2011/2012 NBA Thread: Greatness & Awesomeness

[Mister J]

I was under the impression that Bosh's extended absence might inspire Miami's role players to be more assertive and ultimately, productive.

Nope.

 

[Raiden]

I think there's a reason why Miami was 9-1 when D-Wade was out, and 4-5 without Bosh. I think Pacers have a real chance to upset the Heat, and this series will probably be stretched to 7 games.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Yeah if Miami is not careful they might be going home this series.

 

[Matt]

I would like nothing more than to see the Heat go home early, but it is too soon to be going into panic mode. The Heat lost one game of a seven game series. A very close one at that. The Pacers can beat the Heat, but it is too soon to be saying LeBron choked or that they have no defense without Bosh or to act is if defeat is a foregone conclusion.

But here is a question for Heat fans....if they do lose, is this a sign that it is time to trade one of the big three to free up cap space in order to put depth in the lineup? The Heat has no bench. Hell, they barely have a starting five. Bosh is the obvious choice...does Miami cut ties with Bosh to try to build a stronger team or stick with the three man team for another year?

 

[Darthphere]

Thank you Matt! You should see all the bandwagon Heat fans down here in Miami saying it's over. It's ridiculous. They lost by 3 points in one of the ugliest games I've seen in a while. I fully expect them to regroup and come back strong in Game 3. I said from the beginning, you can go back if you don't believe me this was going to be a tough series.

 

[Matt]

Thank you Matt! You should see all the bandwagon Heat fans down here in Miami saying it's over. It's ridiculous. They lost by 3 points in one of the ugliest games I've seen in a while. I fully expect them to regroup and come back strong in Game 3. I said from the beginning, you can go back if you don't believe me this was going to be a tough series.

When it really comes down to it, the Pacers have quietly been one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. They are not as flashy as the Heat or Bulls and not as experienced as the Celtics, but they are well rounded and good in an understated type of way.

That being said, they are underdogs and I think if the Heat loses this game they need to reconsider their strategy. The Heat's bench is atrocious. There is no depth on that team. If selling one of the big three means a more rounded team, I think it is something that the front office really needs to consider.

 

[Matt]

Though I will say this....I do not think LeBron is a good clutch player. I think in the playoffs, when the pressure is on, he is a lot like Peyton Manning and can only perform when things are going perfectly for him. The first bit of adversity and I think he falls apart mentally. At this point in his career, if he hasn't shaken such mental blocks, he probably never will.

Fortunately for him, he'll get a ring eventually. Having signed with Miami, he said very loudly that he doesn't care about winning a ring. He just wants to have one. If another man wins it for him, so be it. So eventually his team will either carry him through or he'll get lucky like Peyton and have that one year where the stars align and everything goes perfectly. But yeah, he'll get it eventually.....maybe even this year. The Celtics are showing their age, Rose and the Bulls are out. The Lakers are a mess. Provided that last night was a fluke and that the Heat really aren't THAT bad without Bosh, Oklahoma City and MAYBE the Spurs are the only team that can stop it this year, IMO.

 

[Hound55]

Thank you Matt! You should see all the bandwagon Heat fans down here in Miami saying it's over. It's ridiculous. They lost by 3 points in one of the ugliest games I've seen in a while. I fully expect them to regroup and come back strong in Game 3. I said from the beginning, you can go back if you don't believe me this was going to be a tough series.

That said... This time of year, Indiana makes it their business to make it an ugly game...

 

[Darthphere]

But here is a question for Heat fans....if they do lose, is this a sign that it is time to trade one of the big three to free up cap space in order to put depth in the lineup? The Heat has no bench. Hell, they barely have a starting five. Bosh is the obvious choice...does Miami cut ties with Bosh to try to build a stronger team or stick with the three man team for another year?

In all honesty, I say get rid of Wade or Lebron. Before the whole decision thing happened, I said on here I rather we keep Wade and get someone like Bosh and use the cap space we used on Bron on 2-3 above average players instead of one superstar. You can go back and see. People called me crazy for this train of thought but nothing I have seen has changed my mind on that.. I mean, we got incredibly close last season if not for some late meltdowns. The Mavs IMHO were not as good as the Heat made them look. The problem is, there is no money to get some good players. I like guys like Battier who can play some defense and has a shot. Mike Miller has been disappointing IMO. But yeah, they need to get a stronger bench, someone they can rely on for instant offense. I honestly don't know if you get that through free agency or in the draft or what. I don't think the sky is falling but there are some real issues with this team.

