The Dark Knight Rises Young Ra's Al Ghul - Does it mean flashback, or something else?

[The_Raganork]

I was just thinking, does anyone else think the reveal of Pence playing a young Ra's surprise anyone? You would think Nolan would want something like this kept secret, yet it was revealed the same time Pence was cast.

And it's hard trying to make Ra's relevent in this movie without Bane in some way. I mean why else would he be in this movie? It's got to have something to do with Bane.

Doctor Jones...WHY?!

Did we not all see BB, Ra's is THE character that defines Bruce in the present time. He made Bruce into the man he is.

I said this before he is like Bruce's second father and I have a great belief this film is going to be about which Father Bruce is going to decide to be the son of.

The Man who gave him virtuosity or

The Man who gave him the means to fight injustice?

So it's no surprise to me that a film that features a character who is going to try to convince Bruce to be more philanthropic like his father (Tate) also would include the character who saw Bruce's father as someone weak and urged Bruce to do everything that was necessary to go the distance that his father didn't.

Because a few comics feature Bane and Ra's in the same storyline doesn't mean there isn't another option to have a character that is (so far) STRICTLY a Bruce character be about Bruce.

I'm not saying that he won't have anything to do with Bane, or that he won't have a lot to do with Bane but, this assumption that it can be nothing else always shocks me as Batman Begins is so STRONG in it's implications of Bruce's parts and then Bruce's training.

The Dark Knight Rises

What does that mean? Bruce has run from his League of Shadows heritage because of the fear toxin disaster and TDK showed us (by not showing us) That his parents murder's have taken a side bar to his having to use Wayne tech to make Batman stronger, faster, smarter.

He has to marry those ideas; he has to bring back his Parent's death to continue with his virtue and confront his issue with Ra's and the league of Shadows to remember why he joined them in the first place, what they taught him directly and what they taught him via his confrontation with them.

 

[Doctor Jones]

So something like that would be separate along with Bane's own story? But that still doesn't explain why they're showing a young Ra's. What does a young Ra's have to do with this film? If they were going to do what you said, you could easily have Neeson's Ra's for that. But why a young Ra's? What does this signify?

It's all speculative right now and still very early in the game, and it might become clearer when footage comes out, but I'm still trying to figure out the significance of having a young Ra's in the plot.

 

[The_Raganork]

So something like that would be separate along with Bane's own story? But that still doesn't explain why they're showing a young Ra's. What does a young Ra's have to do with this film? If they were going to do what you said, you could easily have Neeson's Ra's for that. But why a young Ra's? What does this signify?

It's all speculative right now and still very early in the game, and it might become clearer when footage comes out, but I'm still trying to figure out the significance of having a young Ra's in the plot.

something I've always explored while watching these films is that at the end of BB Batman says: "I'm not going to kill you...but I don't have to save you"

This is very indicative of the LoS training; it's something I can see Ra's saying; in fact he has a similar line:

"You burned my house and left me for dead, consider us even"

What if Ra's was alive during TDK; what would he think of Batman's place in Gotham? Isn't this kind of what he wanted? Batman became gotham's biggest hope and it all comes crashing down, the one person who can protect them is in their crosshairs, if he's destroyed by the people of Gotham then that's it.

"When the Chips are down These Civilized people, will eat each other"

Or eat him? Turning on Batman IS turning on Gotham, surely they don't have a choice given the information they have but:

"sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded"

Shouldn't Bruce/Bat's faith in his city be rewarded? and if it isn't; isn't this Ra's ultimate win?

Now how does that fit in with Young Ra's?

Seeing some of Ra's motives, some of who he was to become the man we know in BB might serve as some insight to who Batman is becoming, a parallel story of sorts.

I don't consider Ra's evil; he's willing to do things for the "greater good" that many people wouldn't; in certain situations, this may make him the hero. He gave Bruce purpose, a new life, turned him from a mourning child to a powerful man.

Exploring briefly what makes Ra's the way he was, what made the man who taught Bruce how to fight crime, might show us more clearly where Batman is failing and what he can do to "Rise"

If we know more about the creator we may learn more about the creation and if Batman can avoid the same falls that turned Ra's Al Ghul into the leader of a group of assassins then maybe he can become something more.

His goal in BB was to become a Symbol, infinite, eternal, incorruptible.

He failed at this, the vision of Batman is tarnished; so maybe its time to look back at the ideals that made Batman in the first place to help him heal those wounds and become the Batman he intended to be.

 

[SentinelMind]

Liam Neeson is back? Is this a credible source?

http://www.movieweb.com/news/the-dark-knight-rises-features-a-resurrected-ras-al-ghul

 

[Doctor Jones]

something I've always explored while watching these films is that at the end of BB Batman says: "I'm not going to kill you...but I don't have to save you"

This is very indicative of the LoS training; it's something I can see Ra's saying; in fact he has a similar line:



What if Ra's was alive during TDK; what would he think of Batman's place in Gotham? Isn't this kind of what he wanted? Batman became gotham's biggest hope and it all comes crashing down, the one person who can protect them is in their crosshairs, if he's destroyed by the people of Gotham then that's it.



