DC Animation ‘Batman: Caped Crusader’: Animated Series From Bruce Timm, J.J. Abrams, Matt Reeves Greenlit

[SwordOfMorning]

You know... I've always been curious about the whole Harley Quinn creator debate. Every time I have seen Timm talk about the character, he always mentions Dini's idea to give Joker a ''hench girl''. Both Dini and Timm's stories sync up and they always seem to get 50% credit. What's the issue?

One thing that does irk me at the moment is everyone saying this show would be way better with Paul Dini writing it. Oh really?... because fans just spent the last three years bemoaning how Dini had lost his magic with the Batman: The Adventures Continue comic series. That his writing (with Alan Burnett) feels forced and never fully capturing the flavor of B:TAS.

Dini is very good but incredibly overrated and also gets way too much undue credit for the DCAU.

 

[sukinta]

‘Batman: Caped Crusader’: Animated Series From Bruce Timm, J.J. Abrams, Matt Reeves Greenlit At HBO Max & Cartoon Network – Deadline

Batman: Caped Crusader, an animated series from executive producers Bruce Timm, J.J Abrams, and Matt Reeves, received a straight to series order from HBO Max and Cartoon Network.

The reimagining of the Batman mythology is produced by Warner Bros. Animation, Bad Robot Productions and 6th & Idaho and marks Batman: The Animated series producer Timm’s return to Batman in animated episodic series. The Animated SEries. Tom Ascheim, President, Warner Bros. Global Kids, Young Adults and Classics (GKYAC) and Sam Register, President, Warner Bros. Animation (WBA) and Cartoon Network Studios (CNS), unveiled the series on Wednesday.

“It is always fun to feed the insatiable appetite fans have for all things Batman. Batman: Caped Crusader will entertain first time and die-hard fans alike and, with such an impressive creative team in place, we know we have another future Batman classic in the making,” Ascheim said.

Register added: “Batman: The Animated Series was a masterpiece that shaped the perception of the character for an entire generation of fans. It is in that spirit that we are bringing together three master storytellers in J.J., Matt and Bruce – each with their own intuitive understanding and affection for the character – to create a new series that will continue in the same groundbreaking legacy.”

Executive Producers Bruce Timm, J.J. Abrams and Matt Reeves said: “We are beyond excited to be working together to bring this character back, to tell engrossing new stories in Gotham City. The series will be thrilling, cinematic and evocative of Batman’s noir roots, while diving deeper into the psychology of these iconic characters. We cannot wait to share this new world.”

Already watched the first few episodes. No spoilers but very different than the animated series.

 

[chintai80]

finished watching all the episodes over the weekend.

loved it.

my only nitpick is some of the animation wasn't up to par at times - they probably tried to cut corners / budget by using some digital animation, and you can tell.

but i really loved the story and the characterizations.
it felt both familiar and fresh at the same time.

this is basically a show made for fans of BTAS who grew up watching that show, and are now adults.

i hope we get dr. hugo strange and the mad monk for S2.

and maybe the scarecrow too, since harley name dropped dr. crane in here.
and yea, we are definitely getting a scary-ass version of the joker in this.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Granted, Dini is not the end all/be all, but this show could've stood to use some of his humanity in the scripts.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Dini is very good but incredibly overrated and also gets way too much undue credit for the DCAU.

Too much undue credit for DCAU is fair but

Overrated?


That I'm supremely curious to hear some elaboration on

 

[Primal Slayer]

I'm a damn broken record at this point but just look how much more dynamic that kind of animation was... Argh!

animation nowadays....the styles are all about saving coin and it shows and WB been saving that $$$ since YJ originally returned for s3

 

[Frodo]

I'd love to see the next live action Barbara Gordon / Batgirl, be an A.D.A. or A public defender as in Caped Crusader.

It was an interesting spin on the character , and adds even more to her view of the legal seems strengths and weaknesses .

It also puts her in an interesting counter balance relative to Jim and Bruce , if she ever becomes a crime fighter in this version.
Her perspective would definitely be different than Batman's.

 

[DKDetective]

You know... I've always been curious about the whole Harley Quinn creator debate. Every time I have seen Timm talk about the character, he always mentions Dini's idea to give Joker a ''hench girl''. Both Dini and Timm's stories sync up and they always seem to get 50% credit. What's the issue?

One thing that does irk me at the moment is everyone saying this show would be way better with Paul Dini writing it. Oh really?... because fans just spent the last three years bemoaning how Dini had lost his magic with the Batman: The Adventures Continue comic series. That his writing (with Alan Burnett) feels forced and never fully capturing the flavor of B:TAS.

