7.07 - Wrath - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[Lemaris]

While we are on the subject, was anyone else bothered by Chloe's comment to Grant about "truth in journalism" in 'Kara' when she knew damn well Lois was telling the truth about the spaceship?

 

[avidreader]

I am so glad we're on the same wavelength about Chloe, because sometimes I feel so out of the loop when it comes to this character and the reactions to her. I think a lot of people really liked Chloe in this episode and how she stood up for Clark, and I can completely see that. But I dont know, I guess I just cant help but think there's something more to her words and actions. And her general sense of 'holier than thou'ness really bothered me too, above anything else, because, hello, Chloe. I dont know whether any of this is motivated by her thinking she might now have a chance with Clark. Maybe she thinks the kind of loyalty she was talking about can only come from her? Who knows. I'd like to think this isn't her reasoning and that she's smart enough to know the ship has sailed there. Bit again, who knows. And I agree generally about her sort of wierd double standards too. For all her talk of going after Lex, she never actually does anything, but actually even stops it, as was in Lois's case. And with Lana here, there was a better way to stop her descent here, or even to tell her to stop and still defend Clark but I'm not sure any of that involved taking it upon herself to just cut off what was surveillance set up by Lana, of Lex. I just found Chloe to be really wierd in this episode, to be honest. I've been trying really hard to still keep liking her, but ever since season 6, its just not been that easy.

I'm not sure her jealousy stems from her wanting to pursue a romantic relationship with Clark. I truly do believe that she knows that ship has anchored, but I do think she sees herself as Clark's secret keeper and she is bothered, jealous and upset that she no longer exclusively holds that role in his life.

 

[Syncos]

While we are on the subject, was anyone else bothered by Chloe's comment to Grant about "truth in journalism" in 'Kara' when she knew damn well Lois was telling the truth about the spaceship?

I took that as her protecting Clark and Kara.... So, No.

 

[Lemaris]

I took that as her protecting Clark and Kara.... So, No.

It was before she even knew who Kara was.

 

[TWistim]

Originally Posted by Serene
I'm debating writing a more in depth commentary about it now. I was just going to let it lie, because honestly, there is no reasoning or changing of anyone's minds when it comes to issues like these - I really don't believe that's possible, not with die-hard fans. But, it's such a great episode and it's so interesting to see how differently people are interpreting the actions of the main characters, I'd like to at least document mine and throw them into the ring as well.

I hope you do weigh in, Serene. I respect your views and you have a beautiful way of expressing things. There may be some closed minds on this board, just like any other, but there are also those of us who are open-minded. If we didn’t air our differing POVs there could be no healthy discussion. I may be opinionated (aren’t most who post?) but I do value what others think and have even changed my mind a time or two.

Originally Posted by avidreader
Wow! I was just going to read through all these posts and absorb what everyone had to say without really responding much myself, but it seems I've been a little trigger happy with the multi-quote function and I'm on the verge of a long ass post. I hope the length of my post doesn’t scare anyone off from reading it.

Great post, Sue. I always enjoy reading your responses and your take on things.

Isnt she having a normal human reaction though. Wouldn't anyone that's been through what she's been through have a bitter reaction to it all.

Yes, absolutely. I think it’s a natural human response to want to strike back at the one who has hurt you. However, part of maturing is learning that it doesn’t actually make things better if you do.

Lana was possessed in Spell, so I dont think you can use that as an example of her being intoxicated with power.

I’m not following you here. I know she was possessed but it appeared she liked the new powers. Remember her reaction when she was pushed down the stairs and landed in a heap. She got up, popped her head back in place and said, “Cool.”

Originally Posted by Captivated
Spite?! I don't see it. She had a long term friendship with Lex, and he did know how to play her... so even though it was nauseating, it was not that surprising that she hooked up with Lex.

If you watch the following episodes after Clark and Lana break up in “Hypnotic” there are several indications that her being with Lex was out of spite. In particular check out the convo that avidreader referred to from “Fragile.”

. . . to say she is just being spiteful TRIVIALIZES what he did and her RIGHT to seek justice.

