spider-Man fail in some way, to make Mysterio himself look better in comparision. I want Mysterio to be a villain who due to some kind of jealousy wants to one up Spidey by showcasing Spider-Man's defeat in front of the public, his "audience".
 
imho, they won't go mysterio with doctor strange coming out around the same time.
 
imho, they won't go mysterio with doctor strange coming out around the same time.
Or maybe they'll find a way to tie the two together and change things up? :wow:
 
Given that the Spider-Man movie is coming out the year after Civil War, I feel that Scorpion would be an amazing choice for a villain. It would also be a great way to unveil a different side to J. Jonah Jameson that the movies have not shown before.

A scenario I came up with involves J Jonah Jameson responding to the Registration Act (whether it passes or not) by having a private investigator experimented on as a way to hunt down Spider-Man and reveal his identity. This could also make way for a Kingpin cameo (say JJJ goes to Kingpin for this help).

Extremely unlikely, I know.
 
I am sure if mysterio was picked for this first film or a sequel. They could come up with some good stuff. We do have the grudge thing to go on. And his parlor tricks and mind screwing with his tricks and all. I do not want to fall into same trap as Webb and raimi did. And force connections with pete to drive the he wasn't truly evil bull.

Also I like that scorpion idea above. Yoo. He is another I want to see. And I said it too before. A great way to have jj play a bigger part and get into the thick of things and we could have some great jj spidey scenes.
 
In his quest for fame and to make a name for himself, Mysterio takes out a contract from the Kingpin to pulff a series of "impossible heists". He appears as a semingly unstoppable threat, baffling the police force and instilling a reign of fear over the city as his crime wave continues. His final target is scorp, whose technology could prove devastating in the wrong hands. Now it's up to Spider-man to stop him once and for all!

I've seen plenty of complaints about how villain plots are too similar these days. That's what makes Spidey so special. His bad guys are on a smaller, more unique scale. They don't want to rule/destroy the world they just either want to get rich fast, get revenge, or are just plain crazy. The world doesn't half to be at stake for a compelling story and final battle.


But what kind of character arc does that really provide for Spidey? I think a good villain needs to provide a good character arc for the hero and really we seen the traditional coming of age story for Spidey twice on the big screen already, you need a twist to make it new and interesting at this point. Spider-Man being forced to actively confront his demons and over come them by a villain makes for a stronger story.

Mysterio trying to use Spidey's greatest weakness, his sense of guilt to destroy him, makes for a far powerful film then Mysterio performing random robberies and stealing some MacGuffin from Oscorp. What would the device, why Mysterio's hands be worse then Norman Osborn's for that device, what would happen if Mysterio gets a hold of it, what would he do with it? If he is just performing robberies, why he is inspiring a reign terror? Is he killing people in addition to stealing? Because its hard to have a "reign of terror" with a villain who just steals things. A series of bank robberies are not going to scare the average person that much.

I'm not saying the world has to stake for a compelling film, I'm arguing for a more character based film, if anything, where the stakes are Spider-Man's sanity, though Mysterio being will kill to achieve his goals does raise the stakes for Spidey, if he fails innocent people die. Is there any reason for Mysterio to shy away from bloodshed?

And has he done things like this in the comics, he played some pretty nasty mind games with Daredevil back in 2000, so Mysterio can provide some good set pieces, but I think if he is not willing to go the real distance with Spidey and pull out every nasty trick he can, including crippling psychological. This isn't personal for Mysterio, but anyone knows that attacking the mind and the heart is the best way to deal with a physically superior foe, Mysterio should not be trying to out muscle Spidey, but defeat him by destroying his psyche.

If you want a villain with no real redeeming qualities, he should try to go above and beyond in unlikability and do some really bad stuff, otherwise, what's the point of him being unsympathetic, its hard to engage with a villain who has no redeeming qualities, but doesn't do anything really evil either.
 
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How many solo movies do you think we're getting this time? I think that's an important factor when thinking about how to distribute the villains per film. I think there shouldn't be more than 6 films
 
Well right now I expect rge minium of a trilogy as we seen so far with mcu. And then possibly more solos later after handful of team films.

As for villains. I would stuck to the format of 2 per film. One who is the main head villain. And one who is a minor threat at start of film or during course of the film. Then of course have supporting characters like norman or kingpin pulling the strings of the events of film in the shadows and so forth.
 
