The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[Solidus]

Let's not put this thread back into the perma-white joker debate. We still have that thread for those who want to beat a dead horse.

It is a tough horse lol. I brought it up though due to the fact that both the Joker and Two-Face have great characterization done by Nolan, which is the most important thing.

 

[Solidus]

You make an outstanding case, Solidus - by far one of the best Pro-Nolan article I have written.

Looking from it with THAT POV, I can buy it. I honestly can.

Again - I don't necessarily LIKE it - but I can buy it. I can see where it works.

Of course bro, that is fine, I am not saying AT all that you have to like it or not. I just said this is how I see it. Glad you got to read it, and wonderful read on your Two-Face post at the start of this thread, I agree with you on that. I like the TLH version they are doing.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No. The Long Halloween showed him as being a great guy, an overall noble guy. Spending time with his work bench and flipping a coin does not show him being evil.

Those were included though because the Loeb clearly wanted the audience to think [blackout]he was Holiday.[/blackout]

While Harvey was a great guy, he certainly had his problems. Even though TLH didn't specifically address it, Harvey's father abused him heavily. He'd flip a coin to see if Harvey got beaten, but it was a double sided coin (probably the same one he gave to Harvey in TLH) so no matter what Harvey got beaten.

This obviously screwed him up a bit, and he had some unresolved issues. It wasn't just the acid that made him go crazy, it was also the abuse he had been holding back from his childhood.

While I agree that Harvey was heroic, he certainly had his own internal problems. But like you mentioned, he's not a bad guy. He wouldn't work with the mob. He's just a good guy who had lots of crap happen to him and has lots of problems that he keeps beneath the surface.

 

[Mr. Socko]

My God, people are still whining about TDK's Joker not being perma-white?
Look, I'm as bummed as the next guy about it, but the fact is he IS NOT PERMA-WHITE. What good will it do to whine about it? This is Nolan's adaption of a classic icon....it looks to be the best and close to the source interpretation I've ever seen....I can live with him not being perma-white.

I agree. It's no longer a very big deal to me and I can't wait to see the Joker in TDK. I'm a supporter of the perma-white but it's still okay that it's not there.

In fact, I'd much rather have a non perma-white Heath than a tubby perma-white Jack Nicholson acting like Cesar Romero...and I love Jack.

You bring up Nicholson being tubby...it is a visual attribute you did not like about his representation, no? So if it's just fine for you to dislike the aspect of Jack's Joker visually being large in size(very much unlike his comic book counterpart) then why are you hypocritically attacking others who dislike the aspect of Heath's Joker visually lacking perma-white(very much unlike his comic book counterpart).

Yes, excellent point indeed.

 

[tigerknight]

Don't go down this path again.

Falling into chemicals and surviving is not impossible or unrealistic, I will stand up for that. It was nothing more then an artistic decision nothing to do with "realism"

thanks 4 the clarification

 

[StorminNorman]

While Harvey was a great guy, he certainly had his problems. Even though TLH didn't specifically address it, Harvey's father abused him heavily. He'd flip a coin to see if Harvey got beaten, but it was a double sided coin (probably the same one he gave to Harvey in TLH) so no matter what Harvey got beaten.

This obviously screwed him up a bit, and he had some unresolved issues. It wasn't just the acid that made him go crazy, it was also the abuse he had been holding back from his childhood.

While I agree that Harvey was heroic, he certainly had his own internal problems. But like you mentioned, he's not a bad guy. He wouldn't work with the mob. He's just a good guy who had lots of crap happen to him and has lots of problems that he keeps beneath the surface.

I hate the idea that Harvey's dad used a double sided coin. Its campy - even considering the subject matter.

But yes - Harvey did have problems. But by the time he became DA, he had dealt with his demons. He had become a stable guy. He would of been okay - had it not been for the Falcone case.

 

[Dark Sentinel]

i really like what Nolan is doing with Two-Face. reading that QnA with Eckhart really showed his commitment to the role.

btw: Solidus, me and Carno are in Jow Chat, get in there man!