Her actions in no way trivialize what Lex did. Whether Lana “turns the other cheek” or “repays evil with evil” it doesn’t say anything about Lex or change the severity of what he did to her. It only says something about Lana. Wrong is wrong. Lex’s treatment of Lana was wrong! However, if one of your kids spits on his brother and he then slaps him you don’t call it even. Both have acted badly.

Lana has every right to seek justice. She just doesn’t have a right to seek it on her own.

 

[Prison Mike]

Great post avid. I must say that I most look forward to reading posts by you, Serene, Pat, and triplet.

 

[Syncos]

I’m not following you here. I know she was possessed but it appeared she liked the new powers. Remember her reaction when she was pushed down the stairs and landed in a heap. She got up, popped her head back in place and said, “Cool.”

Lana wasn't Lana. Whenever Isobel took over, It was another person, controlling Lana's body. That doesn't count as Lana "being intoxicated with power", considering she wasn't the one using them.

Whenever Lana had magical powers, she was not the one inhabiting her body. It was an ancient, evil witch.

It can't even be related to Red K or similar effects where the host is still them, in an altered state. This is a completely different character, within the same body.

 

[Serene]

I hope you do weigh in, Serene. I respect your views and you have a beautiful way of expressing things. There may be some closed minds on this board, just like any other, but there are also those of us who are open-minded. If we didn’t air our differing POVs there could be no healthy discussion. I may be opinionated (aren’t most who post?) but I do value what others think and have even changed my mind a time or two.

Thanks, TWistim. I almost feel talked out about this episode, and I never really wrote out a full review even, just dribs and drabs here and there. One thing that seems to be unanimous - it was a pivotal episode on a lot of fronts.

I’m not following you here. I know she was possessed but it appeared she liked the new powers. Remember her reaction when she was pushed down the stairs and landed in a heap. She got up, popped her head back in place and said, “Cool.”

The episode you're referring to is Thirst, not Spell. Although perhaps you're applying your argument to both situations? I don't agree in either case. In Spell she was totally possessed by Isobel and had no free will. In Thirst, she tried to "bite" Chloe and did bite Clark. Neither of those things would have happened had she not been meteor-bat infected. I will agree that there was some underlying influence still there because she did still want to protect Clark from the other vamp chicks. I'm not sure how that goes to proving your point about her getting off on having power.

If you watch the following episodes after Clark and Lana break up in “Hypnotic” there are several indications that her being with Lex was out of spite. In particular check out the convo that avidreader referred to from “Fragile.”

Well falling into the arms of someone who knows exactly what to say and how to say it when you're hurting badly and on the rebound isn't exactly unheard of either. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that spite was a primary motivation though - even though Crimson Clark thought so. It makes sense that it would feel like spite to Clark when his former girlfriend is now with his former best friend.

Her actions in no way trivialize what Lex did. Whether Lana “turns the other cheek” or “repays evil with evil” it doesn’t say anything about Lex or change the severity of what he did to her. It only says something about Lana. Wrong is wrong. Lex’s treatment of Lana was wrong! However, if one of your kids spits on his brother and he then slaps him you don’t call it even. Both have acted badly.

Agreed, but I also think motivations have to count for something. Not to excuse behavior but certainly to help understand it better.

Lana has every right to seek justice. She just doesn’t have a right to seek it on her own.

I have to disagree. I think she does have every right to seek it on her own, more so than expecting someone else to do it for her. But the issue isn't whether or not she's owed some sort of revenge, it's more about the damage her desire for it is doing to her emotionally. Clark accepting her as a woman who isn't perfect, who does have a lot of anger, and who is determined to stop the Luthors is something that is putting them both at a crossroads. She needs to to save herself from being consumed by her anger and loss, and he needs to see her for the more complex person that she really is.

I like to think that he being who he is, will accept her in this new light, and will have more faith in her strength to survive without him when he has to leave.

 

[Syncos]

Well falling into the arms of someone who knows exactly what to say and how to say it when you're hurting badly and on the rebound isn't exactly unheard of either. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that spite was a primary motivation though - even though Crimson Clark thought so. It makes sense that it would feel like spite to Clark when his former girlfriend is now with his former best friend.

If Lana ran to Lex out of "spite", she wouldn't have hid the relationship from Clark, she'd be flaunting it. Doing something out of spite is meant to cause a reaction. Even when Clark found out, it was still awhile before she knew, he knew.

