Discussion in 'Batman World' started by anrrd_2, May 13, 2010.
I'm surprised that some *****e hasn't picked the last option yet.
This is a matter of quality and influence over quantity and imitations. Batman: The Dark Knight Returns has been in continuous publication since 1986. That's YEARS, DECADES of reprints of that ONE story. The impact and influence of that ONE story on the comic book world, and on the Batman franchise and superhero franchises, overshadows hundreds of other Batman stories and influences many as well.
Batman: The Dark Knight Returns revolutionized comics. It redesigned the graphic novel in comic book size with each issue being 48-pages, with square binding, high quality paper stock, and watercolor painting. Dark Knight Returns introduced the Dark Knight format, later called the "prestige format". It was also the first to be collected into a TPB. It brought Batman back closer to the way Bill Finger and Bob Kane created him as a fierce vigilante wanted by the law. It even brought back the short bat-eared cowl and bat-emblem without the yellow oval, it went back to the black and grey look of the costume without all the blue. The heavy use of gadgets and bat-vehicles which had been toned way down in the Bronze Age. The scope of it is huge. Miller delves deeply into each characters soul and allows the reader a unfiltered look into their thoughts. It makes use of an internal monologue replacing the narrator in the story so the character's thoughts and feelings are counterpoint to his actions. Characters cussing in a Batman comic. A female Robin. The utility belt with functional pockets instead of those little tubes.
It's extremely influential. The votes to kill Jason Todd in A Death in the Family were obviously influenced by Jason Todd being dead in Dark Knight Returns. Frank Miller changed the way Alan Moore looked at Batman and the Joker, influencing Alan Moore to create the Killing Joke. Grant Morrison said that Arkham Asylum "was intended as a critique of the '80s interpretation of Batman as violent, driven and borderline psychopathic." That '80s interpretation of Batman comes from Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns. So if there was no Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, there would be no Batman: Arkham Asylum. Batman: The Killing Joke, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Green Arrow: The Long Bow Hunters, Batman: The Cult, etc., wouldn't have existed. If Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns and Batman: Year One were never released the state of Batman comics would be stuck in the Bronze Age. Jeph Loeb is an obvious Miller imitator. Long Halloween/Dark Victory are obviously influenced by Miller's Batman: Year One with Miller's creation The Roman and his mafia family, Harvey Dent prior to becoming Two-Face, Captain James Gordon, Selina Kyle showing up. And in Hush -- a trenchcoat-wearing face-bandaged Harvey Dent, a kiss with Selena, a fight with Superman, almost-killing of the Joker . . . sound familiar? That's Miller's Dark Knight Returns. Dark Knight Returns introduced the most mainstream superheroes (Superman and Batman previously viewed by the general public as the most wholesome superheroes in Super Friends, the Batman TV show starring Adam West and the Superman movies starring Christopher Reeve) in a story with very adult themes, situations and language.
In Batman Begins when he fell into the hole when he was a kid and was frightened by the bats: That comes from Dark Knight Returns, which Denny O'Neil was influenced by to write The Man Who Falls story. The Batmobile as a tank concept originates in Dark Knight Returns. Batman using a spear gun originates in Dark Knight Returns.
Batman wearing body armor in the movies was also influenced by Dark Knight Returns.
Sam Hamm said in Comics Interview Super Special, "The first issue of Dark Knight had just come out when I was first discussing the screenplay. I went into the comics store to see what was going on in the field then, and I was pretty staggered! There was every reason to get excited. Dark Knight in the tone. Nightmarish Gotham City. There are a couple of literal swipes from Dark Knight -- the notion that he wears the emblem on his chest as a target, essentially, because he's trying to draw fire away from his head. There are a couple of other bits like that."
Danny Elfman said on the Batman special features DVD, "After I finished Beetlejuice I got a call from Tim saying, 'I'm doing this thing you might be interested in it.' He sent me the Dark Knight comics. That was much more up my alley than what I had known of the original Batman comics as a kid."
Micheal Keaton said on an A&E channel documentary, "Tim Burton was really into the Frank Miller thing and knew it and understood it far more than I did. He had the look of it and the tone of it."
Tim Burton said in the book Burton on Burton "The success of those graphic novels made our ideas more acceptable."
Dark Knight Returns influenced Jim Lee to join the comic book world.
"Back when I was in college from 1982 to 1986, I grew bored and disenchanted with comics, barely perusing my subscriptions when I went home for various holiday breaks. Frank Miller changed all that in 1986 when the Dark Knight Returns blew my mind and lit up my retinas.
I haven't been the same since.
My passion for creating comics comes from this one book and I've embarrassed Frank countless times by repeating this exact same story to him. Being fortunate enough to have as passionate fans, I know how it feels to be told similar tales so I hold back and try and act normal around him now so I don't freak him out. But he is ****ing Frank Miller, man."
Jubilee and the Stephenie Brown Robin and Hit-Girl were obviously influenced by Carrie Kelley.
