X-Men - Part 6

[JewishHobbit]

After a lot of deliberation, I'm finally going to drop all X-Men titles. I've been collecting with only the occasional absence for 25-30 years (and caught up on every issue before that) so this is pretty huge for me.

I've had real issues with the series ever since Faction and Bendis first came aboard. I feel the X-Men have morally become the same as the Acolytes, but Marvel and the writers don't have enough understanding of Charles' dream to realise why it should still be important. The X-Men aren't any more "at war" or "on the edge of extinction" than they were back when Magneto used to ramble about these things.

The DOFP movie (and especially Charles' "Just because someone stumbles" speech) made me nostalgic for an X-Men comic that's long gone. A comic that had real heart, and optimism. I believe too much has changed, too drastically to the core of the comics and the characters to the point I genuinely don't believe the comic is recoverable any more. Not to what it once was.

If there were great storys being told then maybe I could enjoy the new direction, but the arts pretty average and the writing more-so. The O5 joining were a fun idea for a short while, but why are they still here? The comics are a complete mess IMO.

Maybe one day there'll be an entire universe new-52 style reboot, but until then, I think we've lost the X-Men.

I'm in the same boat. I honestly continue to read out of habit, but I don't like it. Even the titles I do semi-enjoy don't feel like the X-Men to me. For me it all changed with Morrison's run. The X-Men still felt like the X-Men through Eve of Destruction just prior to Morrison's run, but then Morrison destroyed the "family" and it's been deconstructing ever since. These days it just feels like random characters doing random things over and over again while hating each other. It's not the X-Men of the past and pales in comparison to it.

For me, Extraordinary X-Men is okay. All-New X-Men is well written but completely pointless and shouldn't even exist. Uncanny X-Men has no real purpose... and it irritates me that the team didn't even have a proper formation. They just sorta happened... and that's very common these days in the X-Men. I don't feel like people care to lay out how teams form... they just have them together. It's happened that way with this and every iteration of X-Force since Uncanny X-Force (and no, their one page splash page during Second Coming doesn't count).

But yeah... Marvel's completely lost focus of who the X-Men are and has for a long time. They used to be my all time favorite comic. Now their a habit read because I can't bring myself to stop reading it. Sadly, almost all the Marvel books that I read are like that. Extraordinary X-Men is my favorite Marvel book and it's only my 14th favorite comic that I read monthly.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I feel that way about comics in general... you never feel for any team or characters anymore because marvel seems to switch the status quo of a team like a light switch... as well as who's alive and who's dead. you can no longer get attached to anyone because every year a shake-up happens... some die and/or a team roster switches like a revolving door... the terrible need to sell comics by ****ing out properties is hurting them in the long run

 

[Mike Murdock]

I have to quibble with the idea that a book shouldn't exist (particularly with the complaints over the reduction in the number of books). To me, the X-Men have had a variety of stories over the years and a young teen X-Book makes a lot of sense overall.

 

[BoredGuy]

Their presence in the future is what doesn't make sense
but a teen x-book is always a necessity, it should just be about the actual young x-men and not hip modernized versions of the 60's teens

Outside of Whedon's run, I'd agree about the family aspect being gone. Messiah Complex and Second Coming had elements that felt family-like, but all in all the constant squabbling between groups of X-Men makes them feel more like high school cliques than a family unit

 

[JewishHobbit]

My problem with the O5 is that their being here makes no real sense. Based on established Marvel understanding of time travel, their being here SHOULD create an alternate timeline. However, they're being written as still being from THIS timeline's past so much so that things that happen to them effects the now (sometimes... consistency is apparently fluid in various circumstances). That goes against everything that Marvel's established beforehand.

Them coming to the now, influence the now versions of themselves, and then being brainwashed and sent back would have been fine. But them being here to stay like this is just dumb. I hate it. There have been a ton of ignored young X-characters. Do something with them. From Generation X through Generation Hope.

 

[Havok83]

My problem with the O5 is that their being here makes no real sense. Based on established Marvel understanding of time travel, their being here SHOULD create an alternate timeline. However, they're being written as still being from THIS timeline's past so much so that things that happen to them effects the now (sometimes... consistency is apparently fluid in various circumstances). That goes against everything that Marvel's established beforehand.

