The Amazing Spider-Man 2 Who would be the best MJ?

[Vid Electricz]

There are a number of ways I could respond to your comments, but they're even more 'brazen and rude' than my other comments (which actually aren't that rude, although they ARE accurate based on your own statements and demonstrated attitude), so I'm going to hold my tongue and move on.

At any rate, Shailene still has the role, and, if we want to get right down to brass tacks, is therefore the 'best MJ' for this franchise as determined by those involved directly in it.

I'm guessing that was meant for sl500jazz...

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Yes, it was, and I edited my comments after-the-fact to reflect that by directly quoting him.

 

[sl500jazz]

^

Someone gets it!!!!!

As much as I went through the whole "Gwen and MJ have to be different" argument, it really comes down to this...

Webb gave us 616 Gwen. Does anyone disagree?

Then he should give us 616 MJ!

Thanks t:

I do think that most would agree that (hair and skirts aside) Webb's Gwen is closest to the intelligent, sweet, pretty, and "vanilla" 616 Gwen (particularly the way that she has been depicted in some of the very romanticized flashbacks) than any other incarnation of the character, with some of Ultimate's plot thrown in. It's just a bonus that the actress somewhat resembles the character that she is playing. Bryce Dallas Howard also resembled 616 Gwen, but imo really wasn't depicted as being anything like the character (or at least as much as Stone). She was just a useless filler character in SM3.

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................., so I'm going to hold my tongue and move on.

At any rate, Shailene still has the role, and, if we want to get right down to brass tacks, is therefore the 'best MJ' for this franchise as determined by those involved directly in it.

Fine. I've said my piece and you've said yours, and we're not going to convince each other. You can believe whatever you want to believe. Let's just move on and agree to disagree.

Anyway, we really do not know for a fact what Webb will do with the character. Anything could happen, and I'm optimistic that he'll figure out what works best with or without Shailene. And I doubt that she'll ever be dropped based on what some people may think of her physical appearance.

 

[DigificWriter]

Even if specific details about the character change in the future, the type of character they want their MJ to be isn't likely to change, especially if Shailene retains it through the production of TASM3.

 

[Vid Electricz]

Thanks t:

I do think that most would agree that (hair and skirts aside) Webb's Gwen is closest to the intelligent, sweet, pretty, and "vanilla" 616 Gwen (particularly the way that she has been depicted in some of the very romanticized flashbacks) than any other incarnation of the character, with some of Ultimate's plot thrown in. It's just a bonus that the actress somewhat resembles the character that she is playing. Bryce Dallas Howard also resembled 616 Gwen, but imo really wasn't depicted as being anything like the character.

If you go back and actually read any comics from the time of her appearance in the 60's, to her death in the 70's, you'll see that TASM Gwen resembles her in appearance only (blonde hair and skirts to be exact, as Emma Stone looks nothing like the buxom figure with a 26 inch waist that the drawing shows).

616 Gwen was not sassy, bold, sarcastic, assertive or understanding... which is exactly what TASM Gwen is. She was petty, insecure, soft-spoken and often jealous. Like I said, for many, aesthetics rule.

 

[sl500jazz]

If you go back and actually read any comics from the time of her appearance in the 60's, to her death in the 70's, you'll see that TASM Gwen resembles her in appearance only (blonde hair and skirts to be exact, as Emma Stone looks nothing like the buxom figure with a 26 inch waist that the drawing shows).

616 Gwen was not sassy, bold, sarcastic, assertive or understanding... which is exactly what TASM Gwen is. She was petty, insecure, soft-spoken and often jealous. Like I said, for many, aesthetics rule.

lol. This is something that we'll never agree on. First of all, apart from the 'idealized' figure (which almost every female comic book character is drawn with regardless of the way she is written), Emma Stone's facial features are almost a dead ringer for Gwen's. The hairstyle and clothing choice adds to that effect.

