You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 10

[Ryan]

Oh I absolutely think there's some truth to Nolan not wanting to make it. Granted it's not that simple: You don't either "want" or "not want" to make a movie. I do think he "wanted" it enough to come back, but not enough to polish it like his other films. By the end he just feels exhausted. Apparently they took a break halfway through the script due to feeling they couldn't come up with anything (good). After the break Goyer came back with an idea for a Superman reboot. That I think epitomizes how "obligated" they felt to do this, for whatever reason.

It's amazing just how much of Nolan feels channelled into Bruce: A guy who's been out of the game for a while, is exhausted but everyone wants him to come back. He comes back for "one last mission", then passes the "mantle" to another guy who will do his own thing with it. Bruce's arc is more-or-less how Nolan comes off to me when watching the movie.

Nolan also doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to be stingy of a franchise like that. For one, he didn't know if he'd be back after Begins. WB initially just wanted him to get the franchise back on track and do it in a way anyone could continue it after that (that's why BB is the least aesthetically grounded of the three). Second, he's always had a "one movie at a time" mindset. Why would he interpret a bad sequel as it "tampering" his vision? Unless they got Lucas to do the DVDs, I don't see how that's possible.



Wouldn't that still count as him not wanting to make it? If ideally you don't wanna make another one but feel obligated to so someone doesn't "tamper with your baby", by definition your heart's not fully in it. At that point we're just arguing over semantics.

Given how rich the source material is, it's mind blowing how they couldn't come up with anything. No wonder they went with something as rote as a bigger, louder LOS rehash. I can't believe someone who was so keenly aware of Return of the Jedi's mistakes would repeat it.

I completely agree with these posts. I see a lot of similarities between tdkr and rotj although I enjoy rotj much more. For that reason the OT remains my favourite trilogy overall with tdkt coming in a close second.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

RotJ is trash. I revisited that thing months ago, and it was brutal. It should never be included in the same sentence as TDKR.

All the scenes with Vader and Luke takes a steaming turd on TDKR. The rest of it is on par with the Telia stuff.

 

[shauner111]

Wronnnnnnnnnng.

But ya I like the Vader and Luke scenes at the end. SOME of it. It's still a turd ferguson of a movie. I don't have much of an issue with the Talia stuff, other than some bad takes maybe? TDKR makes Jedi (both Jedi movies) look like a bad Saturday morning cartoon. The Star Wars trilogy is not even in the top 5 best trilogies out there, nevermind a contender for best. Godfather 3 ruined the idea of that series of films becoming the greatest trilogy of all time. But even Godfather 3 was just "average" and more of a disappointment coming after two masterpieces. I'd still put that trilogy over OG Star Wars.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Bane's plan was fundamentally no different than what Joker and Ra's were doing. They each had essentially the same goal for Gotham: to have it destroy itself from within. The difference was in the method and motivation. If bringing the LOS back is lazy storytelling in and of itself, then so is "these people will eat each other" mirroring "this city will tear itself apart through fear".

Talia (Bane is irrelevant) wanted to incinerate Gotham for the same reason as Ras. Joker wanted moral dissolution. Please don't try to tell me they are the same.

Method counts for a lot. If you remove method most villains fall into like two categories.

Point 3: One is zombified Gotham eating each other's limbs. The other is a boat full of people potentially living their entire lives with the moral carnage of murder. I am stunned you think the two are of a kind beyond the farcical surface.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Wronnnnnnnnnng.

But ya I like the Vader and Luke scenes at the end. SOME of it. It's still a turd ferguson of a movie. I don't have much of an issue with the Talia stuff, other than some bad takes maybe? TDKR makes Jedi (both Jedi movies) look like a bad Saturday morning cartoon. The Star Wars trilogy is not even in the top 5 best trilogies out there, nevermind a contender for best. Godfather 3 ruined the idea of that series of films becoming the greatest trilogy of all time. But even Godfather 3 was just "average" and more of a disappointment coming after two masterpieces. I'd still put that trilogy over OG Star Wars.