I barely read, but outside of Scott briefly fading in BoTA, when have they ever affected their older versions? I think its almost safe to say that they have effectively diverged the timeline. There would be much bigger consequences on 616 by them staying with a whole lot more than just their older selves being affected. It would be interesting to see what they come up with in that scenario bc in their timeline Xavier must think they all died. What would the world be like if the O5 were presumed dead in the early years?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I barely read, but outside of Scott briefly fading in BoTA, when have they ever affected their older versions? I think its almost safe to say that they have effectively diverged the timeline. There would be much bigger consequences on 616 by them staying with a whole lot more than just their older selves being affected. It would be interesting to see what they come up with in that scenario bc in their timeline Xavier must think they all died. What would the world be like if the O5 were presumed dead in the early years?

well young Iceman did flat out get his older self to come out... so id say that's a big influence... bobby could have just remained a closet case

 

[Havok83]

well young Iceman did flat out get his older self to come out... so id say that's a big influence... bobby could have just remained a closet case

but thats a retcon itself. They are saying Bobby was always gay. Young Bobby didnt make him gay

 

[spideyboy_1111]

but thats a retcon itself. They are saying Bobby was always gay. Young Bobby didnt make him gay

... and this is a story by writers.. retcon or not. and as much as i feel they probably shouldn't of done it.. i don't even know if i'd call it a "retcon" considering their have been several previous examples of writers alluding to Bobby being gay.. since the 80s

 

[Havok83]

... and this is a story by writers.. retcon or not. and as much as i feel they probably shouldn't of done it.. i don't even know if i'd call it a "retcon" considering their have been several previous examples of writers alluding to Bobby being gay.. since the 80s

No its a retcon. He was firmly established as straight for decades

 

[Mad Ones]

He was firmly established as straight for decades

I know a few gay guys who were too

I think the X-books are fine right now. None of the titles are bad at all. It just depends on how well you can handle the extinction angle again. I think Extraordinary has a fair bit of family vibes. And I like All New. It's as pointless as every other comic.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

No its a retcon. He was firmly established as straight for decades

so arn't many closeted people... you know, before they come out.

there's been several suggestions over the last 30 years that bobby may indeed be a closet case...

dating women doesn't establish him as straight...

 

[Havok83]

I know a few gay guys who were too

do you? Do you have privvy insight into their actual inner thoughts and not just lying words that may have came out of their mouths?

so arn't many closeted people... you know, before they come out.

there's been several suggestions over the last 30 years that bobby may indeed be a closet case...

dating women doesn't establish him as straight...

but being attracted to only women does. He has never once been shown to fantasize or think about men in that way. He has with women for decades. That goes beyond dating women bc we've seen his thought bubbles and telepaths around him to confirm this before Bendis undid it

 

[spideyboy_1111]

do you? Do you have privvy insight into their actual inner thoughts and not just lying words that may have came out of their mouths?



but being attracted to only women does. He has never once been shown to fantasize or think about men in that way. He has with women for decades. That goes beyond dating women bc we've seen his thought bubbles and telepaths around him to confirm this before Bendis undid it

how do you know he's only been attracted to women? he's never said "I'm only attracted to women" even in thought... and most closet cases (especially ones who've never been with another guy before) constantly tell themselves they love women... and thus usually overcompensate for it.

and as for Telepaths... Emma Frost alluded to it back when he wasn't living up to his full potential.. she knows. she's just not going to gloat about it.. her brother is gay.

as for Jean... well, older jean likely had more respect and maturity compared to young jean. Plus... Young Bobby only began to question and accept himself as gay in modern times... where it is far more acceptable. so there's that aspect too.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I think it's all a big stretch. No, I don't think Iceman was ever gay... closet or otherwise. It was forced upon him. As was stated before... we've seen the inner workings of Bobby's mind for many decades and never once was there ever even a hint. Not really. There's been fan speculation... yes... but that's an entirely different thing.

I'm all for there being gay characters, but this is just crap.