 

[Figs]

First I want to look at just the classic (and great) comic book version of the Joker. He is a man, no one really knows his history before the “accident” but that can always be left up for imagination. Yet when he fell into the chemicals by most versions his skin was bleached white. Now, I always try to look at it from a different point of view. Joker gets out of the vat of chemicals, now he is bleached. Technically being bleached skin does not make a person automatically a clown like person. There are real people out there with bleached skin, or pigment issues and right away one does not go: “Hey its a clown!” When the Joker saw himself in a mirror or what ever, he himself decided, and felt that he looked like a clown, then in deciding to make that so, he did many things to give him the clown appearance. White skin is just one step in looking like a clown. He put on theatrical clothes, of odd colors: purple, orange, green. To give him a more theatrical and some what comical look such as a clown. Adding red lipstick or black eye shadow on his eye sockets, to make himself look more clown like. Not only that he chose to use toys, and act like a clown, and laugh like one too. These for the most part are choices, though fate was thrust upon him, these were still choices made by him.

Technically the bleached Joker could have gone out people would of looked at him like a freak, but not necessarily a clown. And he could of gotten black paint and made himself look like a Zebra, and called him self the “Zebra Killer” but he did not, he chose the clown persona. And acted as such, either because he felt that is what he looked like or not, he still chose that look for himself.

Now look at the Joker in “The Dark Knight” we have a guy who we have no idea what his past is. Yet he clearly had a deformity thrust upon him, which was this time the accident is not chemicals but a freakish scar that made it look like a smile on his face. With this deformation just like the comic book Joker this one decided he looked like a clown, and put on make up, and made a clown ensemble: the purple, green, and orange look. Not only that he put on the red lipstick and black as well, though yes the difference is that he put on the white and the green hair as well. Yet he still has a deformation that makes him stand out in his own eyes, so because of this event he feels he needs to look like a clown, for what ever reason that may be, we will never know, its the Joker, he is truly and unknown in so many ways.

Yet again it seems to me that Nolan has the core of the character, yes he made one twist on it, but still the results are the same.


Both Jokers:

A. Had an accident that caused some type of deformation.
B. Both felt they must of looked like a clown in their own eyes.

1. C.They both created the clown ensemble around their deformations.

Though I know some see it differently and that is fine. But to me Nolan contained the core of the Joker, in why he does what he does, and why he looks like a clown. Though the approach is different the results in some way are the same.

Though I know some people go well, a scar is not as deforming as a chemical bath. Well, I say “untrue” to that. People think scars are so easily fixed by plastic surgery, well they are not, besides TDKR why doesn't Two-Face right away turn around and get plastic surgery? Because its deeper then that, its not just because they physical deformation they are freaks, but the Joker is also a freak because of his mind, and the way he thinks. He is a sociopath he does not follow norms.

Technically if the Joker wanted to he could cover up being perma-white, with make up just as Joker did in B89, if he truly wanted to fit in. But he does not, the Joker does not fit in because he wants to be a freak. And he just adds to it by creating an clown ensemble.

And to me the scars in TDK are not just for visual alone. They are visuals in the sense that Nolan decided it to be the deformation process, yet on top of that, they are the deformation that sends the Joker over the edge, and making him, or having him dawn the clown persona. So the scars and the perma-white are both in a way two different deformations yet they achieve the same person we know as the Joker. In principle.

So in final words as I see it the Joker in TDK, and the Joker in the comics though they have a huge alteration, still achieve the same character, and characteristics of one another. I wrote this because some of the fine gentlemen on this board maybe wonder why I am completely fine with a make-up Joker. And this is because I see it this way. That they are both the Joker, and besides one deviation they both are the same character that we know and love.

I tell ya Solidus, this post is so damn good and spot on that you should print this bad boy out and frame the mother F'er!!t:

 

[FlawlessVictory]

I tell ya Solidus, this post is so damn good and spot on that you should print this bad boy out and frame the mother F'er!!t:

I agree, great post. I hadn't seen that before, glad you reposted it.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I hate the idea that Harvey's dad used a double sided coin. Its campy - even considering the subject matter.

But yes - Harvey did have problems. But by the time he became DA, he had dealt with his demons. He had become a stable guy. He would of been okay - had it not been for the Falcone case.