The stories sync up now, but there was a report in THR a few years about certain anonymous co-creators, which most believe are Timm and Dini, that back in the day for legal copyright and royalty purposes, one (Timm) submitted himself as sole creator. So yeah, in fan circles and history, they are well-known now to be co-creators, but allegedly Timm scooped the monetary reward for himself.

But the second part of your post I completely agree with. Dini was one of the best writers on BTAS, but there were several other phenomenal writers on the show and Dini's skills have definitely weakened over time. The writing for Arkham Asylum and Arkham City was rough and uneven at best.

Also, the head writer on this show is one of the greatest Batman comics writers of all time and did an excellent job here. I don't think it's fair to compare the amount of humanity in this Bruce versus BTAS Bruce as they are totally different points in their journeys and careers.

Like The Batman Bruce, this one is emotionally closed off out of pain and fear and is learning to open up and let people in. This is the complete opposite of the increasingly *******-ish Bruce we saw in the DCAU. I think this is a superior take over the post-BTAS DCAU Bruce.

 

[DKDetective]

Granted, Dini is not the end all/be all, but this show could've stood to use some of his humanity in the scripts.

I completely disagree, there was plenty of humanity here, this Bruce is just at a different point in his journey and a lot of the stories, especially later in the season, involve an emotionally closed off man beginning to open up and let others in.

It is on the whole far more humanity than the DCAU Batman got after BTAS or that Dini gave Batman in the Arkham Games. Both of those showed an increasingly *******-ish closed off Bruce. And could be pretty mean spirited and cynical.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

I completely disagree, there was plenty of humanity here, this Bruce is just at a different point in his journey and a lot of the stories, especially later in the season, involve an emotionally closed off man beginning to open up and let others in.

It is on the whole far more humanity than the DCAU Batman got after BTAS or that Dini gave Batman in the Arkham Games. Both of those showed an increasingly *******-ish closed off Bruce. And could be pretty mean spirited and cynical.

But see that's where there's a disconnect for me with this show. Yes there was plenty of humanity, but more so shown through Babs and Montoya. I feel like certain aspects of their personality should've been given to both Bruce and Commissioner Gordon, because they lacked what the ladies possessed.

Just the way Bruce operated in this, it left a bad taste in my mouth. For example:

Spoiler

The episode with him taking Harvey out to dinner after he got hit with the acid just felt emotionally manipulative; the way he shifts from putting on his playboy persona to being 'Batman' in the car scenes with 'Pennyworth' just felt off. The only time he showed any warmth was that Firefly episode where he and Gordon saved those children.

I get that it is early in his career, but I thought it could've been handled better. As far as the bolded, that is very true about Dini, but he did deliver compassion in Arkham Knight when Bruce pieced together that he was dealing with Jason. But maybe after I rewatch CC again, I'll feel different.

 

[DKDetective]

But see that's where there's a disconnect for me with this show. Yes there was plenty of humanity, but more so shown through Babs and Montoya. I feel like certain aspects of their personality should've been given to both Bruce and Commissioner Gordon, because they lacked what the ladies possessed.

Just the way Bruce operated in this, it left a bad taste in my mouth. For example:

Spoiler

The episode with him taking Harvey out to dinner after he got hit with the acid just felt emotionally manipulative; the way he shifts from putting on his playboy persona to being 'Batman' in the car scenes with 'Pennyworth' just felt off. The only time he showed any warmth was that Firefly episode where he and Gordon saved those children.

I get that it is early in his career, but I thought it could've been handled better. As far as the bolded, that is very true about Dini, but he did deliver compassion in Arkham Knight when Bruce pieced together that he was dealing with Jason. But maybe after I rewatch CC again, I'll feel different.

Dini wasn't involved with the writing of Arkham Knight.

I disagree about Bruce only showing warmth in the Firebug episode (Firebug is a different villain from Firefly):

Spoiler

We saw Bruce's humanity peak through in Kiss of the Catwoman when he got provoked by those reporters insulting his parents' memory.

He showed depth of feeling towards Alfred in the Gentleman Jim episode. Almost losing Alfred cracks this cold exterior.

He showed it again towards Natalie in the carnival episode as well as towards Leslie and her orphans.

And finally it was all over the place in the finale culminating in him starting to call Alfred by his first name.

Bruce in The Batman was also manipulative as well. At first, he viewed Selina only as tool to be used before he finally warmed to her.

