Justice League Zack Snyder Directing Justice League - Part 5

[Arachnerd]

No no, I'm aware that there are plenty of people who like bad movies. I could name a few objectively bad movies that I enjoy too, BvS isn't one of them. Either way acting like WB not letting Snyder finish JL off was the problem is ridiculous.

I see you're unfamiliar with the concept of subjectivity. Do you wish to get off your high horse, prince Havoc of Randomville?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's all the same over and over and over again... Some people thought The Black Suit deleted scene was a boring filler with Clark walking about in the ship, some people got teary-eyed just from watching that one short clip... the visuals, the atmosphere, the pacing, that look on Cavill's face (and I don't mean there's not that crazy moustache removal CGI), the symbolism where he turns away from the black suit and his face leaves the shadows and enters the light, that Snyder's visual storytelling, it was the moment where Kal El turns into what Jor El wanted him to be, just in case people did not realize that (and yeah, they cut it out, of course, because we needed more cringy dialogues and jokes ), the music... it was just fantastic. Yet some people say it was a boring filler scene, go figure...

Same goes for BvS, some people consider it "poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling", some people think it's the exact opposite. If you are really interested in opinions of others, go read BvS and JL threads that debate it, at this point it's superfluous to start a new discussion on this topic after all those incredibly long essays that were written already discussing the topic into quite a vast depth.

And I for one thought the characters were handled appropriately. Lex was an intelligent philanthropist businessman on the outside, such a devilish cold-hearted schemer, an egomaniac full of complexes on the inside. And of course had a problematic relationship with his father. Lex in the nutshell.
Clark was not The Superman until the very end, don't forget Man of Steel is a movie about a man who would one day become the Superman, hence the title, the character, etc., it's a 3 movie journey for him, now that's what I call a trilogy. It's one long cohesive story. From a young man who's perplexed and does not understand his place in the world to the ideal of hope. The only comparable trilogy is Nolan's TDKT, where Bruce goes from a crime fighter to the symbol he always wanted Batman to be. Plus Supes sacrifices his life for the humanity, the most Supermanish thing ever right after saving a cat from a tree. t:
BvS' Bruce was a darker take on the character, it's not Nolan's retired after some years Batman, it's an older Batman who's been a vigilante for over 20 years, slowly slipping into his obsessive and damaged self. Loved every aspect of that, how the story unfolds, from the Martha trauma, through the Metropolis battle, futility of his endeavour, Lex's machinations, into his ultimate redemption.
DD was a genetically-engineered Superman's murdered.
Lois was an investigative journalist.

F************* I got baited into this again.

And the same thing applies for both movies, BvS and JL were so f***ed up by the studio. We know that the original cut of BvS was 4 hours long to tell the whole story, and even the 31 minutes of UE made a huge difference (you most probably don't want to put a 4 hour movie into the cinema but the UE should have been the theatrical version, the shorter version really damaged the movie). JL was supposed to be 3 hours long and we got only 2 hours. Plus, of course, it was heavily redone, rescored, etc.
The only thing you can raise against Snyder is, he does not think in the business terms, Watchmen, BvS, all 4 hour movies, JL nearly 3 hours, not pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc.

Omg, these debates again...

In that case, that scene is a failure. Because the idea was to allow Clark to be what he wanted to be, not influenced by the pre-determined nature that both of his parents were slave to.

 

[GothamBat]

In light of the whole Snyder being forced off the project news (or "fired" if you want to be a *****e) you really gotta hand it to Ray for that act of protest wearing the "I love Zack Snyder" shirt. The dude is a the definition of an unknown and a new-comer. His first actual movie role was his 5 second cameo in BVS. For him to be so defiant towards the studio he works for when he doesn't have a career to fall back on, just to perform an act of solidarity and recognition towards Zack is pretty moving. The studio could have seen his passive aggressive display and chosen to recast him. He did it anyway. He really is a good guy.