Basically yeah. I don't mind the two sided coin thing, I just think it makes his dad a sadistic b*stard that liked to screw with his kid.

Really, the abusive dad sub-plot is the only "hidden demons" I'd want Harvey to have, only because it fit with his character as Two-Face. It enforces Harvey's obsession with the number 2, and makes it more logical.

If another guy had been scarred, he probably wouldn't have obsessed with the duality his face represented. Harvey however already had a problem with the duality of things due to his dad, and the scarring just brought that out.

I hated the "big bad Harv" thing in TAS because it didn't fit as well as the abusive dad thing did. In that it just made him another crazy with a split personality, and it actually seemed kind of odd that his split personality would become obsessed with a duality and use a coin to decide things. His split personality was already established, so it seemed tacked on when they added that.

The abusive father subplot on the other hand fits much better.

 

[Mr. Socko]

I hate the idea that Harvey's dad used a double sided coin. Its campy - even considering the subject matter.

But yes - Harvey did have problems. But by the time he became DA, he had dealt with his demons. He had become a stable guy. He would of been okay - had it not been for the Falcone case.

How do you propose Harvey go to the 'dark side?' Simply by being scarred.

It is a strong incentive, what some(myself partially included) are arguing is that there should be another catalyst as well to go along with the scarring.

The pearly white Apollo of Gotham would need something more than just being scarred to make him go 'over the edge.'

If he goes from perfect man of Gotham to murderous vigilante due to the scarring, it could simply make the character seem weaker.

It is why I suggest Harvey Dent go through an inner struggle(even if a small one) that only he knows about. Basically, the scarring unleashes dormant demons as opposed to "I'm scarred, now I'm going to kill everyone."

 

[Sidepocket]

Oh god here we go. This thing has no skin yet and is starting to smell and we are still beating it?

Well I am going to put in my two cents I have been saying since the beginning of time:

Here is what the Joker is:

"He has white skin...
He has red lips...
He has green hair...
He tells jokes that are not funny...
He wears purple...
And, he kills people."

-- Lee Bermejo

This is what Nolan gave us, so to me all the other complaints are just useless nitpick *****ing. Not to mention all of the Batman characters for good or bad have changed appearances so many times they are almost unrecognizable. The only thing that keeps them who they are are there character, and that is what Nolan`s (my keyboard is screwing up) is all about.

Here is another way you can look at it. In a way, visually, they got Mr. Freeze right in Batman & Robin. The suit while modified to Arnold was like the suit, especially when he put on the glasses. It was not like they did the "Nolan blasphemy" and made him wear a tux or something. So visually I would say Mr. Freeze looked like the comics. However, Arnold WAS NOT MR. FREEZE in character!

Heath however, is the Joker. I do not care if he is wearing a pink's nurse outfit, he is still the Joker! Oh wait-

Or you can look at it this way. ****ing Mark Hamil(SP?) loves the new Joker and is excited to see it. Mark did what 98% of the people here see as the best Joker ever done.

So IMO if you have any further problems I can call Mark over to your place so he can slap some sense into you.

Oh and back on topic, I really just want to see Harvey in motion. I know it in my gut that he will do a great Two-Face though. I did once doubt it though, the actor playing him does not exactly have the best track record of good film vs bad film ratio.

What made me snap out of it is that no actor does.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Here is another way you can look at it. In a way, visually, they got Mr. Freeze right in Batman & Robin. The suit while modified to Arnold was like the suit, especially when he put on the glasses. It was not like they did the "Nolan blasphemy" and made him wear a tux or something. So visually I would say Mr. Freeze looked like the comics. However, Arnold WAS NOT MR. FREEZE in character!

I agree with your posts except this part, which is wrong. Arnold was very much Freeze in characterization and especially in motivation. He was a man stuck to live at zero below in a cryo-suit due to an experiment gone wrong. He pulled off several crimes throughout Gotham just to help his dying wife, and once she passed away he took out his anger on all of Gotham attempting to freeze the entire city. Just which part of that isn't Mr. Freeze?

He was Freeze in character and appearance, the entire seriousness of it was just entirely ruined due to poor dialogue featuring puns every second.