Or eat him? Turning on Batman IS turning on Gotham, surely they don't have a choice given the information they have but:



Shouldn't Bruce/Bat's faith in his city be rewarded? and if it isn't; isn't this Ra's ultimate win?

Now how does that fit in with Young Ra's?

Seeing some of Ra's motives, some of who he was to become the man we know in BB might serve as some insight to who Batman is becoming, a parallel story of sorts.

I don't consider Ra's evil; he's willing to do things for the "greater good" that many people wouldn't; in certain situations, this may make him the hero. He gave Bruce purpose, a new life, turned him from a mourning child to a powerful man.

Exploring briefly what makes Ra's the way he was, what made the man who taught Bruce how to fight crime, might show us more clearly where Batman is failing and what he can do to "Rise"

If we know more about the creator we may learn more about the creation and if Batman can avoid the same falls that turned Ra's Al Ghul into the leader of a group of assassins then maybe he can become something more.

His goal in BB was to become a Symbol, infinite, eternal, incorruptible.

He failed at this, the vision of Batman is tarnished; so maybe its time to look back at the ideals that made Batman in the first place to help him heal those wounds and become the Batman he intended to be.

That's an interesting idea, but you're going to tell Bruce/Batman's story. Selina, Bane, and young Ra's story? I really don't want to see flashbacks of him starting the League. The important thing is to keep the ambiguity of Ra's and the possbility of his immortality. Showing a young Ra's for a flashback with little to no dialogue makes more sense to me. And obviously, during this time, Bruce wouldn't have interacted with him. And with your idea, how are you suppose to fit in that many stories and fitin a parallel story with a young Ra's that could break the ambiguity of him in BB?

 

[The_Raganork]

That's an interesting idea, but you're going to tell Bruce/Batman's story. Selina, Bane, and young Ra's story? I really don't want to see flashbacks of him starting the League. The important thing is to keep the ambiguity of Ra's and the possbility of his immortality. Showing a young Ra's for a flashback with little to no dialogue makes more sense to me. And obviously, during this time, Bruce wouldn't have interacted with him. And with your idea, how are you suppose to fit in that many stories and fitin a parallel story with a young Ra's that could break the ambiguity of him in BB?

Ra's motives can be clear, how he goes about things still stays mysterious. I agree his mysteriousness should be kept because that's the appeal of the character.

Young Ra's doesn't need to be a huge thing and If I were doing the film I'd fragment it throughout how long the film is.

What we're exploring are ideas from Young Ra's and Ideals he may have held at some point and then watching the mainstory and seeing where they fit in with each other.

It won't be an origins story at all, it'll be a perfectly integrated mirrored story. While the main story is bombastic and action packed, we have these flashbacks that are calmer showing us the creator of Batman, and by watching this in conjunction with our current Batman we can see what Batman is doing right and what he's doing wrong.

since I used the Father Analogy before, think of it as similar to the scenes with Thomas in BB, they were very quick but, they held a lot of meat. As contrast this film can do the same with Ra's.

By watching both we're forced to examine Batman's actions in comparison with Ra's and how Batman is like Ra's Al Ghul ultimately, something he very much wanted to avoid in BB.

In BB Ra's explained he tried to destroy Gotham through despair via the economy

In TDK Batman tried to save Gotham through hope Via politics by LYING about Harvey's involvement.

They may be trying to achieve two different things but, are these not two sides of the same coin?

 

[twostep]

Bane does not have to be tied to The League of Shadows/Ra's.

What The League wanted was for Gotham to burn so that it could be rebuilt. In their eyes, it was a great city that was poisoned beyond repair. They chose Bruce Wayne/Batman to be their champion for that specific task.

I think it's possible that Bane could appease the League in burning Gotham without ever even knowing the League exists. His motivations could be entirely separate - a quest for pure power (to be Gotham's King).

It would leave open the interesting opportunity for the League to actually reunite with Batman to help cleanse Gotham of Bane.

 

[twostep]

Ra's motives can be clear, how he goes about things still stays mysterious. I agree his mysteriousness should be kept because that's the appeal of the character.

Young Ra's doesn't need to be a huge thing and If I were doing the film I'd fragment it throughout how long the film is.

What we're exploring are ideas from Young Ra's and Ideals he may have held at some point and then watching the mainstory and seeing where they fit in with each other.

It won't be an origins story at all, it'll be a perfectly integrated mirrored story. While the main story is bombastic and action packed, we have these flashbacks that are calmer showing us the creator of Batman, and by watching this in conjunction with our current Batman we can see what Batman is doing right and what he's doing wrong.

since I used the Father Analogy before, think of it as similar to the scenes with Thomas in BB, they were very quick but, they held a lot of meat. As contrast this film can do the same with Ra's.

By watching both we're forced to examine Batman's actions in comparison with Ra's and how Batman is like Ra's Al Ghul ultimately, something he very much wanted to avoid in BB.

In BB Ra's explained he tried to destroy Gotham through despair via the economy

In TDK Batman tried to save Gotham through hope Via politics by LYING about Harvey's involvement.

They may be trying to achieve two different things but, are these not two sides of the same coin?