As a guy for whom Batman is number one, I am a huge fan of how both The Batman and Caped Crusader approach Bruce's characterization. A much as I love the classical O'Neil/BTAS characterization, the way Bruce goes from angry youth start to dark, but enlightened avenger as soon as he becomes Batman is a little superhuman.

These new interpretations better reflect actual psychological reality in terms of a younger Batman still having a lot of issues to work through and being emotional closed off as a result. I find that a much more heroic and sympathetic characterization than the DCAU where a young, well-balanced Bruce regresses as he gets older and becomes more of a curmudgeon. The idea of Bruce of working to become a better person everyday is far more heroic to me and actually better reflects the traditional depiction of Bruce as a humanist who hopes for rehabilitation and second chances.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

Dini wasn't involved with the writing of Arkham Knight.

I disagree about Bruce only showing warmth in the Firebug episode (Firebug is a different villain from Firefly):

Spoiler

We saw Bruce's humanity peak through in Kiss of the Catwoman when he got provoked by those reporters insulting his parents' memory.

He showed depth of feeling towards Alfred in the Gentleman Jim episode. Almost losing Alfred cracks this cold exterior.

He showed it again towards Natalie in the carnival episode as well as towards Leslie and her orphans.

And finally it was all over the place in the finale culminating in him starting to call Alfred by his first name.

Bruce in The Batman was also manipulative as well. At first, he viewed Selina only as tool to be used before he finally warmed to her.

As a guy for whom Batman is number one, I am a huge fan of how both The Batman and Caped Crusader approach Bruce's characterization. A much as I love the classical O'Neil/BTAS characterization, the way Bruce goes from angry youth start to dark, but enlightened avenger as soon as he becomes Batman is a little superhuman.

These new interpretations better reflect actual psychological reality in terms of a younger Batman still having a lot of issues to work through and being emotional closed off as a result. I find that a much more heroic and sympathetic characterization than the DCAU where a young, well-balanced Bruce regresses as he gets older and becomes more of a curmudgeon. The idea of Bruce of working to become a better person everyday is far more heroic to me and actually better reflects the traditional depiction of Bruce as a humanist who hopes for rehabilitation and second chances.

It's been a long day for yours truly, forgive me about the Dini/Firebug slip ups.

Can't fight you about The Batman point, because I loved how after all of that murder and trauma in the film, it ends with Batman literally lighting his way out of the darkness of night with that flare, all the while helping his fellow Gothamites in daylight. I thought that was lovely.

Again, I have to rewatch CC with fresh eyes because:

Spoiler

Even with that breakthrough with him finally addressing Alfred by his first name, it just felt off to me. A big chunk of what I felt went wrong in this is the Bruce/Alfred lack of relationship.

But I definitely feel you about Bruce actively becoming a better person and how it shapes his view.

 

[DKDetective]

It's been a long day for yours truly, forgive me about the Dini/Firebug slip ups.

Can't fight you about The Batman point, because I loved how after all of that murder and trauma in the film, it ends with Batman literally lighting his way out of the darkness of night with that flare, all the while helping his fellow Gothamites in daylight. I thought that was lovely.

Again, I have to rewatch CC with fresh eyes because:

Spoiler

Even with that breakthrough with him finally addressing Alfred by his first name, it just felt off to me. A big chunk of what I felt went wrong in this is the Bruce/Alfred lack of relationship.

But I definitely feel you about Bruce actively becoming a better person and how it shapes his view.

No worries about the Dini/Firebug slipups. I know you mentioned in the Civil War thread about being more of a Marvel guy and needing to switch teams after this Comic-Con, so I just trying to be educational for a new recruit for our side.

 

[Omegabat]

I would say with Dini you have a writer who has expanded his knowledge of the mythos. So while his recent output maybe uneven he's stll written Zsasz, Hush and Damian Wayne and grew to be a fan of Bane despite initial reservations. Timm on the otherhand comes across as the guy stuck in the past. Talented yes and a great animator with tons of vision but I just don't see him evolving as a Batman creator. He's pretty dead set in his ideas. Even Caped Crusader he referred to as what he actually wanted BTAS to be all along.

Though Brubaker being one of the greatest Batman writers is a new one for me. Daredevil and Cap America I can understand but his Batman work was incredibly subpar unless Catwoman and Gotham Central count as Batman stories. There's a reason Hush and Under the Red Hood are the most memorable arcs from that era(neither written by Brubaker).

 

[Pennywise]

Standout episodes for me were 2- 4, 5, 8 and 9-10. I really enjoyed all of the episodes, though.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Just finished it last night. Watched 2 episodes daily.

