2012: A Monster Year? (box office predictions) - Part 3

[Marvin]

I know a lot of writers write Batman to be infallible and never having a second of self-doubt. But that's a very dull version of the character to me. It let's him stand next to Superman and Wonder Woman easier because he has an almost godlike ability of knowledge and unlimited skill, but you no longer believe it's a man in a suit. He is now as much a "Greek god" as the other DC heroes.

I've personally never read one. Batman is written as leader, not always right but always certain. (there are a few heroes running around in movies these days that are missing this essential trait). Batman books are full of self doubt. I know it comes up every few posts around here but year one comes to mind. The only time I see the balance swayed is when he's in full JLA mode and even then he has his moments.

What's been done in the films(thus far) is has been to confirm the criticisms many of the real superhero fans have had against batman from the jump. "He's just a rich guy in a suit." What makes him special they ask.

Unlike say Stark whose adaptation made sure to dramatize what makes him super beyond his suit(which he built himself).

I accept that there is a place in story telling for the struggling man in a suit angle, I also believe it's the least exciting version of the character possible. Batman is amazing not because he represents a dude trying to keep up with a hyper world as best he can, he's amazing because a catalyst angered him to become "more than a man," and he goes on to represent what just a superman a driven man can become without world war two era steroids. Bruce Wayne should have died that night, as the film no doubt pretends. Not a confused man was born.

 

[Marvin]

We also don't know what he did when he was younger, beyond that he went through university at one point. We know that he is consumed by revenge until Joe Chill's death, but we know nothing about his training or experiences from the period immediately after the death of his parents until he comes back from university. He could have been training at 12. We just didn't see it.

We know he was skilled prior to meeting Ra's because he has no problem wiping the floor with that gang in the Chinese prison.

If people dislike Batman Begins because of Batman not being infallible, they must really hate BTAS because he shows doubts there and makes mistakes all the time.

No problem wiping the floor...

This is my problem with the nolan verse. It could be so much clearer.
I understand that they wanted to show how messy he was prior to Ducard's upgrade in tactics. But what I saw in that prison fight(beyond shameful camera work) was a man rolling around in the mud and barely coming out on top after belittling the situation with a couple of one liners...That scene more than any had so much potential(we're talking corrupt guards using guns on characters and said characters being so "angry" that things get really bad type potential).

The thing about BTAS is that it started out as one thing and it quickly realized how to fix it. If you look at how WB/Timm treat batman in their most recent productions it's more towards the latter.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

MD's responses are downright side-splitting.

 

[Marvin]

That is what reviewers on here have said. So in other words, Peter goes to OSCORP to learn about his dead dad and gets the powers because of his father's work. It's not random anymore. Richard Parker seems to now be the reason how Peter becomes Spider-Man. Ben is still the reason why he becomes Spider-Man.

That is lame to me.

I'll avoid the spoiler till I see it in the film context, but as long as Richard didn't experiment on his son in any way via Ang Lee's bs. I really don't see any issues or even changes apart from his father in implicated.

This still could have happened to any kid, moreover pete become spidey by chance(say he didn't go to the lab that day). I fail to see any flaw in this.

 

[DACrowe]

I think he is a leader in the film to Gordon, Dent and those around him, but when we see him alone, he has to grapple with the humanity of being this inhuman icon. In the comics I can think of Grant Morrison (not counting Arkham Asylum) as a writer who writes Batman as superhuman. Despite writing Year One, I'd say everything else Frank Millar has written of Batman has been that way (it's just Millar's worldivew is very suspect to a number of people that leads to criticism of that iteration of the character). Anytime I have seen him in a JLA story (granted I don't read much JL, but that even applies to the JL cartoon ten years ago where the more tortured Batman of TAS and BB was replaced with the universe-hopping, Wonder Woman-bedding, infallible super-being).

I very much see the post-crisis Batman (more or less) in Nolan's films. It's just one where psychology and human cost can have an effect over time while Batman in the comics must always be in a point of stasis for the story to continue.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

No problem wiping the floor...

This is my problem with the nolan verse. It could be so much clearer.
I understand that they wanted to show how messy he was prior to Ducard's upgrade in tactics. But what I saw in that prison fight(beyond shameful camera work) was a man rolling around in the mud and barely coming out on top after belittling the situation with a couple of one liners...That scene more than any had so much potential(we're talking corrupt guards using guns on characters and said characters being so "angry" that things get really bad type potential).