But what kind of character arc does that really provide for Spidey? I think a good villain needs to provide a good character arc for the hero and really we seen the traditional coming of age story for Spidey twice on the big screen already, you need a twist to make it new and interesting at this point. Spider-Man being forced to actively confront his demons and over come them by a villain makes for a stronger story.

Spidey's arc in this movie needs to be focused on him and his relationships with friends and mentors, establishing the world in which he lives. Every villain we've gotten has had some close tie to him, I think that's high time for a change.

Mysterio trying to use Spidey's greatest weakness, his sense of guilt to destroy him, makes for a far powerful film then Mysterio performing random robberies and stealing some MacGuffin from Oscorp. What would the device, why Mysterio's hands be worse then Norman Osborn's for that device, what would happen if Mysterio gets a hold of it, what would he do with it? If he is just performing robberies, why he is inspiring a reign terror? Is he killing people in addition to stealing? Because its hard to have a "reign of terror" with a villain who just steals things. A series of bank robberies are not going to scare the average person that much.

He's robbing the most safe institutions in the city, often in broad daylight. He and his gang will hurt/kill anyone in their way and are seemingly unstoppable. He's setting lose horrifying apparitions upon the populous to cause chaos and distractions. I think that's more than enough for a "reign of terror". And as for the "macguffin", he'll be selling a weapon of mass destruction to criminals/terrorists. Surely that's a big enough threat?

I'm not saying the world has to stake for a compelling film, I'm arguing for a more character based film, if anything, where the stakes are Spider-Man's sanity, though Mysterio being will kill to achieve his goals does raise the stakes for Spidey, if he fails innocent people die. Is there any reason for Mysterio to shy away from bloodshed?

No, of course not. He should be completly cold blooded, willing to eliminate anyone in the way of his fame.
And has he done things like this in the comics, he played some pretty nasty mind games with Daredevil back in 2000, so Mysterio can provide some good set pieces, but I think if he is not willing to go the real distance with Spidey and pull out every nasty trick he can, including crippling psychological. This isn't personal for Mysterio, but anyone knows that attacking the mind and the heart is the best way to deal with a physically superior foe, Mysterio should not be trying to out muscle Spidey, but defeat him by destroying his psyche.
The mind games with Spidey are always great, but I think it's far too early for that. It would require Mysterio to know his identity, and I think it's too early to let that cat out of the bag. Keep Beck alive for Sinister 6 later on down the line, then he can go full mind-screwing mode.
If you want a villain with no real redeeming qualities, he should try to go above and beyond in unlikability and do some really bad stuff, otherwise, what's the point of him being unsympathetic, its hard to engage with a villain who has no redeeming qualities, but doesn't do anything really evil either.
I'm all for a scene or two showing just how awful a person Mysterio is. It's very important to convey that all he cares about is himself. He's extremly narcicistic, that's what drives him.
 
Spidey's arc in this movie needs to be focused on him and his relationships with friends and mentors, establishing the world in which he lives. Every villain we've gotten has had some close tie to him, I think that's high time for a change.

Except Mysterio wouldn't have a previous connection to Parker or even a
or even a personal motive against him, Spider-Man would just be a means to an end, a way to ensure his fame by destroying him, that's not personal, that's just a cruel way to achieve impersonal goals, that makes Mysterio more inhuman, then having wrong he wants to avenge against Spidey.

That's like saying Scarecrow is a personal foe of Batman's because he uses psychological attacks against him, Scarecrow doesn't a super personal grudge against Batman.

Psychological attacks are just good tactics, Spidey is stronger then Mysterio, physiological attacks are best weapon he has.


He's robbing the most safe institutions in the city, often in broad daylight. He and his gang will hurt/kill anyone in their way and are seemingly unstoppable. He's setting lose horrifying apparitions upon the populous to cause chaos and distractions. I think that's more than enough for a "reign of terror". And as for the "macguffin", he'll be selling a weapon of mass destruction to criminals/terrorists. Surely that's a big enough threat?

I like some of the elements of the initial campaign Mysterio is engaging in, but I think the end game needs to be better.