You are way off the spectrum boy. Rises will never measure up to Return on any real level.

 

[Ryan]

Talia (Bane is irrelevant) wanted to incinerate Gotham for the same reason as Ras. Joker wanted moral dissolution. Please don't try to tell me they are the same.

Method counts for a lot. If you remove method most villains fall into like two categories.

Point 3: One is zombified Gotham eating each other's limbs. The other is a boat full of people potentially living their entire lives with the moral carnage of murder. I am stunned you think the two are of a kind beyond the farcical surface.

I think method is huge. So many heroes or villains have been created over time but its the method by which that makes some so unique that they succeed in garnering interest. Great post. The days of having a 'villain' simply being impressive because he's bigger/smarter than the hero stopped working for me after Ivan Drago lost to Rocky.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

The source material being rich doesn't automatically mean it's easy to crack a story for a film, particularly a trilogy-capper which are always the toughest nuts to crack.

I also think it's pretty reductive to say the story was just a LOS rehash. The villains' plans were very different from Ra's'. If it were just an entirely different organization headed by Bane, would that have made it more original? I think connecting it to the LOS just helped tie the trilogy together and also added some consequences for Bruce's decision to kill Ra's. It also worked with the legacy themes in the film. I certainly don't think it was a case of, "Welp, we can't think of anything, guess we'll just redo Batman Begins". It clearly suited the story they chose to tell on a number of fronts.

Besides, the second Death Star was the least of ROTJ's issues.

1. I mean, the Dark Knight was no dead end. The story opened up to limitless potential. And Nolan couldn't come up with anything inspired. Even the gentlemen on these boards came up with far better ****.

2. It's the same. Except, instead of being an awesome zombie dystopia, it's just a generic doomsday scenario. Bleh.

Bane's League was aesthetically unrecognizable to Ra's anyways. Why not? Should've just made him an independent character.

Or, scrap Bane and just do Talia, if Nolan wanted to preserve the legacy theme. Obviously with something more unique than what he actually came up with.

I don't think the story was done any favors. Bane neutered Talia and vice versa.

 

[shauner111]

You are way off the spectrum boy. Rises will never measure up to Return on any real level.

On which level can Return best Rises? Acting is atrocious. The first half hour, at least, is nothing but bubblegum nonsense with fake backrounds, no reason to exploit their female character/actress other than to...exploit her, dumb new characters created for toys. Nothing really bold in a narrative sense or even technically. The whole movie was made for money, because of the success of the previous entries. Rises was at least one man's vision. He didn't have to make the sequel WB wanted, and quite frankly, the studio did NOT get the movie they wanted. They only embraced it because it was Nolan: he doesn't go over budget, he gives them the best return they can imagine whether it's a comic book movie, a science fiction hail mary, or a world war 2 movie without Americans released in the summer season. Jedi ended just the way the studio wanted, where every hero was alive incase they needed them in the future with no real closure outside of the villain situation. Some actors knew this and didn't like the direction themselves. Rises ended with a conclusion and the studio couldn't just make a fourth, which probably annoyed them to no end. But they pushed through because of who they were dealing with, and the success in the end.

Cinematography? Chase sequences? Special effects for the time? Direction? Besides nostalgia, or the "i had FUN" argument...i can't think of anything that would make Return of the Jedi so strong that The Dark Knight Rises couldn't measure up.

Edit: Also, not to take shots bro, but i'm sure in a few years you'll love this movie again and then a year later you'll go back to disliking it & calling it unoriginal or whatevs. LOL there seems to be a pattern here. You revisit the movie, block out the fandom, and end up enjoying it quite a bit. Then you spend months on here where fanboys tear this movie to shreds, and then it seems like you start giving in and joining the trend. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Acting is on the level of ANH only Empire has good acting from the OT. And nothing is as bad as Talia's death. And what about the first hour of Rises? It drones on and on and no. And it was so damn long. I still can't get over how boring the first act is. Female characters? This is the same franchise that had Rachel Dawes. Nothing bold narratively about Rises either. Star Wars is the vision of Lucas. Come on bro. Direction? The scenes with Luke and Vader are better shot and directed than anything from Rises. Really? John William's music mops the floor with Rises.