 

[StorminNorman]

How do you propose Harvey go to the 'dark side?' Simply by being scarred.

It is a strong incentive, what some(myself partially included) are arguing is that there should be another catalyst as well to go along with the scarring.

The pearly white Apollo of Gotham would need something more than just being scarred to make him go 'over the edge.'

If he goes from perfect man of Gotham to murderous vigilante due to the scarring, it could simply make the character seem weaker.

It is why I suggest Harvey Dent go through an inner struggle(even if a small one) that only he knows about. Basically, the scarring unleashes dormant demons as opposed to "I'm scarred, now I'm going to kill everyone."

The Maroni case should be incredibly frustrating. It should put incredible stress to him. He should be willing to put himself through hell so that Maroni is finally gone and the gang presence in Gotham will be dealt a savage blow.

And when that day comes. His day in court. IN his SANCTUARY of a Courtroom, he is scarred. Maroni's key witness refuses to testify and Maroni's case is forced to be thrown out.

Justice alluded him. The legal system failed him. His new scarred psyche shows him a new path...

 

[Figs]

I agree with your posts except this part, which is wrong. Arnold was very much Freeze in characterization and especially in motivation. He was a man stuck to live at zero below in a cryo-suit due to an experiment gone wrong. He pulled off several crimes throughout Gotham just to help his dying wife, and once she passed away he took out his anger on all of Gotham attempting to freeze the entire city. Just which part of that isn't Mr. Freeze?

He was Freeze in character and appearance, the entire seriousness of it was just entirely ruined due to poor dialogue featuring puns every second.

Agreed. I wouldn't have minded Arnold at all if they had taken it in a strictly serious direction.

 

[Asgard]

He looks a lot like Two Face in B&R, but WAY creepier.

 

[Mr. Socko]

The Maroni case should be incredibly frustrating. It should put incredible stress to him. He should be willing to put himself through hell so that Maroni is finally gone and the gang presence in Gotham will be dealt a savage blow.

And when that day comes. His day in court. IN his SANCTUARY of a Courtroom, he is scarred. Maroni's key witness refuses to testify and Maroni's case is forced to be thrown out.

Justice alluded him. The legal system failed him. His new scarred psyche shows him a new path...

I like that

He looks a lot like Two Face in B&R, but WAY creepier.

Two Face wasn't in B&R, and I don't think Eckhart's Two Face looks anything like Jone's. But I agree it's creepier/scarier.

 

[Reflectionist]

Interesting enough though. This is out of respect cuz you know I loves ya Stormin. But you do make great points about how Nolan is getting the characterization right on Two-Face it seems to me he has hit the nail on the head. And I love what we have of Two-Face so far. Though some have complained about his look, not being perfectly half and half like it is in the comics. Yet you do not mention this. To me this is the same with the complaint of the Joker not being Permwhite. One little visual aspect, that is different. Yet Nolan has hit the nail on the head with the characterization of the Joker. And this to me is the same with Two-Face perfect characterization, but visually a little different then from before.

A while back I wrote this on the Makeup Page about the Joker. I hope you like it, to me its how I see what Nolan has done with the Joker.

I kinda took some time to write out “why” I don't mind the Joker not being perma-white. Now I'm not saying that, because I'm right, but I fully understand why Nolan took this route, and saw it still as the core of what makes the Joker, the Clown Prince Of Crime.

First I want to look at just the classic (and great) comic book version of the Joker. He is a man, no one really knows his history before the “accident” but that can always be left up for imagination. Yet when he fell into the chemicals by most versions his skin was bleached white. Now, I always try to look at it from a different point of view. Joker gets out of the vat of chemicals, now he is bleached. Technically being bleached skin does not make a person automatically a clown like person. There are real people out there with bleached skin, or pigment issues and right away one does not go: “Hey its a clown!” When the Joker saw himself in a mirror or what ever, he himself decided, and felt that he looked like a clown, then in deciding to make that so, he did many things to give him the clown appearance. White skin is just one step in looking like a clown. He put on theatrical clothes, of odd colors: purple, orange, green. To give him a more theatrical and some what comical look such as a clown. Adding red lipstick or black eye shadow on his eye sockets, to make himself look more clown like. Not only that he chose to use toys, and act like a clown, and laugh like one too. These for the most part are choices, though fate was thrust upon him, these were still choices made by him.