 

[Matt]

In all honesty, I say get rid of Wade or Lebron. Before the whole decision thing happened, I said on here I rather we keep Wade and get someone like Bosh and use the cap space we used on Bron on 2-3 above average players instead of one superstar. You can go back and see. People called me crazy for this train of thought but nothing I have seen has changed my mind on that.. I mean, we got incredibly close last season if not for some late meltdowns. The Mavs IMHO were not as good as the Heat made them look. The problem is, there is no money to get some good players. I like guys like Battier who can play some defense and has a shot. Mike Miller has been disappointing IMO. But yeah, they need to get a stronger bench, someone they can rely on for instant offense. I honestly don't know if you get that through free agency or in the draft or what. I don't think the sky is falling but there are some real issues with this team.

Unfortunately there is way too much money to be made from marketing and merchandising for ownership to allow for Wade or LeBron to be traded. Bosh is the odd man out when it comes to that oh so important aspect.

That being said, I do agree with you from a purely basketball centered focus. Bosh is a great defensive player. LeBron and Wade are not. Basketball isn't the type of game where you need two offensive superstars. It is the most individualistic team sport that there is. You don't need two players scoring 30 points a game. If your star scores 30, his four teammates on the court and seven on the bench can more than make up for what another star brings to the table if you have depth. Basketball isn't the type of game where a team needs two star players. You only need one LeBron or Wade on your team, not both. However, neither can do what Bosh does. It may not be as flashy or sell as many jerseys but I guarantee it wins just as many games.

 

[Darthphere]

Unfortunately there is way too much money to be made from marketing and merchandising for ownership to allow for Wade or LeBron to be traded. Bosh is the odd man out when it comes to that oh so important aspect.

That being said, I do agree with you from a purely basketball centered focus. Bosh is a great defensive player. LeBron and Wade are not. Basketball isn't the type of game where you need two offensive superstars. It is the most individualistic team sport that there is. You don't need two players scoring 30 points a game. If your star scores 30, his four teammates on the court and seven on the bench can more than make up for what another star brings to the table if you have depth. Basketball isn't the type of game where a team needs two star players. You only need one LeBron or Wade on your team, not both. However, neither can do what Bosh does. It may not be as flashy or sell as many jerseys but I guarantee it wins just as many games.

I mean, numbers don't lie. Look at the records without Wade in the team and the numbers without Bosh in the team. It's really a telling stat.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Hopefully the 76ers can play a little better tonight and win game 3 at home. We need to win both games as do not want to go back to Boston with the series tied at 2.

 

[Hound55]

Problem is Bosh actually gives them some semblance of a rounded offence.

While Lebron stepped up a fair bit in the post this year, he remains one of the ****tiest off-the-ball players (with the obvious exception of transition - speaking only in the half-court) in the NBA at the moment.

Largely due to the environment Cleveland had him in for about 7 years... They really f***ed his development from a technical viewpoint by cramming the ball down his throat all the time.

Wade can move off the ball a bit (considerably better than Lebron), but there's only one ball and they both need it to really be effective - it limits Wade.

I'd say Wade SHOULD be the one to go out of any of the three... but I still think it would be a knee-jerk reaction (barring a really favourable trade which brings in a lot).

What Bosh brings them on the offensive end is more telling than his defensive work, to me. Yeah Wade and Lebron are going to get scored on in bunches here and there, but they're pushing for turnovers to kickstart transition, so you kind of write that off with those two.

 

[Doc Samson]

That being said, I do agree with you from a purely basketball centered focus. Bosh is a great defensive player. LeBron and Wade are not. Basketball isn't the type of game where you need two offensive superstars. It is the most individualistic team sport that there is. You don't need two players scoring 30 points a game. If your star scores 30, his four teammates on the court and seven on the bench can more than make up for what another star brings to the table if you have depth. Basketball isn't the type of game where a team needs two star players. You only need one LeBron or Wade on your team, not both. However, neither can do what Bosh does. It may not be as flashy or sell as many jerseys but I guarantee it wins just as many games.

I agree with your statement, but I know there's a lot of hypocrisy between what you just eloquently said and what a lot of people on here seem to believe. I also don't like how Bosh has been a scapegoat basically, but now all of a sudden the media is crowning him the missing ingredient. Before all everyone did was talk about how soft he was (and he is) and how there's no "Big Three" just Two and a Half men.

I think with the media in particular, they want Lebron to be what they envision him to be so bad that they can't help but contradict themselves when assessing his career. The bottomline is, Bosh or no Bosh, they were in position to at least have a tie game for that last offensive possession if Lebron made those three FT's, it's that simple. Nobody was clamoring for Chris Bosh before, even though he was more consistent then those other two in the Finals, so I think it's a little strange his importance is being so magnified now.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Problem is Bosh actually gives them some semblance of a rounded offence.