Also, not to take shots bro, but i'm sure in a few years you'll love this movie again and then a year later you'll go back to disliking it & calling it unoriginal or whatevs.

As long as it's not up against superior films.

I do enjoy it, even with its flaws.

 

[titansupes]

Oof, Tacit's finally gone off the deep end (even if I love RotJ).

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Oof, Tacit's finally gone off the deep end (even if I love RotJ).

Wrong.

 

[shauner111]

Acting is on the level of ANH only Empire has good acting from the OT. And nothing is as bad as Talia's death. And what about the first hour of Rises? It drones on and on and no. And it was so damn long. I still can't get over how boring the first act is. Female characters? This is the same franchise that had Rachel Dawes. Nothing bold narratively about Rises either. Star Wars is the vision of Lucas. Come on bro. Direction? The scenes with Luke and Vader are better shot and directed than anything from Rises. Really? John William's music mops the floor with Rises.



As long as it's not up against superior films.

I do enjoy it, even with its flaws.

Aiight. As long as you're not constantly doing a 180 every time months pass, after one of your new viewings lol.

Talia's death is literally two seconds. Unfair comparison, no?

Hmm, i don't mind if you're a bit bored with the first hour. I'll tell you what though. I kept turning Jedi off, especially the first act of that movie. It's literally about nothing. And it tries to be cute or funny, and i can't sit through it without wanting to bang my head. I find the whole movie boring. The first hour of Rises may bore some, but i love it even more than the rest of the movie. The amazing action in the first 5 minutes, and score. The ominous tone and compelling setup of Bruce, fun introduction scenes with Selina that i find very effective, completely in character and even funny without going over the top. Everything in the parking lot/bar shootout (involving Selina, Stryver, Gordon and Blake) which leads to the sewers with Bane and Gordon getting caught up in that. It's all incredibly well done. I'm ALWAYS locked in to the movie so much during that. I understand getting sleepy with Bruce meeting Lucius, Bruce going to the hospital, the dance between Selina/Bruce, etc. But i find it way more compelling than the stupidity and kiddie crap in RotJ. And since we're talking about the first hour. How can anyone diss the incredible action when Batman comes out of hiding, going after Bane's men? Subjectivity i guess, but DAAAAMN SON!

To me there's no contest. Jedi's first act is the worst.

Rachel is not in Rises, unfair to use in a argument. But i will say, the female characters (Selina specifically) are handled better than the female characters in Begins and Knight. And yes, Rises treats their females better than Jedi.

Score? Luke and Vader scenes better directed? Fair enough. I disagree though lol. If i need my Star Wars fix, visually, or sonically, i'll go to the first two. Rises has perhaps my favorite score of the three. I respect John Williams, but i don't see him as the God that fans make him out to be. It's never been my cup of tea, outside of some great themes that he's created in the earlier Star Wars movies or Jurassic Park. I'll take Zimmer's rhythms and motifs over the happy orchestral sing alongs from Williams.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

The Dark Knight Rises > Return of the Jedi

I have no problem with anything involving Miranda Tate/Talia AlGhul.

I wish they didn't choose Hayden Christensen ghost for the special edition.

 

[Shikamaru]

Rises has more in common with Last Jedi than Return. The criticisms are about the same.

If anything, that's kinda the problem with Rises as a sequel. It's Bruce's Last Jedi. It feels like a quadrilogy, not a trilogy. BB is his ANH, TDK is his Empire, where his RotJ? It wouldn't just be like seeing Luke for the first time since Empire, it would be like if Return and Luke's entire history in between didn't happen. That's why the eight-year gap doesn't feel like a natural lead-up from the first two films. We didn't need another film per se, but the lack of a Return equivalent in Bruce's history is what causes the disconnecting feeling between BB/TDK and Rises.

