Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 13 Big Questions For The Future of ‘Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.’

[metaphysician]

Jesus, such an "american alibi"
people are people. Good or evil, guilty or innocent. And killing is killing.

If your system of morality doesn't distinguish between killing a helpless kid vs killing somebody about to shoot a helpless kid, than it is vile.

 

[Demileto]

If your system of morality doesn't distinguish between killing a helpless kid vs killing somebody about to shoot a helpless kid, than it is vile.

Pretty sure his point is that all life is valuable and should not be treated as discardable. Killing should never be an option you instantly think of to solve a complicated situation and arise only when all the other ones failed to accomplish it.

We digress, though. I wouldn't call any of the people Ward killed or attempted to kill "innocent". They were all SHIELD agents and knew the risks.

 

[metaphysician]

Betrayal is still betrayal. That, plus "the victim is an enemy combatant" only provides moral justification if your conflict is, itself, justifiable. A policeman "knows the risks" when he takes the job; does this make it morally justified for a drug dealer to shoot said policeman?

 

[Alex_Kidd]

If your system of morality doesn't distinguish between killing a helpless kid vs killing somebody about to shoot a helpless kid, than it is vile.

Because in your position, obviously the God's once, you can decide who can die and who can't. My System of morality say that who kill a kid have to be banished by my community in an appropriate structure, not into a hole. otherwise I shouldn't be so different from him.

But we are losing time, Lat's talk about the show.

 

[Demileto]

Betrayal is still betrayal.

Not always in television, cinema, literature and other kinds of creative works:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WelcomeBackTraitor

That, plus "the victim is an enemy combatant" only provides moral justification if your conflict is, itself, justifiable.

Justifiability of a conflict, if that even exists, is always relative, never an absolute. What I see as an unforgivable action may have a justification in the eyes of another.

A policeman "knows the risks" when he takes the job; does this make it morally justified for a drug dealer to shoot said policeman?

Again, relative - preserving his freedom and his business is a good enough justification for someone who deals drugs to shoot a policeman. I don't see it as a moral one either, but then again Morality is also relative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality.

The bottom line is, Ward's not an unabashed evil guy. He did what he did because he believed Garrett to have saved him from hell and felt his debt of gratitute trumpled any reservations he may have of Garrett's intentions or any other loyalties he may forge in his life, not because he wanted to do evil for evil's sake. He didn't want to kill Fitz and Simmons, but Garrett asked him to do it and he couldn't say no after everything Garrett did for him. A characterization this nuanced serves no purpose if the show doesn't present forgiveness for his sins as a reachable goal for him later down the line.

 

[Jasyn]

Not always in television, cinema, literature and other kinds of creative works:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WelcomeBackTraitor



Justifiability of a conflict, if that even exists, is always relative, never an absolute. What I see as an unforgivable action may have a justification in the eyes of another.



Again, relative - preserving his freedom and his business is a good enough justification for someone who deals drugs to shoot a policeman. I don't see it as a moral one either, but then again Morality is also relative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality.

The bottom line is, Ward's not an unabashed evil guy. He did what he did because he believed Garrett to have saved him from hell and felt his debt of gratitute trumpled any reservations he may have of Garrett's intentions or any other loyalties he may forge in his life, not because he wanted to do evil for evil's sake. He didn't want to kill Fitz and Simmons, but Garrett asked him to do it and he couldn't say no after everything Garrett did for him. A characterization this nuanced serves no purpose if the show doesn't present forgiveness for his sins as a reachable goal for him later down the line.

I personally think its O.K. to cheer on a bad guy in a work of fiction or entertainment. But I feel that folks are grasping at non-existent straws wanting Ward to be saved/redeemed. A point I tried to make many posts back in this thread is that I want Ward to be a villain. Ward might not be what you consider "evil" at the end of season 1, but I hope that's what he becomes. I actually think he's already there. Don't save him and let his love for Skye "shine through" and squirt rainbows from his butt. Let him be a "super-villain". I differ with you on that I think Ward would have without hesitation shot Fitz and Simmons right in the face and dropped their lifeless bodies at Garrett's feet, had they not locked themselves in that compartment. The only thing that AOS has demonstrated to me is that Ward is:

> ruthless and cold blooded (traits Garrett admired)
> has killed "good" (SHIELD) people
> an excellent liar due to his training
> has attempted to kill all the people on his team
> has worked with people he knows have evil intentions



Maybe season 2 might be different (doubt it), but season 1 did a lousy job of demonstrating why Ward is loyal to Garrett. I see Ward's character very differently than you do and here is another part of the reason why:

> escape from the jail
> arson of his family's home (let's just pass over the what we think is the "why" of the arson for a moment)
> looting of vacation cabins
> willingly recruited to work for a threatening organization (Hydra) hidden inside a government agency (SHIELD)


That is all shown after the Hydra reveal. Way before that, if you go back through the episodes earlier in the season, the writers had Ward push little verbal barbs here and there on the other team members (Fitz, Simmons, Skye, even on May) that were not so obvious attempts at the time to cause doubt in them about Coulson's leadership and Coulson's decisions on various missions in episodes pre-CA:TWS. Maybe it's the former police officer in me from long ago, but Ward does not scream to me future hero or redeemable material.