The thing about BTAS is that it started out as one thing and it quickly realized how to fix it. If you look at how WB/Timm treat batman in their most recent productions it's more towards the latter.

What the hell are you talking about?

Your criticism over Nolan's Universe is ridiculous. Batman is human underneath the suit, cowl and cape. Although Bruce Wayne has made Batman into more than just a man, the legend behind legend is still heavily flawed. Bruce is a sociopath himself (as portrayed in comics, tv shows, and films), and struggles on a daily basis to find peace.

 

[chaseter]

Have you even seen the movie, that's not really how it goes.

Richard experimenting on spiders and

Spoiler

creating the webbing formula

...is that wrong?

Peter going to OSCORP because of his father where he gets his powers.

So now tell me how I'm wrong...how Richard is the reason how Peter becomes Spider-Man.

 

[DACrowe]

I'll avoid the spoiler till I see it in the film context, but as long as Richard didn't experiment on his son in any way via Ang Lee's bs. I really don't see any issues or even changes apart from his father in implicated.

This still could have happened to any kid, moreover pete become spidey by chance(say he didn't go to the lab that day). I fail to see any flaw in this.

What I hear is that his father did experiment on him and they removed it from the final cut of the film.

 

[Marvin]

I think he is a leader in the film to Gordon, Dent and those around him, but when we see him alone, he has to grapple with the humanity of being this inhuman icon. In the comics I can think of Grant Morrison (not counting Arkham Asylum) as a writer who writes Batman as superhuman. Despite writing Year One, I'd say everything else Frank Millar has written of Batman has been that way (it's just Millar's worldivew is very suspect to a number of people that leads to criticism of that iteration of the character). Anytime I have seen him in a JLA story (granted I don't read much JL, but that even applies to the JL cartoon ten years ago where the more tortured Batman of TAS and BB was replaced with the universe-hopping, Wonder Woman-bedding, infallible super-being).

I very much see the post-crisis Batman (more or less) in Nolan's films. It's just one where psychology and human cost can have an effect over time while Batman in the comics must always be in a point of stasis for the story to continue.

I personally think Millar's writing one of his own characters and calling it batman. Outside of Year one that is.

An appropriate example would be when watching Sherlock, there are stories/episode when Moriarty just out maneuver's him entirely. It's really appreciated because of everything they set Sherlock out to be from the outset. What Nolan would have us endure is a Sherlock that struggles with every conclusion then being outmaneuvered by some mystery man. Yes this makes him relatable/believable all that good stuff and perhaps that's better but for me personally I just don't appreciate the situation the way I would/do in the former scenario.

I see more Batman in this new Bane character than I ever will in what Bale's doing. I'd personally love to see what would have happened if Band and Joker crossed paths.

Obstacles are great, self doubt is awesome, but it's worth nothing when you don't have to whom these things are new and unnatural occurrences.

 

[Marvin]

What I hear is that his father did experiment on him and they removed it from the final cut of the film.

problem solved.

 

[jacobed]

That's just rumor created by fans, never once were we even hinted towards that.

 

[chaseter]

I'll avoid the spoiler till I see it in the film context, but as long as Richard didn't experiment on his son in any way via Ang Lee's bs. I really don't see any issues or even changes apart from his father in implicated.

This still could have happened to any kid, moreover pete become spidey by chance(say he didn't go to the lab that day). I fail to see any flaw in this.

No thank the spider god that they took out the Ang Lee Hult crap. I would have raged. It can't happen to any teen. It seems that all the right pieces fell into place for him to become Spider-Man. If his father didn't do what he did, he wouldn't be Spider-Man. It isn't random and couldn't happen to anyone at the right place at the right time it seems. That's why I am also a bit weary at all the connections the writers put into this film.

 

[Marvin]

What the hell are you talking about?

Your criticism over Nolan's Universe is ridiculous. Batman is human underneath the suit, cowl and cape. Although Bruce Wayne has made Batman into more than just a man, the legend behind legend is still heavily flawed. Bruce is a sociopath himself (as portrayed in comics, tv shows, and films), and struggles on a daily basis to find peace.

Anyone who reads the comics and champions uber batman will be the first to tell you that the man is "flawed." That's the whole point. What they won't tell you is that he's all that average.

Personally I've seen Bale play psycho, he's really really good at it. If he brought some of that to the character I'd be pleased, but sadly he plays him pretty straight imo.