 

[HellYeah]

In light of the whole Snyder being forced off the project news (or "fired" if you want to be a *****e) you really gotta hand it to Ray for that act of protest wearing the "I love Zack Snyder" shirt. The dude is a the definition of an unknown and a new-comer. His first actual movie role was his 5 second cameo in BVS. For him to be so defiant towards the studio he works for when he doesn't have a career to fall back on, just to perform an act of solidarity and recognition towards Zack is pretty moving. The studio could have seen his passive aggressive display and chosen to recast him. He did it anyway. He really is a good guy.

He was by far the best thing about JL. While people are praising BP( which is great btw) for being the first successful badass black superhero, I think people forgot that Ray nails his role as Cyborg. He represents not just a definitive strong black superhero, but with the strength to overcome his own disabilities. I was so happy when I found out that he's gonna be in True Detective..

 

[GothamBat]

He was by far the best thing about JL. While people are praising BP( which is great btw) for being the first successful badass black superhero, I think people forgot that Ray nails his role as Cyborg. He represents not just a definitive strong black superhero, but with the strength to overcome his own disabilities. I was so happy when I found out that he's gonna be in True Detective..

Agreed. But I bet he was even better in the Snyder cut. The scenes with his civilian avatar visiting a nazi camp and controlling nukes, the intensity of his acting when he was ripping the motherboxes apart, the fact that he was probably the character who caught a glimpse of darkseid and the knightmare future, his double arm canons and full face armor, his would-be "darker" backstory and relationship with his dad, that scene in trailer 1 where he's crying for some reason... Imagine how great Ray/Cyborg is in the Snyder cut.

 

[heatvision38]

In that case, that scene is a failure. Because the idea was to allow Clark to be what he wanted to be, not influenced by the pre-determined nature that both of his parents were slave to.

It would be more accurate to say Clark became what Jor-El and Jonathan hoped he would be. That still implies choice. Clark chose it.

 

[random_havoc]

It's all the same over and over and over again... Some people thought The Black Suit deleted scene was a boring filler with Clark walking about in the ship, some people got teary-eyed just from watching that one short clip... the visuals, the atmosphere, the pacing, that look on Cavill's face (and I don't mean there's not that crazy moustache removal CGI), the symbolism where he turns away from the black suit and his face leaves the shadows and enters the light, that Snyder's visual storytelling, it was the moment where Kal El turns into what Jor El wanted him to be, just in case people did not realize that (and yeah, they cut it out, of course, because we needed more cringy dialogues and jokes ), the music... it was just fantastic. Yet some people say it was a boring filler scene, go figure...

Same goes for BvS, some people consider it "poorly written, poorly put together, and above all, fundamentally misunderstood the characters it was handling", some people think it's the exact opposite. If you are really interested in opinions of others, go read BvS and JL threads that debate it, at this point it's superfluous to start a new discussion on this topic after all those incredibly long essays that were written already discussing the topic into quite a vast depth.

And I for one thought the characters were handled appropriately. Lex was an intelligent philanthropist businessman on the outside, such a devilish cold-hearted schemer, an egomaniac full of complexes on the inside. And of course had a problematic relationship with his father. Lex in the nutshell.
Clark was not The Superman until the very end, don't forget Man of Steel is a movie about a man who would one day become the Superman, hence the title, the character, etc., it's a 3 movie journey for him, now that's what I call a trilogy. It's one long cohesive story. From a young man who's perplexed and does not understand his place in the world to the ideal of hope. The only comparable trilogy is Nolan's TDKT, where Bruce goes from a crime fighter to the symbol he always wanted Batman to be. Plus Supes sacrifices his life for the humanity, the most Supermanish thing ever right after saving a cat from a tree. t:
BvS' Bruce was a darker take on the character, it's not Nolan's retired after some years Batman, it's an older Batman who's been a vigilante for over 20 years, slowly slipping into his obsessive and damaged self. Loved every aspect of that, how the story unfolds, from the Martha trauma, through the Metropolis battle, futility of his endeavour, Lex's machinations, into his ultimate redemption.
DD was a genetically-engineered Superman's murdered.
Lois was an investigative journalist.