-

 

[Demileto]

I personally think its O.K. to cheer on a bad guy in a work of fiction or entertainment. But I feel that folks are grasping at non-existent straws wanting Ward to be saved/redeemed. A point I tried to make many posts back in this thread is that I want Ward to be a villain. Ward might not be what you consider "evil" at the end of season 1, but I hope that's what he becomes. I actually think he's already there. Don't save him and let his love for Skye "shine through" and squirt rainbows from his butt. Let him be a "super-villain". I differ with you on that I think Ward would have without hesitation shot Fitz and Simmons right in the face and dropped their lifeless bodies at Garrett's feet, had they not locked themselves in that compartment. The only thing that AOS has demonstrated to me is that Ward is:

> ruthless and cold blooded (traits Garrett admired)
> has killed "good" (SHIELD) people
> an excellent liar due to his training
> has attempted to kill all the people on his team
> has worked with people he knows have evil intentions



Maybe season 2 might be different (doubt it), but season 1 did a lousy job of demonstrating why Ward is loyal to Garrett. I see Ward's character very differently than you do and here is another part of the reason why:

> escape from the jail
> arson of his family's home (let's just pass over the what we think is the "why" of the arson for a moment)
> looting of vacation cabins
> willingly recruited to work for a threatening organization (Hydra) hidden inside a government agency (SHIELD)


That is all shown after the Hydra reveal. Way before that, if you go back through the episodes earlier in the season, the writers had Ward push little verbal barbs here and there on the other team members (Fitz, Simmons, Skye, even on May) that were not so obvious attempts at the time to cause doubt in them about Coulson's leadership and Coulson's decisions on various missions in episodes pre-CA:TWS. Maybe it's the former police officer in me from long ago, but Ward does not scream to me future hero or redeemable material. -

Yup, it's the former police office in you!

I just think you focused a little too much on Ward's actions and not so much on his facial expressions. He was very obviously hurt by Skye's rejection in "Nothing Personal" and hesitated long enough when Garrett asked him to kill Fitz and Simmons that the latter had to resort to the "Is that a weakness" emotional blackmail. Ward has clear self-destructive tendencies and his abusive family life has been hinted thoughout season 1 to be the origin of this problem. They're sure to address that in season 2, so it's probably best to wait a little longer to see if he's really unredemable.

 

[Jasyn]

Yup, it's the former police office in you!

I just think you focused a little too much on Ward's actions and not so much on his facial expressions. He was very obviously hurt by Skye's rejection in "Nothing Personal" and hesitated long enough when Garrett asked him to kill Fitz and Simmons that the latter had to resort to the "Is that a weakness" emotional blackmail. Ward has clear self-destructive tendencies and his abusive family life has been hinted thoughout season 1 to be the origin of this problem. They're sure to address that in season 2, so it's probably best to wait a little longer to see if he's really unredemable.

Ok, so as long as Ward "feels bad" about killing "the good guys", he should get a free pass because he has a crush on a girl and hates his family who may or may not have been abusive towards him.

 

[Demileto]

Ok, so as long as Ward "feels bad" about killing "the good guys", he should get a free pass because he has a crush on a girl and hates his family who may or may not have been abusive towards him.

I guess you wouldn't like Severus Snape from 'Harry Potter' very much.

Unabashed evil villains work best as guest stars, because eventually they have to have the good guys defeat him for good, usually resulting in his death. Brett Dalton, however, is a regular and unless you're planning to remove him from the cast soon you can't turn his character into one because the longer the good guys take to defeat him the sooner they'll begin to be seen as ineffective.

Oh, and by the way, this is a TV show, not real life. In real life, I'd not care a little bit about how screwed up in childhood a bad guy may have been. He killed someone? Jail for him, period. This is not it, however, and I'm allowed to be intrigued by a character that's capable of both helping and harming his loved ones. Characters like that usually lead to more interesting storylines and awesome twists and turns than an unabashed evil villain one like Garrett. Who here didn't think for a moment in "Ragtag" that Ward was not going to try killing Fitz and Simmons after they've superposed that scene with the one of him scaring the dog away instead of shooting it, after all?

 

[Jasyn]

I guess you wouldn't like Severus Snape from 'Harry Potter' very much.

Unabashed evil villains work best as guest stars, because eventually they have to have the good guys defeat him for good, usually resulting in his death. Brett Dalton, however, is a regular and unless you're planning to remove him from the cast soon you can't turn his character into one because the longer the good guys take to defeat him the sooner they'll begin to be seen as ineffective.