Well if he is selling something to some terrorists who might do something bad off screen later, that isn't much of climax, IMO. I have no reason to care about these terrorists, I would rather see Spidey prevent Mysterio from doing something really bad, rather then just having Spidey stopping an arms deal that might lead to bad stuff in the future. Show don't tell, if there is a WMD in the film, show the possibility it will be used right away and make Mysterio responsible for it, so we hate Mysterio, not some random terrorist who comes in at the 11th hour.

You could have Mysterio use a WMD to black mail money out of the city, so he is own villain, not some middle man and he will set it off anyway to become infamous or out of spite that Spidey foiled him. There doesn't need to be a WMD in this film, but there is one, the threat of it being used during the course of the film should be present, not some far off date later.

If he is nasty enough to cause causalities when he is just getting started, why not make him extra nasty and be willing to sacrifice thousands of lives to feed his ego? Again not a WMD is not necessary, but that's what I would want to see if a WMD does appear in the film, make Mysterio the hated villain, not some nameless terrorist.

Like I say, if people really want Mysterio to be a counter point to all the sympathetic villains Spidey villains that have appeared in the movies, then he should go in the opposite direction and really be a nasty character, rather then just a jerk. Venom in the movies was unlikable in the films, but he was just some slimy jerk, he wasn't a really evil villain, he was pretty generic. To me an unsympathetic foe, has to do really unsympathetic things.



No, of course not. He should be completly cold blooded, willing to eliminate anyone in the way of his fame.

Okay, that's fair and a good idea, but how far do you take it. If Mysterio is an unsympathetic, should he be just a jerk or a total psychopathic monster? Both are unsympathetic, the psychopath is far more unsympathetic.

The mind games with Spidey are always great, but I think it's far too early for that. It would require Mysterio to know his identity, and I think it's too early to let that cat out of the bag. Keep Beck alive for Sinister 6 later on down the line, then he can go full mind-screwing mode.

I think Mysterio playing mind games with Spidey in a film that is crowded with other villains, that lacks the time and focus between these two to make such mind games meaningful, it would just seem like a rushed after though.

Besides Mysterio could screw with Spidey despite not knowing who he is. If this Spidey just starting out, Mysterio could use his youthful nativity against him.

Mysterio could kidnap some public official who happens to look a little like Uncle Ben. Spidey braves several traps, but reaches the official. Then Mysterio sets off a bomb and kills the guy right in front of Spidey. That might be the first guy Spidey failed to save since Uncle Ben. Even though its a total stranger, it hits Spidey hard, because it challenges his young and naive world view and Mysterio wastes no time exploiting this to try to use guilt to weaken Spidey's resolve. He send illusions of this man to torment Spidey. Its kinda of a dark story, but again if you want a real sympathetic villain, sometimes you have to go the distance and an truly evil villain can make things a little dark.

I'm all for a scene or two showing just how awful a person Mysterio is. It's very important to convey that all he cares about is himself. He's extremly narcicistic, that's what drives him.

Well like I said this all depends on unsympathetic Mysterio, is he a jerk or a monster? Have him a kick a few dogs to establish his character, but give him a nasty end game, that would result in a fair amount causalities, directly by his hand, that would be a unsympathetic villain.
 
I'd rather see Scorpion and the Vulture before Mysterio. Never really been a big fan of his, Joaquin Phoenix would make a good Quentin Beck though.
 
I want a jacked up Jensen Ackles to play Eddie Brock when he shows up.
 
Not every villain needs or should have a personal connection to pete. Thst should just be the Osborne Conners and brock. The rest. Are more just heated to spidey. And hate he ruins there plans.
 
Connors needs to be on that list of people connected to parker.
 
Given that the Spider-Man movie is coming out the year after Civil War, I feel that Scorpion would be an amazing choice for a villain. It would also be a great way to unveil a different side to J. Jonah Jameson that the movies have not shown before.

A scenario I came up with involves J Jonah Jameson responding to the Registration Act (whether it passes or not) by having a private investigator experimented on as a way to hunt down Spider-Man and reveal his identity. This could also make way for a Kingpin cameo (say JJJ goes to Kingpin for this help).

Extremely unlikely, I know.

I'd like to see him as well. Personally, I'd love to see him used alongside Mysterio as I've always thought that those two would complement each other well. And as you already brought up, both would seem appropriate for dealing with the aftermath of Civil War.
 