And for the most part, I didn't find TASM Gwen to be particularly sassy, sarcastic, or flippant. She came across as being the very wholesome, faithful, trusting, relationship-ready,pretty, intelligent, and sweet girl next door from the comics. Also Gwen from the comics wasn't particularly soft-spoken -she had her moments- and any insecurities that she may have had is something that developed later in her and Peter's relationship (which we may see in TASM2 or 3). Granted some aspects of Ultimate MJ (who is similar to 616 Gwen) were added to the character (high school student, knowledge of Peter's secrets, even some of the assertiveness), but the character's signature qualities (the Gwen "archetype") was left intact.

 

[JOE]

"No, I know your name. I just want to make sure you know your name."

 

[Oscorp]

Emma Stone was the best thing about TASM if you ask me. So great!

 

[Vid Electricz]

lol. This is something that we'll never agree on. First of all, apart from the 'idealized' figure (which almost every female comic book character is drawn with regardless of the way she is written)

Yes, my posting that picture was obviously satirizing the fanboys who constantly post actor to panel comparisons, (as though they mean anything) to demonstrate how silly it is. I've brought up many, many, many times how all woman were (and still are to a large extent) drawn as the same idealized, male-fantasy. Good, so we agree that it's pointless to compare them.

Emma Stone's facial features are almost a dead ringer for Gwen's. The hairstyle and clothing choice adds to that effect.

D'oh! Didn't we just go over how women are all drawn as interchangeable, and generically beautiful? Again, aside from the blonde hair, I don't see any more resemblance between the comic book drawing of Gwen and Stone than I do the comic book drawing of Mary Jane and Woodley (Same goes for Garfield, Iffans, Dehaan, etc...)

And for the most part, I didn't find TASM Gwen to be particularly sassy, sarcastic, or flippant.

No one said flippant, but she was sassy and bold, to be sure. Whereas Gwen in the comics wasn't. Gwen's personality in TASM was more akin to Emma Stone's actual personality.

"No, I know your name. I just want to make sure you know your name."

616 Gwen would never act this way. In fact, she bullied Peter early on. That's actually more like a zinger Mary Jane would have thrown at Peter.

She came across as being the very wholesome, faithful, trusting, relationship-ready,pretty, intelligent, and sweet girl next door from the comics. Also Gwen from the comics wasn't particularly soft-spoken -she had her moments- and any insecurities that she may have had is something that developed later in her and Peter's relationship (which we may see in TASM2 or 3)

Nah, she was pretty jealous and insecure from the get-go. She didn't have too much of a personality and existed mostly just to be Peter's girlfriend.


Granted some aspects of Ultimate MJ (who is similar to 616 Gwen) were added to the character (high school student, knowledge of Peter's secrets, even some of the assertiveness), but the character's signature qualities (the Gwen "archetype") was left intact.

What is the "Gwen archetype", pray tell? Ultimate Spider-Man, TASM and Spider-Man loves Mary Jane all did a fantastic job of building on and improving the character of Gwen Stacy, giving her a real personality beyong "vanilla love interest" as was her station in the 616 universe.

I'd argue that those same two titles also did the same for Mary Jane, who, while certainly having more personailty than Gwen, was often relegated to "sexy firebug" or some other ridiculous, lazy descriptor as a substitute for any actual character traits ("Girl next door", "Bombshell")

 

[fuflipflops]

this is interesting

 

[Any Carolina]

Spoiler

 

[Any Carolina]

 

[fuflipflops]

anyone besides marina ruy barbosa, this chick can't act and is prejudiced on top of it all.

 

[Any Carolina]

Spoiler

 

[Any Carolina]

anyone besides marina ruy barbosa, this chick can't act and is prejudiced on top of it all.

Agree, only posted the photos because she is beautiful and I think they should continue with Shailene Woodley.

 

[DigificWriter]

Any Carolina: I can appreciate you trying to be clever, but please stop pic-spamming this thread. It contributes NOTHING WHATSOEVER to this discussion, such as it is.

 

[Any Carolina]

Stop pic-spamming this thread, please. It contributes NOTHING WHATSOEVER to this discussion, such as it is.

I just think that Shailene Woodley continues and this discussion does not have much of a purpose, but if that drives you nuts, I apologize peopl.

 

[JOE]

Gwen is more conservative. MJ needs to be less conservative. Simple as that.

 

[Green Goblin]

Surely whoever they cast could not be as bad as Dunst?