Lex was all about trying to take Lana from Clark as far back as Season 4. He surely wasn't secretive about his feelings. I think it's more of a smooth talking rebound, than a relationship out of spite.

 

[avidreader]

Great post, Sue. I always enjoy reading your responses and your take on things.

Thanks Twistim.

Yes, absolutely. I think it’s a natural human response to want to strike back at the one who has hurt you. However, part of maturing is learning that it doesn’t actually make things better if you do.

No it doesnt. But I'm not sure maturity is the key factor. If you're hurting because of something someone did to you, you would want to strike out and get back at them, no matter what your age is.

I’m not following you here. I know she was possessed but it appeared she liked the new powers. Remember her reaction when she was pushed down the stairs and landed in a heap. She got up, popped her head back in place and said, “Cool.”

I think you're talking about Thirst, and I actually agree with what Serene said in regards to that episode.

If you watch the following episodes after Clark and Lana break up in “Hypnotic” there are several indications that her being with Lex was out of spite. In particular check out the convo that avidreader referred to from “Fragile.”

Perhaps spite isnt the right work, because I think Serene has a point.

Well falling into the arms of someone who knows exactly what to say and how to say it when you're hurting badly and on the rebound isn't exactly unheard of either. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that spite was a primary motivation though - even though Crimson Clark thought so. It makes sense that it would feel like spite to Clark when his former girlfriend is now with his former best friend.

And perhaps I interpreted it as spite because I always see things from Clark's POV. However, even though Lex did manipulate her, I do think she moved on to him as quickly as she did because she felt like it would hurt Clark when he eventually found out. Whether she did this on a conscious level or not, I'm not sure of.

Great post avid. I must say that I most look forward to reading posts by you, Serene, Pat, and triplet.

Thanks K18.

I have to disagree. I think she does have every right to seek it on her own, more so than expecting someone else to do it for her. But the issue isn't whether or not she's owed some sort of revenge, it's more about the damage her desire for it is doing to her emotionally. Clark accepting her as a woman who isn't perfect, who does have a lot of anger, and who is determined to stop the Luthors is something that is putting them both at a crossroads. She needs to to save herself from being consumed by her anger and loss, and he needs to see her for the more complex person that she really is.

I like to think that he being who he is, will accept her in this new light, and will have more faith in her strength to survive without him when he has to leave.

Oh my gosh, couldnt have said it better myself.

If Lana ran to Lex out of "spite", she wouldn't have hid the relationship from Clark, she'd be flaunting it. Doing something out of spite is meant to cause a reaction. Even when Clark found out, it was still awhile before she knew, he knew.

Interesting..... I'd like to come back to this, 'cause I dont entirely agree, but I have to cook dinner. So maybe later...

 

[TWistim]

Lana wasn't Lana. Whenever Isobel took over, It was another person, controlling Lana's body. That doesn't count as Lana "being intoxicated with power", considering she wasn't the one using them.

Whenever Lana had magical powers, she was not the one inhabiting her body. It was an ancient, evil witch.

It can't even be related to Red K or similar effects where the host is still them, in an altered state. This is a completely different character, within the same body.

That is so true. I just realized that I was referencing a scene from "Thirst" instead of "Spell." My bad.

 

[TWistim]

Originally posted by Serene
The episode you're referring to is Thirst, not Spell. Although perhaps you're applying your argument to both situations? I don't agree in either case. In Spell she was totally possessed by Isobel and had no free will. In Thirst, she tried to "bite" Chloe and did bite Clark. Neither of those things would have happened had she not been meteor-bat infected. I will agree that there was some underlying influence still there because she did still want to protect Clark from the other vamp chicks. I'm not sure how that goes to proving your point about her getting off on having power.

I just realized I had confused the two episodes and no I wasn't applying my argument to both. I think the scene I described from "Thirst" shows that she really liked the fact that she was "invincible." She should have broken her neck from such a fall but she realized she now gets to live forever!

I think she does have every right to seek it on her own, more so than expecting someone else to do it for her. But the issue isn't whether or not she's owed some sort of revenge, it's more about the damage her desire for it is doing to her emotionally. Clark accepting her as a woman who isn't perfect, who does have a lot of anger, and who is determined to stop the Luthors is something that is putting them both at a crossroads. She needs to to save herself from being consumed by her anger and loss, and he needs to see her for the more complex person that she really is.