 

[The Batman]

Rises dumps all over Return of the Jedi. The only thing ROTJ has going for it is the Luke/Vader/Emperor storyline, everything else is not really worth watching, IMO.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Oof, Tacit's finally gone off the deep end (even if I love RotJ).

Yeeeah, even if we all (well most of us) love Return of the Jedi, he's making it sound like the film was directed by P.T. Anderson, lol.

 

[shauner111]

It's really not well directed, at all. To put that over Nolan is hilarious to me. I agree with The Batman about TDKR/RotJ. Shika also brings up an interesting comparison that makes more sense. I don't think it's as jarring as what he's making it out to be, but i see what he's getting at. The Last Jedi is not a good film in my opinion. I don't care for it that much, but it's leagues above Return of the Jedi.

 

[Brother Jack]

Talia (Bane is irrelevant) wanted to incinerate Gotham for the same reason as Ras. Joker wanted moral dissolution. Please don't try to tell me they are the same.

Bane/Talia wanted to destroy Gotham for personal vengeance as much as to complete Ra's work. There was nothing personal about the LOS' original plot. Bruce was involved more or less by happenstance (being in the right prison at the right time); Ra's would have infiltrated and used the fear toxin to raze Gotham regardless. But Bane and Talia had a specific vendetta against Bruce that motivated every action they took.

With Joker, the difference is in the method as I said, but the end result is still a Gotham that has destroyed itself. Joker's weapons were chaos and, ironically, Batman himself; Ra's weapons were the fear toxin and the monorail (a corruption of the symbol of Thomas Wayne's altruism by his Bruce's Bad Dad); and Bane's were militaristic strength and the fusion reactor (Bruce's attempt to emulate Thomas corrupted once again by his figurative brother).

You're right that they are very different. My point was that when boiled down their end goals are very much the same. One could call that lazy and redundant storytelling; I prefer to see it as similar scenarios examined from different angles, paralleling and contrasting depending on the villain, his motive, and his tools.

Point 3: One is zombified Gotham eating each other's limbs. The other is a boat full of people potentially living their entire lives with the moral carnage of murder. I am stunned you think the two are of a kind beyond the farcical surface.

I wasn't referring specifically to the ferries because that was a microcosm case study of the larger thing Joker was trying to do: driving the city into anarchy. Something that actually does happen under Bane's occupation, albeit in a more hierarchical and militant way than it would've had Joker not been stopped.

 

[Ryan]

At Tacit pointed out its about the method and even the execution. I remember reading a spoiler before TDK came out that the finale would involve 2 ferry boats and the threat of blowing each other up. I remember thinking how boring or typical that sounded, which it was....on paper. In the film, Nolan did an excellent job of bringing suspense to that scene and many others throughout the dark knight. I never found that in Rises. The only 2 scenes I felt any sort of tension was the 1st Batman/Bane fight and briefly in the bar scene with Kyle.

 

[BatLobster]

For the record, I still love ROTJ. The Luke/Emperor/Vader stuff is my favorite sequence in the whole saga. The space battle is the best in Star Wars IMO. I even think the Jabba's palace stuff is fun. But then there's the issue that they dedicate all that effort to save Han, only to give him nothing interesting to do in the film. Leia too, really.

As a film, TDKR is just better constructed. In terms of plot, in terms of theme, in terms of challenging its characters. There's a lot more substance there. The clincher for me is that it is just way more ambitious in terms of scope and ending things on an epic note that raises the stakes. ROTJ is pretty much a whole lot of filler leading up to an exciting climax. That throne room sequence deserved a better movie around it. Even so, I still do like the movie. I just had to come to terms with a lot of the flaws my child-brain never noticed to learn to like it again.

Still, shauner- you still have to respect 'Wars. Its impact on cinema is immeasurable, and the fact that we're even having a discussion comparing TDKT and SW's part 3s speaks highly on the standard all of us are holding TDKT to.

 

[shauner111]

Not really. I respect and enjoy tbe first two. As a trilogy it's overrated. People hold every new trilogy to that OG Star Wars standard, and it's ridiculous, because it's as if the vast majority have only seen Star Wars and Lord of the Rings trilogies or something lol. RotJ is a terrible movie. A couple of neat sections doesn't make it better than "terrible".. It only stops me from giving it less than a 30 % rating.