Surprised at how much I enjoyed it. It really evoked the same feeling in me watching TAS as a boy, but still being it's own distinct show, that stands on it's own.

Pumped for Season 2.

 

[DeadlyWest]

I would say with Dini you have a writer who has expanded his knowledge of the mythos. So while his recent output maybe uneven he's stll written Zsasz, Hush and Damian Wayne and grew to be a fan of Bane despite initial reservations. Timm on the otherhand comes across as the guy stuck in the past. Talented yes and a great animator with tons of vision but I just don't see him evolving as a Batman creator. He's pretty dead set in his ideas. Even Caped Crusader he referred to as what he actually wanted BTAS to be all along.

Though Brubaker being one of the greatest Batman writers is a new one for me. Daredevil and Cap America I can understand but his Batman work was incredibly subpar unless Catwoman and Gotham Central count as Batman stories. There's a reason Hush and Under the Red Hood are the most memorable arcs from that era(neither written by Brubaker).

...

I am genuinely begging to hear which Brubaker stories are subpar because as far as I'm concerned Fugitive is one of the (if not flat out just the) greatest Batman comic arcs ever written.

Hush and Under the Red Hood meanwhile are a step backward if anything. Hush's entire characterisation of Batman goes against everything Brubaker evolved him into literally a single comic arc earlier (ironically for all the Dini discourse here I'd honestly contend Heart of Hush is leaps and bounds above Hush). Under the Red Hood basically got redone to be made better via the animated movie. The comic itself is...really not that good, honestly. The movie's a masterpiece but I'd find it hard to give Under the Hood anything more than a 6/10.

 

[Omegabat]

...

I am genuinely begging to hear which Brubaker stories are subpar because as far as I'm concerned Fugitive is one of the (if not flat out just the) greatest Batman comic arcs ever written.

Hush and Under the Red Hood meanwhile are a step backward if anything. Hush's entire characterisation of Batman goes against everything Brubaker evolved him into literally a single comic arc earlier (ironically for all the Dini discourse here I'd honestly contend Heart of Hush is leaps and bounds above Hush). Under the Red Hood basically got redone to be made better via the animated movie. The comic itself is...really not that good, honestly. The movie's a masterpiece but I'd find it hard to give Under the Hood anything more than a 6/10.

Admittedly I'm not all that in to Hush (story and character) but it was a bombastic story about Batman, his classic villains and supporting characters. The Brubaker/Rucka era was a slog in comparison with forgettable OC villains that went nowhere, an utterly unlikable Batman, bizarre changes to supporting cast and a whole lot of cop drama. At the end of the day who even remembers Zeiss or Sasha or Vesper or Alfred staying at Tim Drake's college.
Fugitive was a poorly conceived story with even worse coordination. Chuck Dixon talked about how the editors had no idea who they even wanted the main villain to be until the very end and how "one writer" kept all the major beats to himself( Rucka I assume). It was a stark contrast to Knightfall and NML which Denny planned with the writers.

 

[DKDetective]

...

I am genuinely begging to hear which Brubaker stories are subpar because as far as I'm concerned Fugitive is one of the (if not flat out just the) greatest Batman comic arcs ever written.

Hush and Under the Red Hood meanwhile are a step backward if anything. Hush's entire characterisation of Batman goes against everything Brubaker evolved him into literally a single comic arc earlier (ironically for all the Dini discourse here I'd honestly contend Heart of Hush is leaps and bounds above Hush). Under the Red Hood basically got redone to be made better via the animated movie. The comic itself is...really not that good, honestly. The movie's a masterpiece but I'd find it hard to give Under the Hood anything more than a 6/10.

Hush is so bad and Under the Red Hood is massively overrated. I also can't understand how anyone can think Rucka and Brubaker wrote an unlikeable Bruce. They led Murderer/Fugitive, which worked to undue the excesses of 90s dark, jerk Batman. They also wrote Officer Down which is basically a great tribute to Denny O'Neil and Brubaker's The Man Who Laughs is considered an excellent Batman/Joker story.

And I would definitely consider Gotham Central, Catwoman, and the creation of Batwoman as evidence of their greatness as Batman writers. Adding to Gotham mythology in such a strong way demonstrates a great understand of Batman, Gotham, and all of its other notable citizens.

 

[Pennywise]

Hush is so bad and Under the Red Hood is massively overrated. I also can't understand how anyone can think Rucka and Brubaker wrote an unlikeable Bruce. They led Murderer/Fugitive, which worked to undue the excesses of 90s dark, jerk Batman. They also wrote Officer Down which is basically a great tribute to Denny O'Neil and Brubaker's The Man Who Laughs is considered an excellent Batman/Joker story.