What I was meaning is that Lana, or any citizen for that matter, doesn't have a right to seek justice on their own by "taking matters into their own hands" and breaking the law. I agree that its good to see Lana fend for herself; I just think breaking the law and revenge is not the way to go.

Well falling into the arms of someone who knows exactly what to say and how to say it when you're hurting badly and on the rebound isn't exactly unheard of either. I'm not sure that I'm convinced that spite was a primary motivation though - even though Crimson Clark thought so. It makes sense that it would feel like spite to Clark when his former girlfriend is now with his former best friend.

Well, that could be one way to look at it. I just happen to see it differently. Lana had previously seen that Lex couldn't be trusted. In "Hidden" when Clark makes the statement that Lex helped them get the money for repairs after the 2nd meteor shower, Lana sarcastically replied, "Yeah, he's a real hero." She didn't trust his motives because he had pretended his main concern was protecting her after the murder of Jason's mother while his main concern had been about getting the crystal from her. At least, that's the way Lana saw it. She said, "This is about you getting your hands on that stone."

Lex did play her. He used her fear of the aliens from the black spaceship, showing her his investigations into it as a sign that he was willing to trust her when Clark wouldn't, so she should now trust him. She would have been better off to have trusted her first instinct about Lex. She was vulnerable, maybe even naive, but I still believe that a part of her knew that Lex was the one person in the world that it would bother Clark to see her with. I think this is what the writers were going for.

Originally Posted by avidreader
I'm not sure maturity is the key factor. If you're hurting because of something someone did to you, you would want to strike out and get back at them, no matter what your age is.

Agreed. But what I'm saying is that maturity is a key factor in the sense of "experience" not age. Experiencing and recognizing the consequences of revenge can help you to say no to the urge to seek revenge.

But the issue isn't whether or not she's owed some sort of revenge, it's more about the damage her desire for it is doing to her emotionally.

Agreed. This is the real issue.

 

[Syncos]

No matter how you look at it, power corrupts. That's a human flaw, not a character flaw.

 

[Serene]

Well, that could be one way to look at it. I just happen to see it differently. Lana had previously seen that Lex couldn't be trusted. In "Hidden" when Clark makes the statement that Lex helped them get the money for repairs after the 2nd meteor shower, Lana sarcastically replied, "Yeah, he's a real hero." She didn't trust his motives because he had pretended his main concern was protecting her after the murder of Jason's mother while his main concern had been about getting the crystal from her. At least, that's the way Lana saw it. She said, "This is about you getting your hands on that stone."

Lex did play her. He used her fear of the aliens from the black spaceship, showing her his investigations into it as a sign that he was willing to trust her when Clark wouldn't, so she should now trust him. She would have been better off to have trusted her first instinct about Lex. She was vulnerable, maybe even naive, but I still believe that a part of her knew that Lex was the one person in the world that it would bother Clark to see her with. I think this is what the writers were going for.

Oh, I agree that Lana knew Lex was a man who skipped over the morality line at will. When Lionel tried to warn her, she expressed her very naive and arrogant stance of thinking she could handle Lex. She was wrong, and she will pay for that unfortunate choice for a long time. This could also tangent into how she actually could have known a lot more of what she was getting into had certain friends of hers opted to share vital and damning information about Lex with her - but they didn't.

I obviously don't think Lana made a conscious choice to be with Lex because it would bother Clark. There's no canon evidence for that being the case, and I don't happen to believe that Lana ever stopped loving Clark. She wasn't the one who broke up with him.

 

[AgentPat]

This could also tangent into how she actually could have known a lot more of what she was getting into had certain friends of hers opted to share vital and damning information about Lex with her - but they didn't.

They tried. Lana wouldn't believe her friends w/o proof. How do you respond to somebody who tells you they're nobody's prey?

Commencement - Arrival - Mortal - Hidden.... all of the clues were right there in front of her. She had direct exposure to Lex and his deeds. She didn't need to be told he wasn't to be trusted, but she hooked up with him anyway. He was her consolation prize when Clark turned her down. Lana's "friends" are not to be blamed for her actions and poor choices. They tried. She didn't listen. Lana told Clark he should not blame himself.

