Will Peter/Spider-Man redeem himself by the end of the film?

[Mr. Stay Puft]

I know that I'm a newby, and it's frowned upon for newbs to create threads, but I wanted to bring this topic up because I hadn't seen one like it yet. So I hope this thread gains acceptance. If not...then I'm sorry.

Anyways, the way the film has been described so far shows that Peter has grown cocky and overconfident. This is before he even gets the symbiote attached to him. After it DOES attach to him, it takes that cockiness to a whole new level, causing him to attack Eddie, shove MJ, severly hurt Harry, and go overboard with his fight with Sandman. Basically what I'm asking is this...

Will Peter be able to redeem himself to the audience by the end of the movie?

So many people are pumped for Eddie/Venom and other aspects of the film, that they might actually find it hard to see Spidey as the hero towards the end of the film. It might seem as though Peter deserves the beating that he is getting. Or is this want Raimi wants to portray? I just thought it was an interesting though, and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about this.

 

[Jubba]

he will be redeemed...the only way that he wouldn't be redeemed would be if they had a huge cliffhanger for a part 4...which they like won't

 

[November Rain]

he won't, but they'll get the audience to forgive him, just like they did in spidey 2 when he couldnt get his act together to rescue a dying kid but could manage to do it to save his chick...

You only have to look at the unresolved dream sequence with uncle ben to see that...

all his wrongs will probably be forgotten.

 

[Dragon]

he won't, but they'll get the audience to forgive him, just like they did in spidey 2 when he couldnt get his act together to rescue a dying kid but could manage to do it to save his chick...

You only have to look at the unresolved dream sequence with uncle ben to see that...

all his wrongs will probably be forgotten.

Wha-huh?

What "dying kid" did he not save? You can't mean the fire- because he did save the girl.

The difference with Ock kidnapping MJ is that he couldn't possibly have saved MJ without his powers.

 

[November Rain]

dragon, you've misquoted me, I didn't say he failed to say anyone.

i said he failed to get his act together.

 

[FNSpidey]

That's an interesting question Mr. Stay Puft (or should I say Gozer?). Believe me, if newbie threads were like yours, they wouldn't be so frowned upon.

Anyway, I don't think Peter will be cocky or a jerk before he finds the symbiote. Remember the line "Do I deserve this?". Maybe he's enjoying the appreciation he finally gets, and that's quite reasonable, but I don't think he'll be a jerk or do anything really bad. So, if he symbiote is indeed the main cause for his behavior, then I think his realization and discarding of it will actually be his redemption (plus of course fighting the good fight in the end).

As to November Rain's point, I think Dragon is right. He did save that kid, not getting his powers back to do it doesn't make him less of a hero. It's just that in the burning building case, he could do it even without his powers, so he didn't realize how essential they were. Seeing MJ in the hands of Ock made him realize that there are scenarios that only he with his superhuman powers could face, so he gets them back in order to stand up to his greater responsibility.

 

[Jubba]

Wha-huh?

What "dying kid" did he not save? You can't mean the fire- because he did save the girl.

The difference with Ock kidnapping MJ is that he couldn't possibly have saved MJ without his powers.

he watched some kid getting beat up in an alley and did nothing...was he dying?

 

[NightCrawler]

lol the topic of the "dying kid" seems to be needing its own thread.

What do you mean by not being able to get his act together? I feel "getting his act together" would mean to get into the building and save the kid. Which he did. That was the turn point as i recall.

As for this threads topic... i think hes going to redeem himself. Its suppossed to be the last with Toby... i heard awhile back that the spider-man films were planned for up to Spider-Man 6 by Sony... but who knows. But, i think he will redeem himself, like mentioned before... its not like they're planning for the 4th right away... but then again, who am i to judge without having seen the ending?

 

[November Rain]

What do you mean by not being able to get his act together?