F************* I got baited into this again.

And the same thing applies for both movies, BvS and JL were so f***ed up by the studio. We know that the original cut of BvS was 4 hours long to tell the whole story, and even the 31 minutes of UE made a huge difference (you most probably don't want to put a 4 hour movie into the cinema but the UE should have been the theatrical version, the shorter version really damaged the movie). JL was supposed to be 3 hours long and we got only 2 hours. Plus, of course, it was heavily redone, rescored, etc.
The only thing you can raise against Snyder is, he does not think in the business terms, Watchmen, BvS, all 4 hour movies, JL nearly 3 hours, not pandering to the lowest common denominator, etc.

Omg, these debates again...

There's so much I disagree with here I don't even have the time to type it all up right now. Glad you were able to enjoy Snyder's stuff (I mean that sincerely). Critics and most viewers weren't able to unfortunately.

 

[random_havoc]

It would be more accurate to say Clark became what Jor-El and Jonathan hoped he would be. That still implies choice. Clark chose it.

Jonathan hoped Clark would be a piece of crap that let a busload of kids die just to hide from the world. That's one of the unforgivable sins of Man of Steel, they made Pa Kent into a piece of crap. He's the antithesis of Uncle Ben. It would be like if they made a new Spider-Man movie and Uncle Ben's words of wisdom to Peter were "f*** everybody else, just make sure you watch out for yourself".

 

[GothamBat]

Jonathan hoped Clark would be a piece of crap that let a busload of kids die just to hide from the world. That's one of the unforgivable sins of Man of Steel, they made Pa Kent into a piece of crap. He's the antithesis of Uncle Ben. It would be like if they made a new Spider-Man movie and Uncle Ben's words of wisdom to Peter were "f*** everybody else, just make sure you watch out for yourself".

Pa Kent said "maybe". He didn't say "yes". It was just a way to elucidate his uncertainty and his concern for both Clark and the human race itself. Clark revealing his true nature would have been such a huge paradigm shift that a bus full of children or, hell, even his own life doesn't compare. The fact that he applied the bus dilemma logic to his own life really sells it for me. I can see why some people thought it was cold for him but the fact that he applies it to himself and the fact that he's evoking deeper, more intricate existential dillemas and not "being a jerk-face"... That makes it pretty great to me. The way the tornado washes over him like an automatic car wash still looks really silly though... Visually.

 

[heatvision38]

Jonathan hoped Clark would be a piece of crap that let a busload of kids die just to hide from the world. That's one of the unforgivable sins of Man of Steel, they made Pa Kent into a piece of crap. He's the antithesis of Uncle Ben. It would be like if they made a new Spider-Man movie and Uncle Ben's words of wisdom to Peter were "f*** everybody else, just make sure you watch out for yourself".

I don't think we watched the same movie.

[YT]7C7EFrSQqlE[/YT]
**you can start at about 1:05 if you like

I can't find the clip from when Clark gets bullied at the garage, but here is the dialogue between him and his father:

Jonathan Kent: Did they hurt you?

Clark Kent at 13: You know they can't.

Jonathan Kent: That's not what I meant. I meant, "are you all right?"

Clark Kent at 13: I wanted to hit that kid. I wanted to hit him so bad.

Jonathan Kent: I know you did. I mean, part of me even wanted you to, but then what? Make you feel any better? You just have to decide what kind of a man you want to grow up to be, Clark; because whoever that man is, good character or bad, he's... He's gonna change the world.

Sounds like a father who believes in his son, but just wants to make sure he is ready to make his own decisions, realizing just how unique he is and how young and vulnerable he would be if people knew about him before Clark made his choices.