Technically the bleached Joker could have gone out people would of looked at him like a freak, but not necessarily a clown. And he could of gotten black paint and made himself look like a Zebra, and called him self the “Zebra Killer” but he did not, he chose the clown persona. And acted as such, either because he felt that is what he looked like or not, he still chose that look for himself.

Now look at the Joker in “The Dark Knight” we have a guy who we have no idea what his past is. Yet he clearly had a deformity thrust upon him, which was this time the accident is not chemicals but a freakish scar that made it look like a smile on his face. With this deformation just like the comic book Joker this one decided he looked like a clown, and put on make up, and made a clown ensemble: the purple, green, and orange look. Not only that he put on the red lipstick and black as well, though yes the difference is that he put on the white and the green hair as well. Yet he still has a deformation that makes him stand out in his own eyes, so because of this event he feels he needs to look like a clown, for what ever reason that may be, we will never know, its the Joker, he is truly and unknown in so many ways.

Yet again it seems to me that Nolan has the core of the character, yes he made one twist on it, but still the results are the same.


Both Jokers:

A. Had an accident that caused some type of deformation.
B. Both felt they must of looked like a clown in their own eyes.

1. C.They both created the clown ensemble around their deformations.

Though I know some see it differently and that is fine. But to me Nolan contained the core of the Joker, in why he does what he does, and why he looks like a clown. Though the approach is different the results in some way are the same.

Though I know some people go well, a scar is not as deforming as a chemical bath. Well, I say “untrue” to that. People think scars are so easily fixed by plastic surgery, well they are not, besides TDKR why doesn't Two-Face right away turn around and get plastic surgery? Because its deeper then that, its not just because they physical deformation they are freaks, but the Joker is also a freak because of his mind, and the way he thinks. He is a sociopath he does not follow norms.

Technically if the Joker wanted to he could cover up being perma-white, with make up just as Joker did in B89, if he truly wanted to fit in. But he does not, the Joker does not fit in because he wants to be a freak. And he just adds to it by creating an clown ensemble.

And to me the scars in TDK are not just for visual alone. They are visuals in the sense that Nolan decided it to be the deformation process, yet on top of that, they are the deformation that sends the Joker over the edge, and making him, or having him dawn the clown persona. So the scars and the perma-white are both in a way two different deformations yet they achieve the same person we know as the Joker. In principle.

So in final words as I see it the Joker in TDK, and the Joker in the comics though they have a huge alteration, still achieve the same character, and characteristics of one another. I wrote this because some of the fine gentlemen on this board maybe wonder why I am completely fine with a make-up Joker. And this is because I see it this way. That they are both the Joker, and besides one deviation they both are the same character that we know and love.

 

[nickyg641]

Interesting enough though. This is out of respect cuz you know I loves ya Stormin. But you do make great points about how Nolan is getting the characterization right on Two-Face it seems to me he has hit the nail on the head. And I love what we have of Two-Face so far. Though some have complained about his look, not being perfectly half and half like it is in the comics. Yet you do not mention this. To me this is the same with the complaint of the Joker not being Permwhite. One little visual aspect, that is different. Yet Nolan has hit the nail on the head with the characterization of the Joker. And this to me is the same with Two-Face perfect characterization, but visually a little different then from before.

A while back I wrote this on the Makeup Page about the Joker. I hope you like it, to me its how I see what Nolan has done with the Joker.

I kinda took some time to write out “why” I don't mind the Joker not being perma-white. Now I'm not saying that, because I'm right, but I fully understand why Nolan took this route, and saw it still as the core of what makes the Joker, the Clown Prince Of Crime.