Oh, and by the way, this is a TV show, not real life. In real life, I'd not care a little bit about how screwed up in childhood a bad guy may have been. He killed someone? Jail for him, period. This is not it, however, and I'm allowed to be intrigued by a character that's capable of both helping and harming his loved ones. Characters like that usually lead to more interesting storylines and awesome twists and turns than an unabashed evil villain one like Garrett. Who here didn't think for a moment in "Ragtag" that Ward was not going to try killing Fitz and Simmons after they've superposed that scene with the one of him scaring the dog away instead of shooting it, after all?

God, I'm going into AOS withdrawals ... have not enjoyed a TV action show this much since Stargate: SG-1 went off the air.

 

[Shakel92]

Well, Grant is still on the show, so he will be involved somehow. The question I have is; What is he going to do? They can't have him locked in a cell the whole time, can they?

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

Well, Grant is still on the show, so he will be involved somehow. The question I have is; What is he going to do? They can't have him locked in a cell the whole time, can they?

Coulson did say they will torture him........I thinking they could use ward to take down Hydra

 

[Matarreyes]

Ok, so as long as Ward "feels bad" about killing "the good guys", he should get a free pass because he has a crush on a girl and hates his family who may or may not have been abusive towards him.

First of all, nobody wants him to get a free pass. People want him to redeem himself, slowly, painfully and agonically. Second of all, his punishment can and will be more figurative/internal and not involve much jail time, AS IS TYPICAL for all TV shows out there. Wanting a real life punishment on a TV show is completely unrealistic. Third of all, you saying "may or not have been abusive" is sick, canon ignorant and unrespecting to all real life abuse victims out there. We were offered a direct window into Ward's head while he was under an influence of an alien psych "drug" (read: berserker staff). It was clearly stated on screen that it UNLOCKS memories. We saw him being forced to hurt and potentially kill his little brother at about age 10. If you do not consider that abuse and emotional torture, we have nothing to talk about. Try to tell a person whose parents allowed something like that to happen to them that they "may or may have not been abused", and watch them (and social services) punch you in the face. Repeatedly.

What Garrett did to Ward was furthermore a textbook example of brainwashing, complete with the killing of a dog and cutting all his ties to other people for 5 years to the point where he was completely unable to function without orders, as seen in the finale. So, you may not want him to get on his own two feet and learn to be his own person, but plenty of people do. And honestly? I think that they are better human beings for it.

 

[Matarreyes]

OK. There is such a load of double standards at work here, I just can't.

> ruthless and cold blooded (traits Garrett AND EVERY SHIELD AGENT OUT THERE admired). Ward WAS RECLUTED INTO SHIELD - THE GOOD GUYS - BECAUSE OF THAT TRAIT. May has the same treats.
> has killed "good" (SHIELD) people - JUST AS COULSON HAS DONE WHILE SEEKING THE SERUM. These soldiers at the bunker were just doing their jobs, or have you forgotten? Also, "good" Agent Hand had tried to make Ward execute a prisoner without a trial. Had she not, she would probably still be alive.
> an excellent liar due to his training - again, A TRAIT THE GOOD GUYS HAVE INSTILLED INTO HIM, and one he shares with May.
>has attempted to kill all the people on his team - HE NEVER ATTEMPTED TO HARM COULSON or SKYE. The fight with May was self defense. Fitzsimmons was on orders, which he tried to challenge to Garrett's face.
> has worked with people he knows have evil intentions - NO, HE WORKED WITH GARRETT TO CURE HIM after SHIELD ABANDONED him. HIS MISSION PARAMETHERS INCLUDED NO BLOODSHED, it has been discussed on screen, to compare, May has been working with Fury ON KILLING COULSON, HER FREAKING PERSONAL FRIEND, IF HE AS MUCH AS TWITCHED WRONG.

Nothing is black and white, please don't make it out to be. You will enjoy the show much more if you realize that neither SHIELD is the epitome of virtue, nor Ward is the evil to end all evils.

> escape from the jail - HE DIDNT ESCAPE FROM JAIL, HE SAID YES TO AN UNCLEAR OFFER AND WAS AS SURPRISED AS ANY OTHER INMATE WHEN THE SOLDIERS BURSTED IN.
> arsonof his family's home(let's just pass over the what we think is the "why" of the arson for a moment) - NO, LETS NOT. WE HAVE BEEN OFFERED A CANON EXPLANATION. His family had terrorized him since boyhood. It's a wonder he didn't do it sooner.
> looting of vacation cabins - INSTEAD OF STARVING? Lol. This is truly grasping at straws.
> willingly recruited to work for a threatening organization (Hydra) hidden inside a government agency (SHIELD). YES, THIS HE DID. HE IS A DOUBLE AGENT. Shame on him. This alone I can agree with, and sorry but it does not constitute a proof of evilness. Just a malleability of a 16 years old abused teen.