I take this as the subconcious switch that returned his abilities full time...

he saved the girl but it would seem that a kidnapped loved one holds a higher means of importance than potentiallly helpless burning children

not to mention his own safety as shown by plummeting down to earth on three separate occations.

 

[DACrowe]

Well he did morally feel the obligation, like his alterego would have, as he is still "the responsible noble hero;" even if he *****es and fights it. But I don't think it is inconceivable for it to mean more when the person who is in peril is someone yhou love (would you be more likely to risk all if it was your girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband/parent/child/whatever about to die?)?

Anyway, of course he'll be redeamed. This is still a family movie. And Eddie Brock is supposed to epitomize evil in this, so I doubt you'r'e SUPPOSED to be rooting for him. But yes Peter will do some bad **** (most likey the worse throwing a bomb into his 'best friend's" face, albeit he was doing the same to him).

We'll see though.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

I take this as the subconcious switch that returned his abilities full time...

he saved the girl but it would seem that a kidnapped loved one holds a higher means of importance than potentiallly helpless burning children

not to mention his own safety as shown by plummeting down to earth on three separate occations.

the differnce in the fire, and the kidnaping, (besides the it was a kidnaping of someone he loved) is that it was because of his actions as spider-man, that put MJ's life in danger.
the kid in the fire, was in no way a dicect result of something he did, and if he never was spider-man it still would of happen (maybe,someone else would of save the girl maybe not) but, he was willing to go in to save her even without his powers

anyway, it was kinda shown, that he held others life more importent then his own, and even more importent then her, as he was willing to give up being with her to be spider-man once more, to help others.
atleast that the way I see it

any who, on topic
first off, what leads you to believe that he acts cocky before the symbiote attached to him?

and, of course he'll redeem him self, the farther you from grace the more triumphant your return is, the inner struggles, and challenges he will have to face, to rid himself of the symbiote, (after realizing that it has started to take over him), it will, come through, that his good can over power any evil, and he will risk his life trying to fix what he’s done, and to stop the new evil (venom) that he helped unleash
just, my thought on it (still don't know, how the movie will play out, or if that, will actually show through or not)

 

[The Caped Knight]

Will Peter/Spider-Man redeem himself by the end of the film?

Yes .

 

[Mr. Stay Puft]

Yes .

Alright...............how? It's easy to just say "Yes". What is Peter going to do to show that he doesn't deserve the beating he's going to get?

 

[Dragon]

dragon, you've misquoted me, I didn't say he failed to say anyone.

i said he failed to get his act together.

You said: "he couldnt get his act together to rescue a dying kid but could manage to do it to save his chick"

If he rescued her, he DID get his act together. He just didn't use his powers.

Again, he knew both consciously and subconsciously that the ONLY WAY he could save MJ was if his powers were fully functioning. Just as in ASM Annual #1 he could only face Electro if his powers were working so, he subconsciously switched them back on.

Also, you make it sound self-serving that he saved MJ. She's a human being in danger. It's not like he wouldn't have done the same if someone else were in danger- just as he put it on the line to save the train passengers.
I just don't understand what you believe Peter did wrong here.

As for the guy being beat up in the alley, yeah, that was a failing on his part. So he balanced it by risking his life to save the girl.

 

[November Rain]

....

getting act together=getting powers back in the context of my original post, so no, he didn't get his act together.

The funny thing about the saving mj/city argument is that he actually manages to finally subdue ock, not as spiderman but as peter parker. Why parker never tried this right at the beginning is beyond me but that's another thread topic.

Honestly, I do think it is self serving. When that building was on fire, there was no way for parker to acess from the outside whether he would need his powers or not to get the job done, yet he subconciously made the decision to do it without.

you can't say that the fact that it was MJ and just not a random had no bearing on spidey's powers returning. Heck I would say it was the catalyst since it was his love that turned them off in the first place, then love would turn them back on.

the train is a sidetrack issue, just like the experiment ock was performing, spidey didn't know about them until his decision to get his powers back

a boring style way for the story to be done would be to have parker stealing the costume and still having some trouble fighting and stuff (hence his loss badly and other factors i can't be arsed getting into), then have them really return when tha wall is falling on MJ, she'd say something like she felt she always knew and never cared, so for him, he would realise being spidey was never a barrier and then he'd have the strength to get the wall off completely etc...

meh meh meh...