 

[DigificWriter]

I just think that Shailene Woodley continues and this discussion does not have much of a purpose, but if that drives you nuts, I apologize peopl.

You missed the edit I did to my post.

I can understand trying to be clever, but, as I said, pic-spamming the thread isn't really the best way to convey your point and doesn't do anything to add to the discussion.

For the record, I agree with you that this thread is really unnecessary right now because Shailene has made it clear herself that the role is still hers until/unless she's unable to fill it due to other commitments (something we won't actually know for at least another year), but there are better ways to get your point across than by pic-spamming, which just makes you look silly.

 

[Super Jim]

lol. This is something that we'll never agree on. First of all, apart from the 'idealized' figure (which almost every female comic book character is drawn with regardless of the way she is written), Emma Stone's facial features are almost a dead ringer for Gwen's. The hairstyle and clothing choice adds to that effect.

And for the most part, I didn't find TASM Gwen to be particularly sassy, sarcastic, or flippant. She came across as being the very wholesome, faithful, trusting, relationship-ready,pretty, intelligent, and sweet girl next door from the comics. Also Gwen from the comics wasn't particularly soft-spoken -she had her moments- and any insecurities that she may have had is something that developed later in her and Peter's relationship (which we may see in TASM2 or 3). Granted some aspects of Ultimate MJ (who is similar to 616 Gwen) were added to the character (high school student, knowledge of Peter's secrets, even some of the assertiveness), but the character's signature qualities (the Gwen "archetype") was left intact.

I whole heartedly agree...

First, just because female characters are often depicted in a certain way doesn't mean an actress will look like the comic version. For example, Shaelene didn't look like 616 MJ from the comic, nor did Dunst for that matter. But Emma perfectly pulled off the look. Sure you could say take any actress, die her hair blonde, pull it back with a ribbon and you've got Gwen, but that's not 100% accurate. Can't we all just agree that Emma looks very much like the incarnation of Gwen from the comic?

And yes, Emma could have been a fabulous MJ. We've seen her as a redhead before and many of us always thought that she would have been really good for that role, but she was cast as she was and if anything she is so good at this role of Gwen that it is causing all of these problems, including this thread! So it's all Emma's fault that Shaelene was a horrible choice for MJ!

Next is the personality and character traits. Ok, the comic version had the following:

- A science major who seems to appreciate Peter's intellectual personality.

Check, Emma's Gwen has this in spades!

- She was known as the 'beauty queen'.

Check, Emma's popular Gwen, who was "dating" (or at least doing homework with) Flash, the jock, could be considered equivalent of the 'beauty queen'.

- She had issues with Peter when her father died.

Check, Emma's Gwen relayed her concern about her father strapping that gun on his belt and being put in harm's way. Sure, the difference is that movie Gwen didn't 'blame' Peter, but her concern of her father was definitely an important character trait.

Some have tried to say that Emma's Gwen was "sassy" and "sarcastic" and tried to use the one line of 'What is your name'/'No I know your name, I just want to know if you know your name'. Not sure if I would agree that this one-liner, or anything Emma/Gwen said made her come off as sarcastic. Sarcastic is defined as 'sharp, bitter and cuting'. No, I would not classify Emma's Gwen in this way. Now sassy... This one is defined in a couple of ways. One is 'rude' or 'disrespectful', and no Emma's Gwen didn't portray that quality. Another definition is 'stylish' and yes, Emma's Gwen is stylish, but so was the comicbook Gwen. The last definition is 'lively' and 'spirited' or 'jaunty', which means 'Having a buoyant or self-confident air' and yes, both Emma's Gwen and comicbook Gwen have this trait. Remember, at first comicbook Gwen was put off that Peter was ignoring her since she was the poular, lively, spirited girl.

Also one important point is that they of course want us to like movie Gwen, so of course they are not going to give her any bad traits.

Now, can we all agree that Emma's Gwen is not being portrayed as Ultimate Gwen, the punk rock girl who would pull a knife on a bully at school?