First I want to look at just the classic (and great) comic book version of the Joker. He is a man, no one really knows his history before the “accident” but that can always be left up for imagination. Yet when he fell into the chemicals by most versions his skin was bleached white. Now, I always try to look at it from a different point of view. Joker gets out of the vat of chemicals, now he is bleached. Technically being bleached skin does not make a person automatically a clown like person. There are real people out there with bleached skin, or pigment issues and right away one does not go: “Hey its a clown!” When the Joker saw himself in a mirror or what ever, he himself decided, and felt that he looked like a clown, then in deciding to make that so, he did many things to give him the clown appearance. White skin is just one step in looking like a clown. He put on theatrical clothes, of odd colors: purple, orange, green. To give him a more theatrical and some what comical look such as a clown. Adding red lipstick or black eye shadow on his eye sockets, to make himself look more clown like. Not only that he chose to use toys, and act like a clown, and laugh like one too. These for the most part are choices, though fate was thrust upon him, these were still choices made by him.

Technically the bleached Joker could have gone out people would of looked at him like a freak, but not necessarily a clown. And he could of gotten black paint and made himself look like a Zebra, and called him self the “Zebra Killer” but he did not, he chose the clown persona. And acted as such, either because he felt that is what he looked like or not, he still chose that look for himself.

Now look at the Joker in “The Dark Knight” we have a guy who we have no idea what his past is. Yet he clearly had a deformity thrust upon him, which was this time the accident is not chemicals but a freakish scar that made it look like a smile on his face. With this deformation just like the comic book Joker this one decided he looked like a clown, and put on make up, and made a clown ensemble: the purple, green, and orange look. Not only that he put on the red lipstick and black as well, though yes the difference is that he put on the white and the green hair as well. Yet he still has a deformation that makes him stand out in his own eyes, so because of this event he feels he needs to look like a clown, for what ever reason that may be, we will never know, its the Joker, he is truly and unknown in so many ways.

Yet again it seems to me that Nolan has the core of the character, yes he made one twist on it, but still the results are the same.


Both Jokers:

A. Had an accident that caused some type of deformation.
B. Both felt they must of looked like a clown in their own eyes.

1. C.They both created the clown ensemble around their deformations.

Though I know some see it differently and that is fine. But to me Nolan contained the core of the Joker, in why he does what he does, and why he looks like a clown. Though the approach is different the results in some way are the same.

Though I know some people go well, a scar is not as deforming as a chemical bath. Well, I say “untrue” to that. People think scars are so easily fixed by plastic surgery, well they are not, besides TDKR why doesn't Two-Face right away turn around and get plastic surgery? Because its deeper then that, its not just because they physical deformation they are freaks, but the Joker is also a freak because of his mind, and the way he thinks. He is a sociopath he does not follow norms.

Technically if the Joker wanted to he could cover up being perma-white, with make up just as Joker did in B89, if he truly wanted to fit in. But he does not, the Joker does not fit in because he wants to be a freak. And he just adds to it by creating an clown ensemble.

And to me the scars in TDK are not just for visual alone. They are visuals in the sense that Nolan decided it to be the deformation process, yet on top of that, they are the deformation that sends the Joker over the edge, and making him, or having him dawn the clown persona. So the scars and the perma-white are both in a way two different deformations yet they achieve the same person we know as the Joker. In principle.

So in final words as I see it the Joker in TDK, and the Joker in the comics though they have a huge alteration, still achieve the same character, and characteristics of one another. I wrote this because some of the fine gentlemen on this board maybe wonder why I am completely fine with a make-up Joker. And this is because I see it this way. That they are both the Joker, and besides one deviation they both are the same character that we know and love.

Good post, Solidus, and, like Norman, I can see where the choice comes from. I don't like it, and I don't think it's as effective as permawhite, but I can see the logic behind it. Now I really want to post my rebuttal to all you've said...but would that come off as jerky and repetetive? You know better than anyone how much I seem to enjoy sounding like a broken record, Solidus.

 

[Asgard]

Two Face wasn't in B&R, and I don't think Eckhart's Two Face looks anything like Jone's. But I agree it's creepier/scarier.

Oops. I meant BF.

It's the color I was referencing, the way it extends all around the side of the head, and the lack of hair on the scarred area.

Is it just me or does his iris look reddish-brown in color?

 

[darknight7]

At some point there was an interview with Caine, and he was talking about the Joker character.