 

[November Rain]

also if i may add, the risk assement done by parker that would say there is no way i can get her back without using my powers should have been similar to the one about the lil girl in the burning building considering he barely escaped with a baby in a burning building in the first film, a task he wouldn't have survived without his powers...

so swings and roundabouts.

 

[Dragon]

....

getting act together=getting powers back in the context of my original post, so no, he didn't get his act together.

What difference does it make as long as he got the girl out? He was redeeming himself for turning his back on the mugging victim by risking his life in the fire.

The funny thing about the saving mj/city argument is that he actually manages to finally subdue ock, not as spiderman but as peter parker. Why parker never tried this right at the beginning is beyond me but that's another thread topic.

He still had to defeat Ock physically to get him in a state where he'd listen. Electrocuting him weakened the influence of the tentacles. He could have never talked Ock down in the state he was in prior to this.

Honestly, I do think it is self serving. When that building was on fire, there was no way for parker to acess from the outside whether he would need his powers or not to get the job done, yet he subconciously made the decision to do it without.

Yeah, but if the situation degenerated to one that he and the child couldn't escape minus his powers, then the powers would have kicked back in, same as with MJ.

you can't say that the fact that it was MJ and just not a random had no bearing on spidey's powers returning. Heck I would say it was the catalyst since it was his love that turned them off in the first place, then love would turn them back on.

Peter wasn't consciously shutting his powers off. His subconscious was giving him an "out". If he had no great power, he'd have no great responsibility. But Peter's learning curve was that he did feel the responsibility powers or not.

the train is a sidetrack issue, just like the experiment ock was performing, spidey didn't know about them until his decision to get his powers back

Again, Peter was consciously deciding to shut his powers off. He realized eventually that he was and sought to bring them to the surface. But even then it didn't work. It took a threat that only his full power could deal with for Peter to recover them. And yes, i'm sure it would've happened even without MJ being in danger.

a boring style way for the story to be done would be to have parker stealing the costume and still having some trouble fighting and stuff (hence his loss badly and other factors i can't be arsed getting into), then have them really return when tha wall is falling on MJ, she'd say something like she felt she always knew and never cared, so for him, he would realise being spidey was never a barrier and then he'd have the strength to get the wall off completely etc...

meh meh meh...

If his powers didn't fully return until the wal was collapsing, we wouldn't have had the train-fight, which was the film's setpiece. The movie was certainly clunky in some spots. But in the overall I felt it was well-done.

 

[The Joker]

He still had to defeat Ock physically to get him in a state where he'd listen. Electrocuting him weakened the influence of the tentacles. He could have never talked Ock down in the state he was in prior to this.

That's what I said in another thread I'm debating in with November Rain there. It would have been darn hard to reason with Ock when he believes he is justified in re-building his reactor at ANY cost.

The situation they were in at the end certainly helped Peter reason with Otto. The reactor was going haywire. Otto could see that it really doesn't work.

 

[Mr. Stay Puft]

Peter is going to hurt quite a few people, so I have a hard time believing that the instant he gets the symbiote off his body the audience is just going to go, "Oh, we forgive you Tobey. It's okay that you attacked Eddie and Harry and shoved down MJ. It's okay that you got overconfident." I want to know what Raimi is going to do to make Peter/Spidey look truly sorry and have him get what he deserves for the mistakes he made.

 

[November Rain]

mr stay puft, you started this thread by saying peter was already going to be 'cocky' before even getting the symbiote.

how do you rationalise this

someone else brought this up but you haven't addressed this yet.