In 2007 Geoff Johns even planned to have Carrie Kelley herself in the Booster Gold series, "This book is time and space, and space includes the Multiverse," explained Johns, Earth-31 is the Dark Knight Universe, and Dan Jurgens featured her on the original version of the cover.
But it was changed and she didn't appear in the series because Frank Miller didn't approve. Frank Miller said "I would rather they didn't because I love the character, so I feel very territorial about her."
Alex Ross had an obvious homage to Carrie Kelley in Kingdom Come.
Dark Knight Returns certainly influenced Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come is the Dark Knight Returns for Superman - Superman retiring and then returning to fighting crime years later older with grey hair and crime has gotten really bad and Superman influencing others to fight crime and trying to teach the younger generation, just as the Dark Knight Returns Batman had with the Sons of Batman gang.
Even Adam Hughes has done a tribute to Carrie Kelley.
Carrie Kelley and the Dark Knight Returns story which she appears in have certainly had a huge impact and influence. She's the most influential Robin since Dick Grayson started the side-kick craze in 1940.
You are confusing the impact of the character of Carrie Kelley and the impact of the graphic novel itself.
In that book, it could have been any character as Robin, and the story itself would have been just as seminal. She was nothing "genius" or amazing. Just a sassy teenage girl who wanted to be Robin.
I'm sorry, but one story being reprinted over and over does not out weigh the characters of Dick and Tim being in constant publication in different, new stories for decades.
The Dark Knight Returns is not in "constant publication". It is reprinted every 5 or so years. Tim Drake's Robin was in constant publication, with multiple appearances each month for more than 15 years. Dick Grayson, even longer. Their impact is FAR greater. Dick Grayson was the REASON Carrie Kelley even existed in the first place. He is the "holy grail" of side kicks...the first, the original. And as a character, Tim has been much more fleshed out than Carrie Kelley was. But again, that is to be expected...he's been around for almost 20 years and in 100's of stories.
(also, is there really a need to post all these pictures of her with each post?)
What influence has Tim done tho? I mean yeah i voted Robin for this thread, but when it comes to an influence what has he really done? The character is popular ofcourse, and hasn't had the bad luck of getting destroyed completely by bad writers or anything, but Man-bat does have a point with the influence aspect if you ask me.
It's not always about influence....sometimes it comes to quality of character.
Tim has been fleshed out and in many people's opinion, is the better character.
Tim Drake's character has had influence in popular culture. The Dick Grayson character in Batman Forever was clearly influenced by Tim Drake. He changed the way the character of Robin was looked at. He wasn't an orphan or someone that needed Batman. He's someone that Batman needed. He flipped this convention on its head and if you can't see his importance to the lore, I don't know what to say.
Well this is a poll about who is our favorite Robin. Man-Bat just pointed out why he found Carrie the best and why she's so influencial to the mythos.
Well alot of people think X or Y things. This is really subjetive which is the best out there, but influence is an actual fact.
I don't know. Joel made the Robin way too whiny and selffish... Damn those teen hormones!
Was his age ever said? If he was adopted by Bruce legally, then yes he was momentarily an orphan. Carrie Kelley was never an orphan.
Same goes for Kelley tho. Wheres Dennis O'Neill had to make the fans approve of the new Robin by having Dick Grayson approve him. (Remember that it is the Dick Grayson fans that killed Jason) And Tim proved himself by helping Batman againts Two-Face to prove himself.
Carrie is in the mutant fight and rescues Batman, she kinda approved herself by being at the right place and doing the right thing, she knew first aid from girl scouts and thus Batman (while alot of times threatening to fire her) proved herself to Batman. She became essantual to Batman.
Oh it was a good way of justifying the new Robin withouth pissing off the Dick Grayson fans again, but at the end of the day we're just talking about how Dennis O'Neill found a way to not repeat the same mistake done with Jason Todd.
Nice try at a come back but I do show impact and influence of Carrie Kelley in my post as well as explaining the impact and influence of everything else from Dark Knight Returns.
If it were Jason Todd in that story like all the other Batman comics at the time or some other boy as just another Dick Grayson replacement, another carbon-copy of Dick Grayson's Robin, as Jason Todd was at the time, then it definitely wouldn't have been as seminal at all. It's the fact that it's a girl Robin with her own personality and style of speech and not a Batman junior at all, not a carbon-copy of Dick Grayson, that helped make Dark Knight Returns so groundbreaking, original and influential. She's a very different concept for Robin than what anyone was use to. Her parents were not killed, she isn't a ward of Bruce Wayne's or adopted, she isn't a junior Batman. She's not a Batman-wannabe. Carrie has her own personality, her own life, she is very modern, she is very different than Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian. She's refreshingly different. The most radical departure from the norm, the female Robin, works because she's a spin on the classic formula.
The impact and influence of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which features Carrie Kelley, out weighs hundreds of stories featuring Tim and Dick. Tim and Dick appearing in more stories does not make them better characters. It makes them overexposed and milked to death.
It's in constant, continuous publication. It's never gone out of print, because it continues to be a big seller. They are still reprinting it. They've even done a huge sized Absolute Edition of that story featuring Carrie as Robin. They've never done that for any of the hundreds of stories featuring Tim.