 

[Marvin]

No thank the spider god that they took out the Ang Lee Hult crap. I would have raged. It can't happen to any teen. It seems that all the right pieces fell into place for him to become Spider-Man. If his father didn't do what he did, he wouldn't be Spider-Man. It isn't random and couldn't happen to anyone at the right place at the right time it seems. That's why I am also a bit weary at all the connections the writers put into this film.

No, if his dad put something in his genes that was supplementary to the spider bite then yes Flash Thompson has no chance of becoming spiderman, but as it stands anyone could have been bit by that spider and from that point their on their own.

As for the webbing well, if you're a genius you can come up with it too.

 

[Raiden]

What the hell are you talking about?

Your criticism over Nolan's Universe is ridiculous. Batman is human underneath the suit, cowl and cape. Although Bruce Wayne has made Batman into more than just a man, the legend behind legend is still heavily flawed. Bruce is a sociopath himself (as portrayed in comics, tv shows, and films), and struggles on a daily basis to find peace.

I think Michael Keaton played a sociopathic Bruce Wayne very well, probably due to Tim Burton's direction. Although I like Christian Bale, I think his performance as Mr. Wayne seems to be rather normal, except for the voice he uses when he is under the cowl.

 

[Man in the Suit]

That's just rumor created by fans, never once were we even hinted towards that.

Then what do you think that "UNTOLD STORY" tagline was for?

They edited out of the movie and did reshoots.

 

[Doctor Jones]

So uh... does every thread on the Hype suddenly come into contact with Batman ooze and morph into a mutant Batman thread?

 

[CConn]

Then what do you think that "UNTOLD STORY" tagline was for?

They edited out of the movie and did reshoots.

They didn't have any subplots about his father working for OSCORP in the finished film?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

MD's responses are downright side-splitting.

Especially the part where I said Rachael slapping a dopey Bruce Wayne was a symbol of hope and justice.

Oh wait..YOU said that.

lmao! t:

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Especially the part where I said Rachael slapping a dopey Bruce Wayne was a symbol of hope and justice.

Oh wait..YOU said that.

lmao! t:

Wow, your reading comprehension skills must be at a fifth-grade level because you completely missed the sarcasm that was laid out for you.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

He is in Batman Begins.

Yeah and I'm saying the BB micro-origin robs the Batman character of his life-long devotion to becoming the ultimate crime fighter, his incredible readiness/adaptability, and his complete ownership of his legendary ability..

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Wow, your reading comprehension skills must be at a fifth-grade level because you completely missed the sarcasm that was laid out for you.

It sounded like the typical NOlan defense.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Anyone who reads the comics and champions uber batman will be the first to tell you that the man is "flawed." That's the whole point. What they won't tell you is that he's all that average.

Personally I've seen Bale play psycho, he's really really good at it. If he brought some of that to the character I'd be pleased, but sadly he plays him pretty straight imo.

I think Michael Keaton played a sociopathic Bruce Wayne very well, probably due to Tim Burton's direction. Although I like Christian Bale, I think his performance as Mr. Wayne seems to be rather normal, except for the voice he uses when he is under the cowl.

I'll concede that Bale's Bruce Wayne was less dysfunctional in TDK, but I severely disagree with that notion when arriving to BB. Bruce was lost, angry and confused in his journey to becoming Batman -- so much so that he'd thrown himself into a life of 'crime' to challenge himself, and quell his inner demons.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

It sounded like the typical NOlan defense.

Hmmm, if common sense and reading comprehension qualify as a 'Nolan Defense Mechanism' then I guess I'm a Nolanite.

 

[chaseter]

No, if his dad put something in his genes that was supplementary to the spider bite then yes Flash Thompson has no chance of becoming spiderman, but as it stands anyone could have been bit by that spider and from that point their on their own.

As for the webbing well, if you're a genius you can come up with it too.

Peter ends up at the right place at the right time by pure happenstance in the comics. He goes to see an event in the comics and in SM1 it's a school trip. In this, he goes to Oscorp to find out about his dad. Had his dad been alive, he wouldn't wander into Oscorp...hence no super powers. His dad was also the one who was experimenting on those spiders. I haven't seen the movie yet but I would guess the reactor room with the spiders in it has something to do with Richard. I would guess he designed it...though I can't say that one for sure. I know the spoiler part is right.

We will see about that second one. That's what was in spoilers.