Now lets be honest. Normally the way a comicbook character looks is intended to portray which version of the character is being used. Without a doubt Emma's Gwen is the comicbook Gwen that most of us love (hate, hate, hate Ultimate Gwen)! So Emma's Gwen has the look and many of the important character traits of 616 Gwen, so that's obviously which version they went with.

And as I've been saying all along, since MJ and Gwen need to be different, since we've been given 616 Gwen then please give us 616 MJ!

 

[WarriorDreamer]

I think 616 MJ is most famous and well known by general audience and then Ultimate. Unfortunately for non comic book readers though, the Raimi version is also one of the most well known versions of the character. Many felt she poorly communicated the character. If she was supposed to be the 616 Mary Jane and Shailene is supposed to be Ultimate, they did a bad job with Raimi MJ, on all accounts.

I think what sl500jazz was trying to say was that Vid Electricz insistence on Mary Jane being Ultimate MJ/ novel MJ is no different than sl500jazz's insistence on her being 616 MJ. It's just that one happens to have come first and is more well known while the other came much later. Any claims that the 616 character herself is sexist should be taken up with Stan Lee himself.

The same thing could be said that Flash Thompson is a sterotypical/ dated/ sexist character the way he is portrayed in mainstream. Would it make a good movie if Flash was more of a bookworm/ subdued/ mouse-ish character? Yeah of course they could still make a good movie. But would it be as fun changing his character and his famous role in Peter's life into someone completely different? Hmmm. Perhaps not.

 

[Vid Electricz]

I think 616 MJ is most famous and well known by general audience and then Ultimate. Unfortunately for non comic book readers though, the Raimi version of also one of the most well known versions of the character. Many felt she poorly communicated the character. If she was supposed to be the 616 Mary Jane and Shailene is supposed to be Ultimate, they did a bad job with Raimi MJ, on all accounts.

I think what sl500jazz was trying to say was that Vid Electricz insistence on Mary Jane being Ultimate MJ/ book MJ is no different than sl500jazz's insistence on her being 616 MJ. It's just that one happens to have come first and is more well known while the other came much later. Any claims that the 616 character herself is sexist should be taken up with Stan Lee himself.

The same thing could be said that Flash Thompson is a sterotypical/ dated/ sexist character the way he is portrayed in mainstream. Would it make a good movie if Flash was more of a bookworm/ subdued/ mouse-ish character? Yeah of course they could still make a good movie. But would it be as fun changing his character and his famous role in Peter's life into someone completely different? Hmmm. Perhaps not.

No. I've never "insisted" or even implied that I desired any such thing. In fact, I think it's a useless endeavour to get caught up in trying to define a character as "616" or "Ultimate" (let alone using lazy catch-all descriptors like "bombshell" or "bookworm"). I merely noted that there have been various interpretations of the character that didn't rely on "hotness" or "sexiness", *shudder* as being a characteristic that defined of Mary Jane, rather, they expanded and built upon the character, giving her a real personality rather than resting on a lazy, childish archetype.

 

[WarriorDreamer]

No. I've never "insisted" or even implied that I desired any such thing. In fact, I think it's a useless endeavour to get caught up in trying to define a character as "616" or "Ultimate" (let alone using lazy catch-all descriptors like "bombshell" or "bookworm"). I merely noted that there have been various interpretations of the character that didn't rely on "hotness" or "sexiness", *shudder* as being a characteristic that defined of Mary Jane, rather, they expanded and built upon the character, giving her a real personality rather than resting on a lazy, childish archetype.

So a character having sex appeal is really that offensive to you is it? How about if Flash was portrayed as a meek person, do you think it would be just as interesting?

 

[Vid Electricz]

So a character having sex appeal is really that offensive to you is it? How about if Flash was portrayed as a meek person, do you think it would be just as interesting?

"Sex appeal"? When it's done for reasons that are extraneous, indulgent and really do very little for the character other than satisfy a bunch of fanboys desires for ridiculous fanservice all in the name of verisimilitude and fidelity to outdated concepts from the 1960's, then yes. I suppose that is offensive to me.

I'm not sure what you're on about with Flash being portrayed as "meek". Is this somehow meant to be analogous to Mary Jane not being portrayed a "bombshell" (ugh)?