 

[Mr. Stay Puft]

mr stay puft, you started this thread by saying peter was already going to be 'cocky' before even getting the symbiote.

how do you rationalise this

someone else brought this up but you haven't addressed this yet.

Perhaps "cocky" wasn't the best word to describe it. He seems very sure of himself. He feels like has he finally got everything down pat. How do I rationalize this?

#1 In the leaked Comic Con trailer Peter describes all the children cheering for him and the posters in the windows, and then he proceeds to ask, "Don't I deserve all of this?". That tells me that he is getting full of himself. He has forgotten that this isn't a prize. It's a curse and a responsibility that he has to live with, and he is loving the attention.

#2 The film would lack a certain amount of drama if it was just as simple as Peter only making bad decisions with the symbiote attached to him. Peter is still there, though influenced by the symbiote. BUT he still questions where the suit came from and he doesn't seem to mind the fact that it has given him all this extra power. I think that the innocent hearted Peter from the first or second films would have been a little more cautious. But in this movie he just seems more thrilled to be extra powerful.

#3 And the weakest of any of my points. Most of the plot synopsis' that I have read have stated that Peter is becoming overconfident with his abilities, and that later on the symbiote attaches to him.

 

[November Rain]

What difference does it make as long as he got the girl out? He was redeeming himself for turning his back on the mugging victim by risking his life in the fire.

I know it may not seem like much but motivation is everything.

Just like in the comics, peter lets the robber go because he's arrogant while in the film, he lets the robber go as payback for getting undercut out of the profits.

It's very subtle but for a tweak freak like myself, it makes a whole world of difference.

Two relatively equal dangers occur to two innocents, yet his subconcious acts differently as if one requires a greater sense of accepting responsibility than the other when it gives the impression his driven by personal gain, both for the initial loss and the regaining of his abilities.

one can rationalise its because he feels mj's abduction is his fault but a reconciliation scene would uncle ben going on about how he won't make the same mistake twice. would have confirmed this to some extent but there's nothing of the sort.

He still had to defeat Ock physically to get him in a state where he'd listen. Electrocuting him weakened the influence of the tentacles. He could have never talked Ock down in the state he was in prior to this.

again, I would believe this fully but he never tried once, not as ock and not as Pete.

again, if a small scene was there at the bank where peter asked Ock what he was doing and that he needed some help, then yeah

or another one at the cafe but instead he begins to start threatening him, which is never really going to help the situation.

I mean look at harry, harry managed to come to some sort of agreement with him so it's not like OCk was beyond all sorts of logic. You could say harry had a bargaining tool but so does peter, one that he happily used at the end.

so strings and roundabouts.

Yeah, but if the situation degenerated to one that he and the child couldn't escape minus his powers, then the powers would have kicked back in, same as with MJ.

he barely jumped over a collasped part of the corridoor, how much more dire could it have gotten before he should have stepped up and his past experience would have informed him that it could have gone up any second, just like it happened in spidey one when he rescued that baby.

he was flirting with destiny.

Peter wasn't consciously shutting his powers off. His subconscious was giving him an "out". If he had no great power, he'd have no great responsibility. But Peter's learning curve was that he did feel the responsibility powers or not.

having mj as a catalyst doesn't mean it makes his decision conscience

Again, Peter was consciously deciding to shut his powers off. He realized eventually that he was and sought to bring them to the surface. But even then it didn't work. It took a threat that only his full power could deal with for Peter to recover them. And yes, i'm sure it would've happened even without MJ being in danger.

alright i'll drop the whole conscience and subconscious ideas since we both know what happened and its really just coming down to semantics.

If you believe that he would have towed the line if MJ or another loved one he knew was present, than fair enough. Personally i don't think its the case but debating it is just going to go round and round

If his powers didn't fully return until the wal was collapsing, we wouldn't have had the train-fight, which was the film's setpiece. The movie was certainly clunky in some spots. But in the overall I felt it was well-done.

well he could be like he was during the bank fight with it cutting out at parts, different powers at different parts.