Spoiler

Saying that Joker never takes off his make-up, but applies more and more as it fades away. And it starts to stain his face and such. Becoming permanent.

that was exactly what I thought of a long time ago when we first saw he painted his face...

that was actually what i was hoping would be the case

--dk7

 

[Solidus]

Good post, Solidus, and, like Norman, I can see where the choice comes from. I don't like it, and I don't think it's as effective as permawhite, but I can see the logic behind it. Now I really want to post my rebuttal to all you've said...but would that come off as jerky and repetetive? You know better than anyone how much I seem to enjoy sounding like a broken record, Solidus.

LOL, nothing wrong with sounding like a broken record. I do it myself at times

 

[nickyg641]

LOL, nothing wrong with sounding like a broken record. I do it myself at times

Alrighty, then...

Here was my quote, in respond to your quote from the permawhite page:

Great post, and, to an extent, I very much agree. The scars are a twist on the permawhite ideals, and it works. However, as I've said, while they can (and obviously do) work, I find them to be just kind of a watered down version of permawhite.

I think the white skin really much better represents the Joker's physical state, and further exemplifies his position in the world. It's out there-- the point where it's almost illogical. How could he survive whatever made him this way? What the hell made him this way, anyway? It's bizarre and unique, and it defies all reason--just like the Joker.

Plus, symbolically, it works on many levels. It presents him with the innocent visage of a clown--and that of a corpse. Perfect for the Joker, who is, himself, a contradiction. He's playful and funny, but, at the same time, a cold-hearted killer.

It's something nobody else has, and if you were able to come up with somebody who really was like that in the real world, it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Whereas the scars, while effective for what they needs to do, are rather mundane, aren't they? There are people who actually have them. Which makes the Joker not so unique, right? Yes, there's his mental state, he still has that. But I like the idea that the Joker is unique all around.

And, I agree with you, about his choice. He doesn't have to live the life of a criminal. But he chooses to. So I don't think that's what permawhite, or any deformity is all about. In part, yes, but not totally. But, as I said, if he's going to be a freak, might as well go all out with it. After all, he is the Clown Prince of Crime.

 

[Solidus]

Alrighty, then...

Here was my quote, in respond to your quote from the permawhite page:

Great post, and, to an extent, I very much agree. The scars are a twist on the permawhite ideals, and it works. However, as I've said, while they can (and obviously do) work, I find them to be just kind of a watered down version of permawhite.

I think the white skin really much better represents the Joker's physical state, and further exemplifies his position in the world. It's out there-- the point where it's almost illogical. How could he survive whatever made him this way? What the hell made him this way, anyway? It's bizarre and unique, and it defies all reason--just like the Joker.

Plus, symbolically, it works on many levels. It presents him with the innocent visage of a clown--and that of a corpse. Perfect for the Joker, who is, himself, a contradiction. He's playful and funny, but, at the same time, a cold-hearted killer.

It's something nobody else has, and if you were able to come up with somebody who really was like that in the real world, it would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Whereas the scars, while effective for what they needs to do, are rather mundane, aren't they? There are people who actually have them. Which makes the Joker not so unique, right? Yes, there's his mental state, he still has that. But I like the idea that the Joker is unique all around.

And, I agree with you, about his choice. He doesn't have to live the life of a criminal. But he chooses to. So I don't think that's what permawhite, or any deformity is all about. In part, yes, but not totally. But, as I said, if he's going to be a freak, might as well go all out with it. After all, he is the Clown Prince of Crime.

And just like I said earlier on the matter, it is subjective to what makes them more of a freak. Some see it as one and some as others. There are people that have chemical burns out there, and do have bleached skin or pigment issues, as well as people with chelsea grins. So I think the two cancel each other out. I don't see either of those kind of people every day, so right there to me, scar or bleach skin are both as unique.

 

[nickyg641]

And just like I said earlier on the matter, it is subjective to what makes them more of a freak. Some see it as one and some as others. There are people that have chemical burns out there, and do have bleached skin or pigment issues, as well as people with chelsea grins. So I think the two cancel each other out. I don't see either of those kind of people every day, so right there to me, scar or bleach skin are both as unique.

Fair enough.