You know what doesn't help? Seeing the Last Jedi and realizing they haven't done anything interesting with this franchise since 1980. There was an attempt with the new one, but it was just stupidity and way more plot holes compared to Rises. Zero progression with their main characters. Bad comic relief and more characters created for the sole purpose of selling toys. Rises was better than the old Jedi and the new Jedi. There's also more emotional weight. As cool as tbe Luke and Vader fight was in Return, the NOOooooOo! takes me out of that moment, instantly. The Jabba intro is not just 5 minutes, it goes on forever, and I always tell myself "I want my time back" after I finish that half hour of silly boredom.

Bring on Tarantino's Star Trek. Star Wars has nothing exciting to offer. The way I feel now about Star Wars, is how I felt about Star Trek after "Into Darkness". At least some fresh ideas will be injected into one of these space properties.

 

[Herofan]

TDKR makes Jedi (both Jedi movies) look like a bad Saturday morning cartoon.

Jedi long before and aside from TDKR felt pretty Saturday morning cartoon-which doesn't actually mean bad.

Cinematography? Chase sequences? Special effects for the time? Direction? Besides nostalgia, or the "i had FUN" argument...i can't think of anything that would make Return of the Jedi so strong that The Dark Knight Rises couldn't measure up.

Special effects are no small part of a film. Jedi's special effects, its action scenes overall were great for the time and also still so today. RotJ and TDKR both in part attempt to be spectacle and how well, impressively, entertainingly they do so, how much fun they are in that, is a big part of the overall quality.

I also think that on the one hand it's disappointing and yet OTOH impressive that the plot and tone is pretty much between the level of ANH and TESB, backing down a bit from TESB but hardly ignoring it, instead plausibly following it but mostly in a different, admittedly lighter way. TDKR, on the other hand, very much follows up on TDK's Dent plot while pretty much ignoring its Joker plot, understandable but odd and fairly unsatisfying.

 

[BatLobster]

Nah, I think it's still plenty worthy of respect as a trilogy. The first Star Wars essentially created the modern blockbuster. And similarly, the Star Wars trilogy really set the model for a big action-adventure trilogy that tells one big story/mythology. That really hadn't even been done before. Even if you aren't the biggest fan of the films, or think ROTJ sucks- you still have to acknowledge the trilogy charted a path that many franchises have followed. It set the template. Hence, worthy of respect. Not to mention the sheer impact on pop culture.

Sure, they're far from perfect as films- I love to pick at 'em myself, because there's plenty of silly things and it's fun. But as a film lover, I will vigorously defend their iconic status. John Williams' scores alone put them on another tier compared to most blockbusters being made today.

I have always argued that with TDKT, it forms a whole greater than the sum of its parts and I also think that's true for Star Wars. That's the same reason some people who find TDKR to be the weakest film, still can acknowledge that TDKT as a whole was a great achievement.

I actually agree that TDKR is a stronger movie than both ROTJ and TLJ (and I like TLJ), but I'm drawing the line at saying the original Star Wars trilogy isn't worthy of respect. I'm not going to be one of those annoying people who says "you MUST love Star Wars!" cause I get that it doesn't resonate with everybody the same and I know what it's like thinking a pop culture phenomenon is overrated (*cough* Stranger Things)...but looking at it as a film fan, they are clearly an indispensable part of cinema history, flaws and all. Hence worthy of respect, whether you like the films or not or think they're overrated.

We won't speak of the "Nooooo", because that's a 2011 Lucas edition. That ruined one of my favorite movie moments of all time.

 

[Shikamaru]

The only thing ROTJ has going for it is the Luke/Vader/Emperor storyline, everything else is not really worth watching, IMO.

That's why I find Return better. The hero and villain(s) drive the stories and get me invested in them. If that aspect doesn't work, it's hard to get invested behind everything else. Everything else just becomes great ideas that lack good execution, which is what I think Rises is.