 

[Black Narcissus]

!
But, but they did it in the comics... the complain comes down to not my superman and all that stuff again, which is fine. I still find it hilarious when some fans act like some of these characteristics or things he does are foreign to the character and all that. lol

 

[HellYeah]

Agreed. But I bet he was even better in the Snyder cut. The scenes with his civilian avatar visiting a nazi camp and controlling nukes, the intensity of his acting when he was ripping the motherboxes apart, the fact that he was probably the character who caught a glimpse of darkseid and the knightmare future, his double arm canons and full face armor, his would-be "darker" backstory and relationship with his dad, that scene in trailer 1 where he's crying for some reason... Imagine how great Ray/Cyborg is in the Snyder cut.

Agreed

 

[Reel-Man]

!
But, but they did it in the comics... the complain comes down to not my superman and all that stuff again, which is fine. I still find it hilarious when some fans act like some of these characteristics or things he does are foreign to the character and all that. lol

Probably haven't even picked up a comic book and the only version they barely know is the Christopher Reeve movies. Jesus imagine some people will have grown up with Superman Returns as their introduction!

 

[random_havoc]

Probably haven't even picked up a comic book and the only version they barely know is the Christopher Reeve movies. Jesus imagine some people will have grown up with Superman Returns as their introduction!

I would compare how many comics I've read to how many you have any day. Guarantee I've read more. Spare me your attempts at nerd-shaming via your imagining things about me and then assuming they're true. People like you are why the Simpsons has Comic Book Guy

 

[random_havoc]

!
But, but they did it in the comics... the complain comes down to not my superman and all that stuff again, which is fine. I still find it hilarious when some fans act like some of these characteristics or things he does are foreign to the character and all that. lol

That's interesting, I've never seen that panel (looks to be one of the issues from back in the 30s from what I can see of the art).
Nonetheless, pa telling him to hide his powers versus MoS pa telling him maybe he should have let a busload of kids die is still miles apart.

I think my disgust about it was also heightened by Ma, in BvS, literally giving an antithesis line to what Uncle Ben says. Her whole speech from the trailer ""Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be... or be none of it. You don't owe this world a thing. You never did"
And that's after he's already Superman. It's literally the opposite of what Uncle Ben says, which makes her a piece of crap. "Sure you could save tons of people, but f*** 'em."

 

[Black Narcissus]

Eh, that's alright. Never bothered me.

You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

 

[Reel-Man]

I would compare how many comics I've read to how many you have any day. Guarantee I've read more. Spare me your attempts at nerd-shaming via your imagining things about me and then assuming they're true. People like you are why the Simpsons has Comic Book Guy

Someone's clearly got issues. This wasn't addressed at you or I would have quoted you. I have no interest in arguing on a forum, specially with someone who has no idea what an opinion is. Go get triggered by someone else and spare me of your childish tantrums. Best move on now.

 

[Micromind]

That's interesting, I've never seen that panel (looks to be one of the issues from back in the 30s from what I can see of the art).
Nonetheless, pa telling him to hide his powers versus MoS pa telling him maybe he should have let a busload of kids die is still miles apart.

I think my disgust about it was also heightened by Ma, in BvS, literally giving an antithesis line to what Uncle Ben says. Her whole speech from the trailer ""Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be... or be none of it. You don't owe this world a thing. You never did"
And that's after he's already Superman. It's literally the opposite of what Uncle Ben says, which makes her a piece of crap. "Sure you could save tons of people, but f*** 'em."

That's taking it too literally, I think what Pa Kent wanted to say is, there will be some instances where even Superman may not be able to save people, even if he wants to, just for reference take the story narrated by Pa Kent's ghost in BvS, where a young Jonathan Kent diverted the flow of water only to find out that they ended up flooding neighbor's farm and the horses there drowned.

Basically, Pa Kent is telling young Clark that the world is not Black and White but has moral grey areas in between.

Also, you are unnecessarily getting triggered, even if you have different opinion, others too can have different opinions, agree to disagree, let it go.