She's the most influential Robin since Dick Grayson started the side-kick craze in 1940. Tim Drake has a lot more stories written about him than Carrie Kelley, surely, and that doesn't make him a better character. As a character Carrie Kelley entertains me, Tim Drake on the other hand is the most boring character. He's been too fleshed out and overexposed to the nth degree and been milked to death.
Is there really a need for you to end each post with an "-R" and have an avatar with a bunch of pictures of Tim Drake and "Master Tim" accompanying your every post? No, you have that because he's obviously your favorite Robin and you just like to post an "-R" on every post. I've posted a bunch of pictures of Carrie Kelley on this thread because she's my favorite Robin and the best Robin to me. It all comes down to preference.
I forgot there even was a Robin in DKR.
This thread surely reminded you.
If you read TDKR you can't forget girl Robin....
Sure you can.
This might sound bad but i kinda liked it when jason todd was killed. It added so much more drama to the batman story that he wasnt in time to save him..... sometimes you gotta kill the good guys to keep the story interesting.
All the cool stuff you just said about how seminal a character and amazingly memorable and influential Carrie Kelley was, was just, I don't know a little discredited?? By this.
Can't recall anyone forgetting that there was a Tim Drake or a Dick Grayson.
And in terms of not wanted to be a "Batman wannabe", she kinda was, and was definitely a Robin wannabe...just look at her look at Jason Todd's costume.
And as for the guy who said he's glad Jason died, me too. That's what made his influence so great in the mythos...his death rocked the comics harder than almost any other character's in the comics.
perhaps i should redo this little poll to include ms. Kelly? I really didnt think her absence would cause such a fuss...
You should include Boy (Return of BW #1) too!
Really thats your argument? I mean honestly? You're going to cling on how someone who forgot Kelley will make your argument any better?
Look at this way. How many people do you think... who don't regularly buy comics, but got trades such as Watchmen or TDKR, know about Carrie than Tim Drake? Sure Tim Drake was in BTAS cartoon, but still how many trades do you think people have with Tim Drake Robin, compared to say: Dick Grayson or the 2 trades which Kelley is in.
I mean, we're all cool for each liking their own Robin, but you can't deny the facts how much impact Carrie put. Especially the thoughts Dennis O'Neill must have had on "okay... How to make the 3rd Robin into a success?"
One person out of thousands is nothing. That one persons comment was disputed by this:
Of course the majority of people who have read Dark Knight Returns can remember the girl Robin in it.
Carrie Kelley was never a Batman wannabe. She didn't want to be Batman, she wanted to be the new Robin, and she became the new Robin.
Tim Drake was definitely a Robin wannabe.
And he also became a Batman wannabe. When Batman disappeared, he didnt hesitate to put on the cape and cowl.
Tim Drake's even calling himself "Tim Wayne."
Tim Drake. Dick set the standard, and Tim raised the bar.
Actually Man-Bat he stopped with the Tim Wayne nonsense, that was pretty much him on his highest when it came to post-Bruce's-death stress he could manage.
Well, that's good. Jason was adopted by Bruce, too, and doesn't call himself Wayne.
TDKR was hugely influential, but that doesnt mean that Carrie was just because she was in it. I mean she could be, but not because she was in TDKR.
Anyway, i think the point of this thread is which Robin we like best, not who really is the best, because there is no way of judging that. So i think its pointless to compare the number of issues each one has appeared, or how influential those issues were, etc. If anything, Dick is the most influential because he's the one that all the others are based on.
My personal favorite is the one at the end of The Dark Knight Strikes Again.
I'm not saying Carrie was influential just because she was in Dark Knight Returns, I'm saying she was influential because she's a girl with her own personality and style and not a Batman junior at all, and not a carbon-copy of Dick Grayson. She's a very different concept for Robin than what anyone was use to. Her parents were not killed, she isn't a ward of Bruce Wayne's or adopted, she isn't a junior Batman. She's not a Batman-wannabe. Carrie has her own personality, her own life, she is very modern, she is very different than Dick, Jason, etc. She's refreshingly different. The most radical departure from the norm, the female Robin, works because she's a spin on the classic formula.
Yeah, I was never interested in getting into a Robin debate in the first place but I will defend my favorite Robin.
Absolutely. Dick Grayson started the whole side-kick craze in comic books in the first place.
The most known Robin is Dick Grayson. Beyond that, the next to be named would probably be Tim Drake (if anyone) in the general public's mind.
Carrie Kelley would probably be the lowest on that list. A female Robin is probably unknown to many.
Tim isn't a Batman wannabe. He's actually said at times that he didn't want to become Batman. He didn't even really want to become Robin originally, he just felt that someone had to do it, so he would. How can you say that Carrie Kelley wasn't a wannabe? She was an unsanctioned version of Robin. That's a wannabe who was made Robin by Batman.
Tim was the only Robin to be adopted by Bruce Wayne, hence the name change. Jason and Dick were only Bruce's wards, not his sons.
Bruce considers Alfred as his father, nothing legal to do here. Dick most definatly considers Bruce as his father.