I think one of the biggest lessons to be taught in the Superman legend is that destiny is what you make it. Your future is NOT written in stone; you decide what you will become. Superman shouldn't blame himself for the person Lana becomes anymore than he should blame himself for what Lex turns into. And THEY shouldn't blame him either. To do so is codependence.

 

[knight]

They tried. Lana wouldn't believe her friends w/o proof. How do you respond to somebody who tells you they're nobody's prey?

Commencement - Arrival - Mortal - Hidden.... all of the clues were right there in front of her. She had direct exposure to Lex and his deeds. She didn't need to be told he wasn't to be trusted, but she hooked up with him anyway. He was her consolation prize when Clark turned her down. Lana's "friends" are not to be blamed for her actions and poor choices. They tried. She didn't listen. Lana told Clark he should not blame himself.

I think one of the biggest lessons to be taught in the Superman legend is that destiny is what you make it. Your future is NOT written in stone; you decide what you will become. Superman shouldn't blame himself for the person Lana becomes anymore than he should blame himself for what Lex turns into. And THEY shouldn't blame him either. To do so is codependence.

perfectly put, and with that being said we can "lock" this thread now, any other input by ANYONE else will be unnecessary. It's not even about "opinion" anymore as what you stated is EXACTLY how it is, no (if, and's or but's) should someone disagree would just simply make them wrong, plain and simple...nuff said

 

[avidreader]

perfectly put, and with that being said we can "lock" this thread now, any other input by ANYONE else will be unnecessary. It's not even about "opinion" anymore as what you stated is EXACTLY how it is, no (if, and's or but's) should someone disagree would just simply make them wrong, plain and simple...nuff said

Oh..... okay.

 

[Serene]

They tried. Lana wouldn't believe her friends w/o proof. How do you respond to somebody who tells you they're nobody's prey?

Not by encouraging them to have sex with someone you consider a monster and then stand at their wedding to start.

Commencement - Arrival - Mortal - Hidden.... all of the clues were right there in front of her. She had direct exposure to Lex and his deeds. She didn't need to be told he wasn't to be trusted, but she hooked up with him anyway. He was her consolation prize when Clark turned her down. Lana's "friends" are not to be blamed for her actions and poor choices. They tried. She didn't listen. Lana told Clark he should not blame himself.

Exactly, Lana TOLD Clark that she has to live with the choices she made. I still think that it would been helpful for her friends to have shared some key information with her before she made those choices. I didn't see the kind of efforts to change her mind that the situation warranted, IMO. Perhaps she would have made the same choice, as I said above, she was being extremely naive about thinking she could handle Lex - but she also didn't have the entire picture to judge by - only what Lex and everyone else let her see. She knew he was a bad guy, but not nearly as bad as he really was.

I think one of the biggest lessons to be taught in the Superman legend is that destiny is what you make it. Your future is NOT written in stone; you decide what you will become. Superman shouldn't blame himself for the person Lana becomes anymore than he should blame himself for what Lex turns into. And THEY shouldn't blame him either. To do so is codependence.

Lana isn't blaming him, but Lex surely is. Lex also blames his father, but in that case, I believe he does have a point - but only to a certain degree. That's another whole huge round of debate though.

perfectly put, and with that being said we can "lock" this thread now, any other input by ANYONE else will be unnecessary. It's not even about "opinion" anymore as what you stated is EXACTLY how it is, no (if, and's or but's) should someone disagree would just simply make them wrong, plain and simple...nuff said

Great input. Thanks.

 

[AgentPat]

Not by encouraging them to have sex with someone you consider a monster and then stand at their wedding to start.

Hee!!! Lana was full-on dating Lex by Wither (she was "The Next Lex Girl") when she first slept with him...

Lana: "Careful, because I am dangerously close to being satisfied."
Lex: "Then my evil plan is working. So, what made you change your mind about gracing my arm tonight?"
Lana: "Life. Wanting to live it."

She then proceeded to take Lex's clothes off, just like she did with Clark in Mortal.

If Chloe or Clark (especially Clark!) told Lana not to have sex with Lex, Lana would have snapped back at them like a twig in the wind. What were they going to say to her? "Oh, Lana, Lex is a bad dude. Don't sleep with him." It's kind of laughable, y'know?