Edit: I don't think Reel-Man was about you in particular, I think he was just making a general point. (post #938)

 

[misslane38]

That's interesting, I've never seen that panel (looks to be one of the issues from back in the 30s from what I can see of the art).
Nonetheless, pa telling him to hide his powers versus MoS pa telling him maybe he should have let a busload of kids die is still miles apart.

It's really not that different. It's not different at all, really. It's not even unique in Superman's canon.

And that's after he's already Superman. It's literally the opposite of what Uncle Ben says, which makes her a piece of crap. "Sure you could save tons of people, but f*** 'em."

Clark doesn't owe the world anything. If he did, then every act of his saving people wouldn't be an act of love, generosity, and sacrifice. If I give a man a dollar because I owe him a dollar, then that is what I owe. It's an obligation. If I give a man a dollar without owing him a dollar, then that's an act of generosity and sacrifice. It's an act of freely given compassion. Superman should be Superman because his powers and his upbringing have, as Lois put it, made not saving people not an option for Clark. He saves people because he cannot help himself from saving people. It's an act that comes from who he is rather than a debt he feels he owes. Martha is telling Clark that he doesn't have to be what the world is asking him to be because the world cannot make up its mind. She's telling Clark to do what comes from who he is and what he feels is best for himself. That is what makes his decision to face Finch's committee so powerful.

 

[Micromind]

Clark doesn't owe the world anything. If he did, then every act of his saving people wouldn't be an act of love, generosity, and sacrifice. If I give a man a dollar because I owe him a dollar, then that is what I owe. It's an obligation. If I give a man a dollar without owing him a dollar, then that's an act of generosity and sacrifice. It's an act of freely given compassion. Superman should be Superman because his powers and his upbringing have, as Lois put it, made not saving people not an option for Clark. He saves people because he cannot help himself from saving people. It's an act that comes from who he is rather than a debt he feels he owes. Martha is telling Clark that he doesn't have to be what the world is asking him to be because the world cannot make up its mind. She's telling Clark to do what comes from who he is and what he feels is best for himself. That is what makes his decision to face Finch's committee so powerful.

Well said and I agree completely.

 

[Consona]

at no point was I trying to bait anyone into debating BVS with me

I know, it was a note to me, not to you. t:

 

[Consona]

In light of the whole Snyder being forced off the project news (or "fired" if you want to be a *****e) you really gotta hand it to Ray for that act of protest wearing the "I love Zack Snyder" shirt. The dude is a the definition of an unknown and a new-comer. His first actual movie role was his 5 second cameo in BVS. For him to be so defiant towards the studio he works for when he doesn't have a career to fall back on, just to perform an act of solidarity and recognition towards Zack is pretty moving. The studio could have seen his passive aggressive display and chosen to recast him. He did it anyway. He really is a good guy.

Yea, Ray is a great person, I love watching interviews with him, he's humble, intelligent, empathetic. Definitely cannot wait to see him again, in our outside of DCEU.

Clark doesn't owe the world anything. If he did, then every act of his saving people wouldn't be an act of love, generosity, and sacrifice. If I give a man a dollar because I owe him a dollar, then that is what I owe. It's an obligation. If I give a man a dollar without owing him a dollar, then that's an act of generosity and sacrifice. It's an act of freely given compassion. Superman should be Superman because his powers and his upbringing have, as Lois put it, made not saving people not an option for Clark. He saves people because he cannot help himself from saving people. It's an act that comes from who he is rather than a debt he feels he owes. Martha is telling Clark that he doesn't have to be what the world is asking him to be because the world cannot make up its mind. She's telling Clark to do what comes from who he is and what he feels is best for himself. That is what makes his decision to face Finch's committee so powerful.