While Lebron stepped up a fair bit in the post this year, he remains one of the ****tiest off-the-ball players (with the obvious exception of transition - speaking only in the half-court) in the NBA at the moment.

Largely due to the environment Cleveland had him in for about 7 years... They really f***ed his development from a technical viewpoint by cramming the ball down his throat all the time.

Wade can move off the ball a bit (considerably better than Lebron), but there's only one ball and they both need it to really be effective - it limits Wade.

I'd say Wade SHOULD be the one to go out of any of the three... but I still think it would be a knee-jerk reaction (barring a really favourable trade which brings in a lot).

What Bosh brings them on the offensive end is more telling than his defensive work, to me. Yeah Wade and Lebron are going to get scored on in bunches here and there, but they're pushing for turnovers to kickstart transition, so you kind of write that off with those two.

The city of Miami would have a fit and riot if Wade left. He is the man on the team and got them there first ring before Lebron came to the team.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

Problem is Bosh actually gives them some semblance of a rounded offence.

While Lebron stepped up a fair bit in the post this year, he remains one of the ****tiest off-the-ball players (with the obvious exception of transition - speaking only in the half-court) in the NBA at the moment.

Largely due to the environment Cleveland had him in for about 7 years... They really f***ed his development from a technical viewpoint by cramming the ball down his throat all the time.

Wade can move off the ball a bit (considerably better than Lebron), but there's only one ball and they both need it to really be effective - it limits Wade.

I'd say Wade SHOULD be the one to go out of any of the three... but I still think it would be a knee-jerk reaction (barring a really favourable trade which brings in a lot).

What Bosh brings them on the offensive end is more telling than his defensive work, to me. Yeah Wade and Lebron are going to get scored on in bunches here and there, but they're pushing for turnovers to kickstart transition, so you kind of write that off with those two.

Unfortunately Lebron is still a horrible post player as well. He's played in the post more this year but he still has no post game meaning footwork, counter moves like up and unders, drop steps, head and shoulder fakes, all the fundamentals a good post player displays. Lebron's best post move is a turn-around fadeaway (which most players do anyway) or bullying someone as close to the rim as possible and catching the ball and going up for a quick shot. Lebron should have had those fundamentals in his arsenal by now and I agree his time in Cleveland didn't do him much good because he got to play Lebron ball all the time. A real coach would have pushed him to learn the things he's missing.

Last night the Pacers coach did a good move by not double-teaming Lebron on the low block. I've shook my head all year when watching teams double Lebron in the post because he really has no game down there. He's more like a decoy. When Lebron catches the ball in the post his primary move is to hold the ball, wait for a double and find an open shooter for a good look. Even if he has a mismatch he does this. The Pacers played him straight up last night and dared him to make a move on the block and he didn't. I could tell Lebron was waiting for that double that never came and as a result it threw him off a bit. Since he has no true post game he couldn't go to work.

 

[Matt]

I agree with your statement, but I know there's a lot of hypocrisy between what you just eloquently said and what a lot of people on here seem to believe. I also don't like how Bosh has been a scapegoat basically, but now all of a sudden the media is crowning him the missing ingredient. Before all everyone did was talk about how soft he was (and he is) and how there's no "Big Three" just Two and a Half men.

I think with the media in particular, they want Lebron to be what they envision him to be so bad that they can't help but contradict themselves when assessing his career. The bottomline is, Bosh or no Bosh, they were in position to at least have a tie game for that last offensive possession if Lebron made those three FT's, it's that simple. Nobody was clamoring for Chris Bosh before, even though he was more consistent then those other two in the Finals, so I think it's a little strange his importance is being so magnified now.

I agree, especially with the bolded part. What is funny is, the media doesn't know what they want LeBron to be.

Sometimes they want him to be the next Jordan despite the fact that the Jordan ship has long since sailed. As great as Jordan was on the court, his image was equally great. The Decision and every move LeBron has made since has destroyed any chance of him being the next Jordan.

Other times it seems like the media wants him to be the Ryan Leaf of basketball with a little of Barkley's personality (but none of his redeeming qualities) thrown in.

They seem to change what narrative they want for LeBron at the drop of a dime. Following the Knicks series and the MVP Award, they were pushing the Jordan angle. Following his loss in the finals last year (and now) they were pushing the Ryan Leaf angle.

That isn't to say LeBron is purely being victimized by the big bad media. His attitude and actions certainly do not help his case. In fact, his attitude and actions are what allows the media to define him.

But the fact is, media aside, the reality is somewhere in the middle. LeBron is probably the Brett Favre of basketball. He is top ten all time at his position, maybe even top five. But he is neither as great as his defenders paint him (Favre's defenders will say he is up there with Montana, Bradshaw and Brady) or as bad as the critics say (Favre's critics will claim he is one of the worst big names ever, but despite his post-Green Bay years, he isn't that either).