Exactly. Very well put. As Thomas is the father of Bruce Wayne, Ra's is the father of Batman.

Ra's is similar to Batman through and through. The reintroduction of him into the series will only serve to highlight that even more.

 

[The_Raganork]

Exactly. Very well put. As Thomas is the father of Bruce Wayne, Ra's is the father of Batman.

Ra's is similar to Batman through and through. The reintroduction of him into the series will only serve to highlight that even more.

Yes; in a previous post I mentioned that I think this movie will be the battle of the son.

which Father will Bruce/Bat choose?

The one who gave him virtuosity or the one who gave him the means to fight injustice.

Is Batman Bruce Wayne's alternate Identity? or is Bruce Wayne Batman's Alternate Identity?

Rachel said it perfect in BB

This is your mask

He has to rectify that.

 

[Kynergy]

Raganork, I think you need to make a thread devoted to your idea of how Ra's isn't only connected to Bane in TDKR. I think I'v seen you explain it 4 times in the short time I'v been on this forum.

I do have to say that it does make pretty good sense. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Ra's being involved with Bane entirely. I know you haven't, I'm just saying that while this movie could bring back Batman's reason's for doing what he does, Ra's could in some way still be involved with Bane. Though the idea of Bane being a member of the League of Shadows makes me sick, it may end up happening. (But I hope it doesn't )

 

[The_Raganork]

Raganork, I think you need to make a thread devoted to your idea of how Ra's isn't only connected to Bane in TDKR. I think I'v seen you explain it 4 times in the short time I'v been on this forum.

I do have to say that it does make pretty good sense. But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Ra's being involved with Bane entirely. I know you haven't, I'm just saying that while this movie could bring back Batman's reason's for doing what he does, Ra's could in some way still be involved with Bane. Though the idea of Bane being a member of the League of Shadows makes me sick, it may end up happening. (But I hope it doesn't )

Yeah, I've said it a lot it seems to be seeping in a bit.

Yeah, I in no way think my idea is going to happen totally. And I never will rule out a Bane/Ra's storyline.

I just play the opposition because a few people on this forum cannot seem to imagine the opposite; I'm here to show them it is possible for a non Ra's/Bane storyline.

Now If I could convince people that Catwoman will hold a mirror up via her actions and force him to do the right thing.

 

[Gotham Knight]

It's going to be a flashback.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

I believe in Ra's Al Ghul :P
Has anyone else noticed that Bane's mask looks a lot like a league of shadows mask? I think that resemblance was the inspiration for his mask and hope we'll see Young Ra's training Bane

as well as Liam Neeson returning for some action.

It's really exciting to read all the possibilities everyone has presented regarding Ra's role in the film.

 

[TheBatman072]

I believe in Ra's Al Ghul :P
Has anyone else noticed that Bane's mask looks a lot like a league of shadows mask? I think that resemblance was the inspiration for his mask and hope we'll see Young Ra's training Bane

as well as Liam Neeson returning for some action.

It's really exciting to read all the possibilities everyone has presented regarding Ra's role in the film.

It doesn't look a lot like the LoS gasmask. It doesn't even look a little like it.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

Sure it does, just with some tubes and some weird cuts and that thing going down his head. It's not like Bane grabbed a masked and added all of those details but rather the same people that fictitiously made the ninja mask are also responsible for Bane's. I may be wrong.

Alright so they're not that similar. At the very least I think Bane's mask was intended to echo a ninja mask.

 

[TheBatman072]

Alright so they're not that similar. At the very least I think Bane's mask was intended to echo a ninja mask.

Ninja mask eh? You mean the classic one that everybody thinks about when they think of a ninja mask?

Like this one?

 

[miggizle85]

Other than the fact that they cover up the person's mouth and have some form of head strap, those two look nothing alike.

Sorry man just call em like I see em.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I've never noticed that the strap goes over his ears like that! Looks uncomfortable.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

Ninja mask eh? You mean the classic one that everybody thinks about when they think of a ninja mask?

Like this one?

No, I meant the real ones you see in documentaries

 

[TheBatman072]

No, I meant the real ones you see in documentaries

Still dissimilar!

This is fun!

 

[ThePhantasm]

Bane's looks more like a muzzle than a mask. It completely covers his nose and mouth.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

Other than the fact that they cover up the person's mouth and have some form of head strap, those two look nothing alike.

Sorry man just call em like I see em.

No need to apologize, I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[TheBatman072]

Bane's looks more like a muzzle than a mask. It completely covers his nose and mouth.

Yeah that's already been covered. It wouldn't be that elaborate if it was a muzzle.

It's some kind of gas/liquid apparatus.

It's just easier to say "Bane's mask."

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah that's already been covered. It wouldn't be that elaborate if it was a muzzle.

It's some kind of gas/liquid apparatus.

It's just easier to say "Bane's mask."

I know, I was saying that to highlight the difference between it and the LOS gasmask. I was describing looks, not function. I wasn't saying it was an actual muzzle - that would be kinda stupid.

 

[thedarks0ldier]

Still dissimilar!

This is fun!

I guess I am paddling with one oar. I'll concede.

On a side note, what if Bane has nothing to do with the League of Shadows?