Exactly. The important thing is his own decision that is not burdened by any debt. MoS/BvS is the best origin story for any CB hero I've seen. You see Superman being bullied, being a target of public hatred, being perplexed about his place here, witnessing how people can be mean to each other, yet he always tried to help when he could. It's this great emotions vs reason struggle, that every person who's not a pure psychopath experiences. In the end, he has to understand that "I remember one season the water came bad. I couldn't've been twelve. Dad had out the shovels and we went at it all night. We worked 'til I think I fainted, but we managed to stop the water. We saved the farm. Your grandma baked me a cake, said I was a hero. Later that day we found out we blocked the water alright - we sent it upstream. A whole Lange farm washed away. While I ate my hero cake, their horses were drowning."
I mean, imagine being Superman, with an unstoppable urge to help others, you can be anywhere, doing anything, yet you know, when you help someone, some other people somewhere will die because of your decision to help the one you've helped. It's absolutely insane. And people will hate for that, why did he not helped our son yet helped that one? That's why this line, "Be their hero, Clark. Be their monument, be their angel, be anything they need you to be... or be none of it. You don't owe this world a thing. You never did" is so important. He does not need to do any of that, yet he takes that poisonous kryptonite spear that makes him vulnerable and flies to face off DD who he knows (after the heat vision battle) is stronger than him, just to save this planet. Man, MoS and BvS are so fantastic. Shame we'll most probably never see any DC movie from Snyder.

 

[misslane38]

I also think it's important to note that Uncle Ben's classic line has more to do with how one uses power than if one should use it. He wants Peter to use his powers for good not for evil. The Kents want their powerful son to make good choices based on his character. That is what Ben wants for Peter, too. Power should be used responsibly, but it doesn't imply one owes a debt to society.

ETA:

The two-fold mission of the Carnegie Hero Fund Commission: To recognize persons who perform acts of heroism in civilian life in the United States and Canada, and to provide financial assistance for those disabled and the dependents of those killed helping others.

“We live in a heroic age,” Andrew Carnegie wrote in the opening lines of the Commission’s founding Deed of Trust in 1904. “Not seldom are we thrilled by deeds of heroism where men or women are injured or lose their lives in attempting to preserve or rescue their fellows.”

Carnegie’s “hero fund,” administered by a 21-member commission in Pittsburgh, was charged with honoring whom he called the “heroes of civilization,” whose lifesaving actions put them in stark contrast to the “heroes of barbarism, (who) maimed or killed” their fellow man. That the mission of the Hero Fund as set forth by Carnegie is unchanged over more than a century, despite massive upheaval in the social and world order, is testament both to his foresight and to essentially unchanging human nature.

The Commission’s working definition of a hero as well as its requirements for awarding remain largely those that were approved by the founder. The candidate for an award must be a civilian who voluntarily risks his or her life to an extraordinary degree while saving or attempting to save the life of another person. The rescuer must have no full measure of responsibility for the safety of the victim.

www.carnegiehero.org/about-the-fund/mission/

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Clark doesn't owe the world anything. If he did, then every act of his saving people wouldn't be an act of love, generosity, and sacrifice. If I give a man a dollar because I owe him a dollar, then that is what I owe. It's an obligation. If I give a man a dollar without owing him a dollar, then that's an act of generosity and sacrifice. It's an act of freely given compassion. Superman should be Superman because his powers and his upbringing have, as Lois put it, made not saving people not an option for Clark. He saves people because he cannot help himself from saving people. It's an act that comes from who he is rather than a debt he feels he owes. Martha is telling Clark that he doesn't have to be what the world is asking him to be because the world cannot make up its mind. She's telling Clark to do what comes from who he is and what he feels is best for himself. That is what makes his decision to face Finch's committee so powerful.

Great post, and not only that, but it was a mother comforting her son in time of need. Clark is the most important person in the world to Martha, and Clark is literally feeling the weight of the world on his shoulders at that point, she was just trying to tell him he doesn’t have to let it weigh on him so much. Which ties in with the story the ghost of Jonathan tells later in the movie about finding a way to deal with guilt of the ones he couldn’t save.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Oh gawd not again. Will someone please fake some Snyder news to distract the merrygoround debate.