LeBron is not as good as the likes of Jordan, Kobe or even Wade. At the same time, he is far from the Ryan Leaf of basketball. He is a great player who has some serious gaps in his game (much like Favre did with his interception count) and issues with pressure in the big games.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

I agree, especially with the bolded part. What is funny is, the media doesn't know what they want LeBron to be.

Sometimes they want him to be the next Jordan despite the fact that the Jordan ship has long since sailed. As great as Jordan was on the court, his image was equally great. The Decision and every move LeBron has made since has destroyed any chance of him being the next Jordan.

Other times it seems like the media wants him to be the Ryan Leaf of basketball with a little of Barkley's personality (but none of his redeeming qualities) thrown in.

They seem to change what narrative they want for LeBron at the drop of a dime. Following the Knicks series and the MVP Award, they were pushing the Jordan angle. Following his loss in the finals last year (and now) they were pushing the Ryan Leaf angle.

That isn't to say LeBron is purely being victimized by the big bad media. His attitude and actions certainly do not help his case. In fact, his attitude and actions are what allows the media to define him.

But the fact is, media aside, the reality is somewhere in the middle. LeBron is probably the Brett Favre of basketball. He is top ten all time at his position, maybe even top five. But he is neither as great as his defenders paint him (Favre's defenders will say he is up there with Montana, Bradshaw and Brady) or as bad (Favre's critics will claim he is one of the worst big names ever, but despite his post-Green Bay years, he isn't that either).

LeBron is not as good as the likes of Jordan, Kobe or even Wade. At the same time, he is far from the Ryan Leaf of basketball. He is a great player who has some serious gaps in his game (much like Favre did with his interception count) and issues with pressure in the big games.

Sometimes they want him to be the next Magic Johnson.

 

[Matt]

Sometimes they want him to be the next Magic Johnson.

True. Though I kind of group that with the wanting him to be Jordan. LeBron is no Michael nor is he Magic.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

True. Though I kind of group that with the wanting him to be Jordan. LeBron is no Michael nor is he Magic.

Lebron should just try and be himself and nobody esle. Improve his game and create his own legacy.

 

[Hound55]

Eh, the guy's been molded by everyone and everything around him and f***ed up in the process.

I mean he was probably the best potential prospect since Wilt Chamberlain, in terms of what he could be, and instead he was screwed by too many people forcing s*** on him because they were terrified of losing their own jobs.

Now there's seven years down the drain, he's a worse off the ball guy now than he was in high-school... Fundementally, in a lot of ways he's a worse player now than in high school from the bits of footage I've seen. And his entire on-court identity has just become his innate ability to drive and create ball in hand (which admittedly has improved) and his ability to make forced shots. Both of which are largely indicative of the environment he's been in, but to the extent of actually developing a rounded game.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

Eh, the guy's been molded by everyone and everything around him and f***ed up in the process.

I mean he was probably the best potential prospect since Wilt Chamberlain, in terms of what he could be, and instead he was screwed by too many people forcing s*** on him because they were terrified of losing their own jobs.

Now there's seven years down the drain, he's a worse off the ball guy now than he was in high-school... Fundementally, in a lot of ways he's a worse player now than in high school from the bits of footage I've seen. And his entire on-court identity has just become his innate ability to drive and create ball in hand (which admittedly has improved) and his ability to make forced shots. Both of which are largely indicative of the environment he's been in, but to the extent of actually developing a rounded game.

He has the athletic ability to be the best but not the skillset or heart.

 

[Matt]

Lebron should just try and be himself and nobody esle. Improve his game and create his own legacy.

While I agree he just needs to be himself, he threw that part out the door when he asked Wade and Bosh to create his legacy for him.

As for him improving his game....at this point, LeBron probably won't get better or worse. He is what he is. I don't think he'll ever be a top ten all-time player as there are too many gaps in his game (both physically and psychologically)....I do think that he'll win a ring or two (or perhaps more appropriately have them won for him) and that is what it is.

 

[Daniel Thompson]

While I agree he just needs to be himself, he threw that part out the door when he asked Wade and Bosh to create his legacy for him.

As for him improving his game....at this point, LeBron probably won't get better or worse. He is what he is. I don't think he'll ever be a top ten all-time player as there are too many gaps in his game (both physically and psychologically)....I do think that he'll win a ring or two (or perhaps more appropriately have them won for him) and that is what it is.

Do you see him as a future hall of famer?

 

[Matt]

Do you see him as a future hall of famer?

Yes, but unless he gets a couple of rings or starts shattering records I do not think he will be first ballot.