 

[Mike Murdock]

My problem with the O5 is that their being here makes no real sense. Based on established Marvel understanding of time travel, their being here SHOULD create an alternate timeline. However, they're being written as still being from THIS timeline's past so much so that things that happen to them effects the now (sometimes... consistency is apparently fluid in various circumstances). That goes against everything that Marvel's established beforehand.

I think you're overstating things about there being consistent rules of timetravel. That criticism is much broader than Marvel, but I don't think it's unusual for the rules to fit the plot.

 

[Havok83]

how do you know he's only been attracted to women? he's never said "I'm only attracted to women" even in thought... and most closet cases (especially ones who've never been with another guy before) constantly tell themselves they love women... and thus usually overcompensate for it.

and as for Telepaths... Emma Frost alluded to it back when he wasn't living up to his full potential.. she knows. she's just not going to gloat about it.. her brother is gay.

as for Jean... well, older jean likely had more respect and maturity compared to young jean. Plus... Young Bobby only began to question and accept himself as gay in modern times... where it is far more acceptable. so there's that aspect too.

Bc Ive been reading the books featuring since his 1963 debut

I think it's all a big stretch. No, I don't think Iceman was ever gay... closet or otherwise. It was forced upon him. As was stated before... we've seen the inner workings of Bobby's mind for many decades and never once was there ever even a hint. Not really. There's been fan speculation... yes... but that's an entirely different thing.

I'm all for there being gay characters, but this is just crap.

pretty much this right here

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Bc Ive been reading the books featuring since his 1963 debut




pretty much this right here

it's a fictional character.. last i checked we have a limited view of there personal inner thoughts...

do i like the way it all went down and happened? no, do i support it? no. But did they manage to work it in semi-realistically and make sense of it as well as tie it into past personal issues Bobby has had? YES...

Fan speculation was based on legit things that bobby has done or encountered in the past.. not some random "ship" where people just want him to be gay...

so no, i can't outright call this one a Retcon.. it wasn't just a random thing out of the blue.

 

[Havok83]

it's a fictional character.. last i checked we have a limited view of there personal inner thoughts...

do i like the way it all went down and happened? no, do i support it? no. But did they manage to work it in semi-realistically and make sense of it as well as tie it into past personal issues Bobby has had? YES...

Fan speculation was based on legit things that bobby has done or encountered in the past.. not some random "ship" where people just want him to be gay...

so no, i can't outright call this one a Retcon.. it wasn't just a random thing out of the blue.

thats exactly what a retcon is, you know an alteration of something previously established.

As for the bolded....like what? You keep citing this but are these legit pieces evidence of Bobby being gay since his debut?

 

[Mike Murdock]

I think it was a retcon, but it doesn't mean it was a retcon unsupported by what happened in the past. Did I see it? Not really. But I do know a lot of people in fact did (so much so that I wasn't shocked when I heard about it).

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I think its incredibly weak an out of touch with reality to suggest dating women or thinking you have feelings for them means you're straight...

Sexuality is far more complex than that

I know i was head over heels in love with a girl before i came out, i just didnt want to sleep with her like i did men. I wanted to marry her and magically have kids.. never thought about sex with her.

Im just saying there was no lapse in believability in this.. regardless of what one calls it.

I feel like their needs to be two different terms for retcons.. ones that alter the past, and ones that just add a new aspect to it.

This situation didnt change his past, just add a new layer of subtext that was already suggested

 

[JewishHobbit]

I think you're overstating things about there being consistent rules of timetravel. That criticism is much broader than Marvel, but I don't think it's unusual for the rules to fit the plot.

I'm not talking about time travel outside of Marvel. I'm talking strictly within the Marvel Universe. Divergents and creating alternate timelines is how Marvel's always handled time travel. To go back on that now for the sake of making a story work is slopping, weak, and just bad storytelling.

 

[def28]

So the new Horsemen look to be [BLACKOUT]Colossus, Deadpool, Moonknight and Venom.
[/BLACKOUT]

 

[Sithborg]

Hey, I have a writer acknowledging that the first Dark Riders were Inhumans. This makes me strangely happy. Especially with the current status quo. I kind of like the potential of the new status quo, though whoever came up with the name M-pox needs to be fired.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

deadpool is a horesmen? bleh......