Way before that, if you go back through the episodes earlier in the season, the writers had Ward push little verbal barbs here and there on the other team members (Fitz, Simmons, Skye, even on May) that were not so obvious attempts at the time to cause doubt in them about Coulson's leadership.

PLEASE PROVIDE QUOTES, because I sure as hell never heard him say emu thing of the sort.

 

[Jasyn]

First of all, nobody wants him to get a free pass. People want him to redeem himself, slowly, painfully and agonically. Second of all, his punishment can and will be more figurative/internal and not involve much jail time, AS IS TYPICAL for all TV shows out there. Wanting a real life punishment on a TV show is completely unrealistic. Third of all, you saying "may or not have been abusive" is sick, canon ignorant and unrespecting to all real life abuse victims out there. We were offered a direct window into Ward's head while he was under an influence of an alien psych "drug" (read: berserker staff). It was clearly stated on screen that it UNLOCKS memories. We saw him being forced to hurt and potentially kill his little brother at about age 10. If you do not consider that abuse and emotional torture, we have nothing to talk about. Try to tell a person whose parents allowed something like that to happen to them that they "may or may have not been abused", and watch them (and social services) punch you in the face. Repeatedly.

What Garrett did to Ward was furthermore a textbook example of brainwashing, complete with the killing of a dog and cutting all his ties to other people for 5 years to the point where he was completely unable to function without orders, as seen in the finale. So, you may not want him to get on his own two feet and learn to be his own person, but plenty of people do. And honestly? I think that they are better human beings for it.

(edited and extended reply):

I appreciate that we differ on view on almost every point. I decided to revisit and expand on this, because I think you deserve my clarification on the matter. It is OK to not like someone or someone's opinion posted on the internet, but I would ask you to consider that I agree with you about the character Grant Ward and his fictional younger brother being shown on screen to have been treated abusively by an older brother in the flashback scene that you referenced. What my response comment "may or may not have been abusive" to another poster was in reference to (and meant as only light-hearted teasing), is that no other situation involving the Ward family's alleged history has been demonstrated on screen in this little drama we both enjoy watching. However, we have seen Grant Ward make on-screen general accusations about his parents and other siblings, about unconfirmed abuse and encouraged mistreatment that Grant Ward allegedly suffered and talked to other 616 Team members about. I understand that you find my comment offensive, but I don't think the general reader would and that was never my intention. On a very personal note to explain to you my experience about abusive families and people if you are interested:

Spoiler

During 2000, I worked as a correctional officer for a county Sheriff's Office dealing with many of my jails most extreme and violent inmates, many of which were in solitary confinement for violent and sexual crimes against minors. I left this career life to enlist in the military.

From 2000-2004, I worked as a police officer and for part of that time was a criminal Investigator (read: plain-clothes street detective) at a very busy United States military installation. I have worked with every type of crime that you can imagine, with the exception of dealing directly with a murder investigation. I have had more than my fair share of dealing with cases of neglect and abuse of children of various kinds.

> (Personal history item deleted by author - July 18th, 2014) <

I have a very direct history dealing with abuse victims and have nothing but respect and compassion for them.

 

[GxMega]

this is just a theory, not involving inhumans and kree, but what if the blue man is really a builder, Builders , because the incantations writen by Coulson, Garrett, and on the wall in the first episode with the robot eye (cant remember the episode) seems like it would be older than Thor and anything alive. and if thats true than Sky and her father can be an Abyss, Abyss . If you look on the website their is nothing known about either of these except Abyss are human looking white people with black hair and the Builders created them and the galaxy. the Builders in the picture dont look like the blue man but then again being in a chamber for that long and the fact that they have never been seen can make them look like anything. plus the fact that the show tries to stray from the comics makes this a possibility and maybe a new villain after Thanos. this is just a theory though so its got alot of holes

 

[Human Torch]

What's going to happen to Deathlok now?He acted as if he were going off to "make it right" as it were.Does that mean he'll be back if needed?Does he get a Netflix spin off?Or do we get a new D-Level Hero's origin this year and forget all about him?

 

[Mike Murdock]

My guess is he'll be a reoccurring guest star who appears when it would lead to a good story but otherwise isn't there. When he's not there, he's out wandering like Caine from Kung Fu.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

What's going to happen to Deathlok now?He acted as if he were going off to "make it right" as it were.Does that mean he'll be back if needed?Does he get a Netflix spin off?Or do we get a new D-Level Hero's origin this year and forget all about him?

I'm pretty sure Deathlok will return and during season 2 probably getting even more deathloked. there will be a new hero, Bobbi Morse additionally, but Mike Peterson will return