Given that the Spider-Man movie is coming out the year after Civil War, I feel that Scorpion would be an amazing choice for a villain. It would also be a great way to unveil a different side to J. Jonah Jameson that the movies have not shown before.

A scenario I came up with involves J Jonah Jameson responding to the Registration Act (whether it passes or not) by having a private investigator experimented on as a way to hunt down Spider-Man and reveal his identity. This could also make way for a Kingpin cameo (say JJJ goes to Kingpin for this help).

Extremely unlikely, I know.

Scorpion is powerful, but he never came off as particularly smart or ambitious in the comics, he would make a better second in command then a main villain.
 
Except Mysterio wouldn't have a previous connection to Parker or even a
or even a personal motive against him, Spider-Man would just be a means to an end, a way to ensure his fame by destroying him, that's not personal, that's just a cruel way to achieve impersonal goals, that makes Mysterio more inhuman, then having wrong he wants to avenge against Spidey.

That's like saying Scarecrow is a personal foe of Batman's because he uses psychological attacks against him, Scarecrow doesn't a super personal grudge against Batman.

Psychological attacks are just good tactics, Spidey is stronger then Mysterio, physiological attacks are best weapon he has.




I like some of the elements of the initial campaign Mysterio is engaging in, but I think the end game needs to be better.

Well if he is selling something to some terrorists who might do something bad off screen later, that isn't much of climax, IMO. I have no reason to care about these terrorists, I would rather see Spidey prevent Mysterio from doing something really bad, rather then just having Spidey stopping an arms deal that might lead to bad stuff in the future. Show don't tell, if there is a WMD in the film, show the possibility it will be used right away and make Mysterio responsible for it, so we hate Mysterio, not some random terrorist who comes in at the 11th hour.

You could have Mysterio use a WMD to black mail money out of the city, so he is own villain, not some middle man and he will set it off anyway to become infamous or out of spite that Spidey foiled him. There doesn't need to be a WMD in this film, but there is one, the threat of it being used during the course of the film should be present, not some far off date later.

If he is nasty enough to cause causalities when he is just getting started, why not make him extra nasty and be willing to sacrifice thousands of lives to feed his ego? Again not a WMD is not necessary, but that's what I would want to see if a WMD does appear in the film, make Mysterio the hated villain, not some nameless terrorist.

Like I say, if people really want Mysterio to be a counter point to all the sympathetic villains Spidey villains that have appeared in the movies, then he should go in the opposite direction and really be a nasty character, rather then just a jerk. Venom in the movies was unlikable in the films, but he was just some slimy jerk, he wasn't a really evil villain, he was pretty generic. To me an unsympathetic foe, has to do really unsympathetic things.





Okay, that's fair and a good idea, but how far do you take it. If Mysterio is an unsympathetic, should he be just a jerk or a total psychopathic monster? Both are unsympathetic, the psychopath is far more unsympathetic.



I think Mysterio playing mind games with Spidey in a film that is crowded with other villains, that lacks the time and focus between these two to make such mind games meaningful, it would just seem like a rushed after though.

Besides Mysterio could screw with Spidey despite not knowing who he is. If this Spidey just starting out, Mysterio could use his youthful nativity against him.

Mysterio could kidnap some public official who happens to look a little like Uncle Ben. Spidey braves several traps, but reaches the official. Then Mysterio sets off a bomb and kills the guy right in front of Spidey. That might be the first guy Spidey failed to save since Uncle Ben. Even though its a total stranger, it hits Spidey hard, because it challenges his young and naive world view and Mysterio wastes no time exploiting this to try to use guilt to weaken Spidey's resolve. He send illusions of this man to torment Spidey. Its kinda of a dark story, but again if you want a real sympathetic villain, sometimes you have to go the distance and an truly evil villain can make things a little dark.



Well like I said this all depends on unsympathetic Mysterio, is he a jerk or a monster? Have him a kick a few dogs to establish his character, but give him a nasty end game, that would result in a fair amount causalities, directly by his hand, that would be a unsympathetic villain.
I think we actually agree with each other on most everything except that climax. Mysterio literally holding the entire city hostage would be a great climax, I had just adjusted mine since I've noticed a lot of people complaining about how every Spidey movie always ends with a threat to the whole city. Honestly, after this conversation, I think I actually prefer your version. It really fits with his personality.
Not every villain needs or should have a personal connection to pete. Thst should just be the Osborne Conners and brock. The rest. Are more just heated to spidey. And hate he ruins there plans.
Exactly. Every villain we've gotten has had some close involvement with either Peter and Spidey. That's why I think Mysterio should go first, to break the trend.
 