And I would definitely consider Gotham Central, Catwoman, and the creation of Batwoman as evidence of their greatness as Batman writers. Adding to Gotham mythology in such a strong way demonstrates a great understand of Batman, Gotham, and all of its other notable citizens.

Love Man Who Laughs, was a great update of 1940’s Batman #1, which I still love! Also think Soft Targets by Rucka/Brubaker is another underrated Joker story.

Spoiler

Would not be surprised to get if Joker is based on the Golden Age incarnation, but would have been awesome to have Brubaker writing some of his confrontations with Batman in S2. Still, want to be cautiously optimistic S2 will still be good.

 

[DeadlyWest]

Ultimately, Brubaker/Rucka gave us this.


There's a damn good reason I've always advocated for an adaptation of this story to conclude The Batman trilogy.

It's just genuinely perfect. I'm not one to try and discredit someone's difference in personal preference, but I find it hard to see Hush or Under the Red Hood as anything less than an objective downgrade to this

 

[flickchick85]

Jeph Loeb is a terrible writer. The only reason any of his stories are famous is because of the artists that worked on them. The writing sucks in them all. Hush doesn’t even belong in the same conversation as Murderer/Fugitive imo.

 

[chintai80]

i only liked hush for the jim lee art.

 

[Omegabat]

We're all entitled to our preferences at the end of the day. I certainly would not put Loeb over Brubaker and Rucka as a writer overall and Judd Winick doesn't belong in the conversation involving Brubaker and Rucka. They're certainly not my favorite Bat writers( Grant Morrison ) but it is a fact that The Long Halloween/Dark Victory/ Hush and Under The Red Hood are the most memorable Batman arcs and major status quo changers/establishers. Nothing Rucka and Brubaker did comes remotely close. Creating Batwoman and writing cop stories doesn't establish them as major Batman writers. By that logic Tom Taylor should be in the list of Batman GOATS for his Nightwing run. Even now DC is publishing a what if version of Death in the Family and they have plans for a sequel to Dark Victory next month. The Nolan and Reeves films have a lot of Loeb influence. Hush/TLH/UTRH have been adapted to animation and UTRH was adapted to gaming. I believe Matt Reeves was Loeb's student too. Doubt Rucka/Brubakers runs will be revisited or expanded upon ever because frankly there's nothing to them unless you're a big fan of nothing burger characters like Zeiss, Kyle Abbot and Sasha Bordeaux.

 

[DeadlyWest]

We're all entitled to our preferences at the end of the day. I certainly would not put Loeb over Brubaker and Rucka as a writer overall and Judd Winick doesn't belong in the conversation involving Brubaker and Rucka. They're certainly not my favorite Bat writers( Grant Morrison ) but it is a fact that The Long Halloween/Dark Victory/ Hush and Under The Red Hood are the most memorable Batman arcs and major status quo changers/establishers. Nothing Rucka and Brubaker did comes remotely close. Creating Batwoman and writing cop stories doesn't establish them as major Batman writers. By that logic Tom Taylor should be in the list of Batman GOATS for his Nightwing run. Even now DC is publishing a what if version of Death in the Family and they have plans for a sequel to Dark Victory next month. The Nolan and Reeves films have a lot of Loeb influence. Hush/TLH/UTRH have been adapted to animation and UTRH was adapted to gaming. I believe Matt Reeves was Loeb's student too. Doubt Rucka/Brubakers runs will be revisited or expanded upon ever because frankly there's nothing to them unless you're a big fan of nothing burger characters like Zeiss, Kyle Abbot and Sasha Bordeaux.

I don't know if Reeves is familiar with Fugitive, so there's two possibilities imo. Because there is absolutely...similar themes in both The Batman and the work of Rucka/Brubaker.

Either Reeves has read their work and it is an active decision, or Reeves hasn't read their work and it's complete coincidence that he touches upon extremely similar stuff. Said extremely similar stuff being the very reason The Batman is my favourite Batman movie of all time.

Both Matt and the pairing of Rucka/Brubaker focus hard on the humanity of Bruce Wayne and how that's what really makes him a hero, despite the internal demons that Bruce battles with on a daily basis


"His compassion for Gotham, for the victims and survivors, is limitless; his compassion for his allies, his companions, almost nonexistent. We wanted to change that."



(thank you @Kane52630 you always do God's work)
Like

come on, man.

It can't be just me seeing the parallels here, intended or not.