As to the wedding, I'm not sure what's worse - Chloe not coming clean with Lana about her misgivings, or Lana locking Chloe in a refrigerator in order to out Clark's secret.

Actually... I know what's worse. But we disagreed on that one too LOL.

Lana had already decided to NOT marry Lex but was blackmailed into doing so regardless. Chloe could have walked out of the church in a hissy fit; it still wouldn't have changed the outcome of the wedding.

...I didn't see the kind of efforts to change her mind that the situation warranted, IMO.

I'm not sure what anybody could have done. There's only so much you can say to somebody if they don't want to listen. Lana is just as bullheaded as Clark, perhaps even more-so. She's never been one to be told what to do. None of the characters are.

 

[Syncos]

perfectly put, and with that being said we can "lock" this thread now, any other input by ANYONE else will be unnecessary. It's not even about "opinion" anymore as what you stated is EXACTLY how it is, no (if, and's or but's) should someone disagree would just simply make them wrong, plain and simple...nuff said

You must be new to the idea of a discussion thread, eh?

 

[HulkofSteel]

This was probably discussed earlier, but I didn't want to filter through 33 pages and I really want to get this off my chest:

Was anyone else bothered by the fact that the sex being had by two super-powered beings caused tremors felt around Kansas but was unable to do any physical damage to the Kent farm?

I undestand that loose sex and free love (trends in the 60s and 70s) are still popular today, but this is ridiculous. It seems like the writers will take any opportunity they can to make Clark more like the majority around him, as though the majority decides what is right and wrong. When will Smallville mature?

 

[avidreader]

This was probably discussed earlier, but I didn't want to filter through 33 pages and I really want to get this off my chest:

Was anyone else bothered by the fact that the sex being had by two super-powered beings caused tremors felt around Kansas but was unable to do any physical damage to the Kent farm?

I undestand that loose sex and free love (trends in the 60s and 70s) are still popular today, but this is ridiculous. It seems like the writers will take any opportunity they can to make Clark more like the majority around him, as though the majority decides what is right and wrong. When will Smallville mature?

I dont understand the point you're trying to make.

 

[Cmill216]

This was probably discussed earlier, but I didn't want to filter through 33 pages and I really want to get this off my chest:

Was anyone else bothered by the fact that the sex being had by two super-powered beings caused tremors felt around Kansas but was unable to do any physical damage to the Kent farm?

I undestand that loose sex and free love (trends in the 60s and 70s) are still popular today, but this is ridiculous. It seems like the writers will take any opportunity they can to make Clark more like the majority around him, as though the majority decides what is right and wrong. When will Smallville mature?

x =

 

[Serene]

If Chloe or Clark (especially Clark!) told Lana not to have sex with Lex, Lana would have snapped back at them like a twig in the wind.

Maybe. But you're speculating, just as I am, since the situation never came up. You may be right, but we'll never know. My point is that I think the situation warranted more than was offered.

I'm not sure what anybody could have done. There's only so much you can say to somebody if they don't want to listen. Lana is just as bullheaded as Clark, perhaps even more-so. She's never been one to be told what to do. None of the characters are.

Ultimately, the path was for Lana to marry Lex and for that whole purple house of cards to come raining down on her head. Speculating within the aired canon though makes me question Chloe's motivations more than ever now. But this could easily deteriorate into a Chloe bashing rant on my part, so I'll pull back and play nice now.

 

[Serene]

This was probably discussed earlier, but I didn't want to filter through 33 pages and I really want to get this off my chest:

Was anyone else bothered by the fact that the sex being had by two super-powered beings caused tremors felt around Kansas but was unable to do any physical damage to the Kent farm?

I undestand that loose sex and free love (trends in the 60s and 70s) are still popular today, but this is ridiculous. It seems like the writers will take any opportunity they can to make Clark more like the majority around him, as though the majority decides what is right and wrong. When will Smallville mature?

Perhaps you should have read a few pages then.
The barn WAS damaged, quite impressively with several large holes in the roof that Clark was on his way out to repair when Chloe came in.

"Loose sex and free love" aren't exclusive to the 60's and 70's, regardless I didn't see any of that happening in this episode.