I think we actually agree with each other on most everything except that climax. Mysterio literally holding the entire city hostage would be a great climax, I had just adjusted mine since I've noticed a lot of people complaining about how every Spidey movie always ends with a threat to the whole city. Honestly, after this conversation, I think I actually prefer your version. It really fits with his personality.

Surely you have heard of Chekhov's Gun, if we have a WMD appear in a movie, people expect there is the threat of it being used during the film, otherwise it is a lot of set up for no real pay off. If there is no real danger of the WMD going off during the course film, I would don't have one. Mysterio being a middle man for some nameless terrorist, takes power away from him and gives it to some nameless terrorist, Mysterio is not the real threat, the terrorist, the terrorist is the one we should hate, not Mysterio, making the terrorist morally responsible for how the WMD is used takes power away from Mysterio and gives it someone we have no reason to care about.

And really how often has a villain really tried to destroy the city during the climax? Dr. Octopus was going to destroy the city by mistake, Lizard was going to turn people into lizard men, which isn't destroying the city and Electro wanted to steal the city's power grid, because he designed it and was taking back what he created. None of those actions are as vile as Mysterio destroying the city due to vanity or spite.

Venom, Sandman and the various Goblins were never a city wide threat, so its not like every villain tried to destroy the city, so its not super common. I'm not saying Mysterio has to destroy the city, but if a WMD appears in the film, Mysterio should be the one to use it, not some terrorist who might use it down the road. Besides Spider-Man is about saving lives and preventing people, so stopping Mysterio from committing mass murder is an affirmation of his mission. If there is no WMD in the film, there are other ways to make Mysterio unpleasant, but if a WMD appears, Mysterio should be the one who uses it. Otherwise, the WMD is just a dull mcguffin and it should be left out in favor Mysterio inflicting far more personal cruelties on others.


Spider-Man stopping some random arms deal seems like such an anti climax, its a scene that should happen in the middle of the film, not at the end, its not nearly exciting to be a climax.

Exactly. Every villain we've gotten has had some close involvement with either Peter and Spidey. That's why I think Mysterio should go first, to break the trend.

But how are we defining personal in regards to heroes and villains? Joker in the Dark Knight had no personal connection with Batman, but things became personal between due to Joker's cruel actions inflicting personal tragedy on Batman, Joker had no idea was and didn't know that killing Rachel made things personal between them. So if Mysterio tries to inflict personal tragedies on Spidey for very impersonal and selfish reason, does that make him a personal foe, despite the fact they never met before? Inflicting personal tragedies on Spidey is just smart tactics and really drives home how evil Mysterio really is.

Even with Electro in ASM2, it was was only personal on side, so I don't consider him a very personal foe and let's face it, Electro is not a very well developed character in the comics, I don't consider that Electro a very personal foe. According to that logic, anyone with a grudge against Spidey is a personal foe.
 
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Totally let's change it up before we get personal villain again.
 
Totally let's change it up before we get personal villain again.

But does a villain who the hero has never met before, but uses psychological warfare to try to break the hero's spirit count as a personal foe?

Deny Mysterio the ability to use psychological warfare and you take away the best weapon he has. Mysterio is not as powerful as Spider-Man, so the best tool he has is williness to use any cruel trick to win. Mysterio is an adult and Spider-Man would still be a child at this point, Mysterio relying on smoke bombs and generic illusions makes him far less dangerous, Mystery trying to destroy a teenage Spider-Man's fragile psyche is far more ruthless then just then just sticking him in a haunted house or something.

If Mysterio is unsympatheticin this film, would he be just some jerk or a real monster? If Mysterio is more then just a jerk shouldn't he be totally ruthless? Why wouldn't he use psychological warfare to win?

Really if Mysterio is just a jerk, how he would he and his rivalry with Spider-Man be compelling at all? Why deny Mysterio the ability to use every nasty trick in the book to win? You are tying his hands behind his back if you don't let him pull out all the stops to win.
 

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