Heck personally, it would have added to the scene, not only drammatically but seeing someone at half hog still going out there trying to make a difference but ultimately failing (that is if his plan wasn't to get beat ultimately, but that's a discussion i'm having with DoC OcK at the mo in another thread). The wall would have been his final testimonial of putting everything in order in a master planner arc type fashion.

although saying this, unless he used some aspects of his powers to save that kid in the burning building, i'd still have problems with it but it's nothing really important on the grand scale of things

 

[November Rain]

Perhaps "cocky" wasn't the best word to describe it. He seems very sure of himself. He feels like has he finally got everything down pat. How do I rationalize this?

#1 In the leaked Comic Con trailer Peter describes all the children cheering for him and the posters in the windows, and then he proceeds to ask, "Don't I deserve all of this?". That tells me that he is getting full of himself. He has forgotten that this isn't a prize. It's a curse and a responsibility that he has to live with, and he is loving the attention.

#2 The film would lack a certain amount of drama if it was just as simple as Peter only making bad decisions with the symbiote attached to him. Peter is still there, though influenced by the symbiote. BUT he still questions where the suit came from and he doesn't seem to mind the fact that it has given him all this extra power. I think that the innocent hearted Peter from the first or second films would have been a little more cautious. But in this movie he just seems more thrilled to be extra powerful.

#3 And the weakest of any of my points. Most of the plot synopsis' that I have read have stated that Peter is becoming overconfident with his abilities, and that later on the symbiote attaches to him.

1. the leaked trailers says 'Do I deserve all of this, I'm just a nerdy boy from Queens'

that's about as level headed as you can get. I believe you misheard the clip.


2. being naiive doesn't make somebody over confident, parker is simply being naiive to the suit's enhancements, that's all, it's a very human trait. I mean he wasn't cautious when he got his powers, it could have killed him but he didn't report it.

3. perhaps by overconfident, they probably mean he assumes he can take on the sandman in their first confrontation. Again, it's parker being naiive, or that's the way i see it. He's under estimated people many times before.

 

[Mr. Stay Puft]

1. the leaked trailers says 'Do I deserve all of this, I'm just a nerdy boy from Queens'

that's about as level headed as you can get. I believe you misheard the clip.


2. being naiive doesn't make somebody over confident, parker is simply being naiive to the suit's enhancements, that's all, it's a very human trait. I mean he wasn't cautious when he got his powers, it could have killed him but he didn't report it.

3. perhaps by overconfident, they probably mean he assumes he can take on the sandman in their first confrontation. Again, it's parker being naiive, or that's the way i see it. He's under estimated people many times before.

1. Well then I just misheard the clip, and I apologize for that.

2. He IS being naive. But the fact remains that he loves the power it gives him, and it takes more than one mistake for him to realize that it's not worth having. Peter knew where his spider powers came from. He doesn't know where the symbiote came from, and he doesn't seem to care. Why? Because I think that he loves knowing that he's Spider-Man and that he is even stronger now. The guy has a festival in his honor that he shows up to. Do you really think they are going to ignore the theme of overconfidence in this movie, and that it is just him being naive? The trailer shows MJ telling Peter that "Even Spider-Man needs help sometimes." I think that is clearly about overconfidence, and not just about being naive. I think the mistake Peter is going to make in this movie is believing that Spider-Man is all powerful, and that he can take care of any problems that NYC has. And the added power of the symbiote is going to push those beliefs over the edge.

3. You see it as naive, but I see it as overconfidence. I think that's the main difference. Regardless, the point is that Peter makes a big mistake that allows him to hurt people close to him. And what I'm questioning is whether or not it will be clear that Peter learns from his mistakes and wins the audience back.

 

[Visionary]

And what I'm questioning is whether or not it will be clear that Peter learns from his mistakes and wins the audience back.

I hope not, I hope the movie doesn't end with everything tied up with a little cute bow. I want some thing(s) to linger, leaving us pondering about something. Damn closure.