Justice League A Defense of Warners

[Captain Marvel]

Thanks for the stats, I've seen them, but I meant your take. How does a film that merits so much discussion, even 4+ years later, rate as "average"? Do you talk about the average hamburger you ate at a diner every Christmas, or do you forget about it and enthuse about the much better hamburger you enjoyed at a steakhouse? You honestly think MoS is merely "average"? To me, it's clearly not.

Nope. You're right. It's not average. It's below average. Like you say, nobody keeps talking about the average hamburger they ate a couple years ago. But the godawful hamburger they ate that made them vomit all over the restaurant floor and gave them explosive diarrhea? Yeah, that tends to come up from time to time, and you still have sour feelings towards the people who made that hamburger. And so it is with Man of Steel.

 

[Captain Marvel]

Well, in a sense, I agree with you. I don't think Man of Steel was average.

I think Man of Steel was *terrible*. It just was terrible primarily in the manner of characterization and narrative theme, while it held together adequately in terms of functionality as a movie. Thus its better reviews than BvS, which was also poorly constructed.

And *that* is why people still talk about it: not because its good, but because they passionately hate what it did to the character. This is not really a good thing.

Exactly right. Man of Steel was just a terrible movie all around. Where to even begin?

- The Kents are flat out horrible people. It's a surprise that they didn't raise Space Hitler, with the kinds of horrible inhuman lessons they were teaching Clark.
- Superman has almost zero empathy for humanity whatsoever. The only people he seems to care about are his adoptive mother and a woman he wants to have sex with.
- The post-apocalyptic destruction inflicted on Metropolis, in part, by a Superman who didn't care about the destruction. A proper Superman would've done everything he could've to mitigate the damage inflicted. Not happily smash his way through buildings only to make out with Lois Lane right after over the ashes of the dead and the dying.
- He killed Zod. Here's a character who's adamant about not killing, and when being newly reintroduced to the audiences, we should've gotten one who would've found some other way to beat the bad guy besides snapping his neck.
- The film was just so damned dour and depressing. It wasn't hopeful or inspiring in the slightest, which a Superman movie should be. Tonally, it was more like The Dark Knight or Watchmen, which are NOT the right tone for a Superman movie.

Another big reason why people are still talking about it, despite its being terrible, is the fact that we're still seeing the repercussions of that lousy movie play out before our eyes all the time. For example, I consider Superman Returns to be an atrocious movie, but I rarely give it two thoughts. Why? Because nothing ever came of it. It was a one-off failure that came and went. Man of Steel, however, led to Batman V Superman, which led to Justice League. It not only ruined the character of Superman, but it then led to a movie which ruined Batman and Lex Luthor, which then led to a movie which had the Flash in a godawful costume which then became a dismal bomb, tarnishing the Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Cyborg. The negative repercussions of Man of Steel have been felt for years, and will continue to be felt for years until the DCEU dies out completely or the Snyder films are retconned out.

Is it any wonder, then, that people still talk about it?

 

[Patchwork Man]

Filming begins in February for Man of Parks and Recreation. I'm sure it'll be a hit.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

So, question for you guys, in a scenario where Zack's horrible personal tragedy did not happen and he was chugging along on the film, do you guys think the outcome would've likely been the same? The studio bringing Whedon in and gradually pushing Snyder out of the editing room?

I believe the rumors he was fired before the personal tragedy ever happened. I don't think we would have seen such an immediate and sudden reversal in the project otherwise. Whedon didn't come in to finish Snyder's film. He came in to totally revamp it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Another big reason why people are still talking about it, despite its being terrible, is the fact that we're still seeing the repercussions of that lousy movie play out before our eyes all the time. For example, I consider Superman Returns to be an atrocious movie, but I rarely give it two thoughts. Why? Because nothing ever came of it. It was a one-off failure that came and went. Man of Steel, however, led to Batman V Superman, which led to Justice League. It not only ruined the character of Superman, but it then led to a movie which ruined Batman and Lex Luthor, which then led to a movie which had the Flash in a godawful costume which then became a dismal bomb, tarnishing the Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Cyborg. The negative repercussions of Man of Steel have been felt for years, and will continue to be felt for years until the DCEU dies out completely or the Snyder films are retconned out.

Is it any wonder, then, that people still talk about it?

If your house falls down, the first place you like for the cause is in the foundations.

 

[elgaz]

If your house falls down, the first place you like for the cause is in the foundations.

Not always t:t:

 

[FunkMiller]

Not always t:t:

Heh. Shannon was good value, that’s for certain.

 

[kguillou]

I believe the rumors he was fired before the personal tragedy ever happened. I don't think we would have seen such an immediate and sudden reversal in the project otherwise. Whedon didn't come in to finish Snyder's film. He came in to totally revamp it.

Thats what I think. After Snyder screened the movie for his bosses and it was essentially "BvS UE part 2" they decided right then and there that they needed to remake the film, somehow, in less than seven month's time. THEY brought in Whedon and I think he was going to quietly take charge of the project behind the scenes regardless and Snyder would've let them because he's a good soldier.

 

[The Guard]

I don't know that WB needs defending per se, because there have been some missteps from a product standpoint, but I do think WB had an uphill battle with this one.

After BVS, I think a certain amount of negative reaction should have been expected. The narrative was just…bad. It was bad after BVS, and it was going to be very difficult to get good reviews on any level after BVS with Snyder attached. And with a troubled production, and the narrative that arose after that...it's a PR nightmare, but it was already a PR nightmare. It wasn’t magically not going to be a PR nightmare because of WONDER WOMAN.

From an actual filmmaking standpoint critics and audiences more or less DEMANDED many of the kinds of changes that WB made for JUSTICE LEAGUE. Now WB is being condemned for making many of them, and for being reactive, which is what a business is supposed to do; listen to customer concerns.

I think we'd all like a longer movie, but the last time WB made a long movie, it was the 2:30 BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, and complaints about its length were endless. Maybe they felt 2:20 or 2:15 wasn't worth the risk.

I suspect that, at least right before release, WB saw a lot of this coming. If anything, the “two hour mandate” may have saved the studio from losing even MORE money this time around.

I also think the assumption that there’s this amazing, 3 hour cut that fleshes out EVERYTHING and somehow doesn’t meander and lose focus and contain the exact same types of issues that people complained about with BVS...that’s a bit much. WB (and if what we're told is true, Snyder) didn't bring Whedon in on a lark. Whatever it was they thought audiences wanted, Snyder's cut didn't seem to have enough of it.

WB is in a tough position as a studio. They were in a tough position after BVS. They made a business decision. Hindsight is 20/20, but if you have a major merger pending, and you push back your franchise, when it is reasonably expected that course correction can occur otherwise…I dunno.

I keep hearing "WB had no plan". WB had a very clear plan. It wasn’t what audiences and critics wanted, and it didn’t work (from a marketing perspective, at the least), and they’re struggling with a bad reaction as a result. They started giving audiences and critics what they wanted, and there’s been some improvement in the reaction to the “product”. That’s a pretty normal occurrence in business, and there's no reason to believe that can't continue. They do need to find a way to control the narrative.

The good news is that in many respects, Warner Brothers already course corrected. They are capable of making excellent superhero films. WONDER WOMAN is proof of that. There was a course correction made prior to JUSTICE LEAGUE filming. AQUAMAN seems to be going fine. Snyder isn’t going to be in charge of everything moving forward. The budgets will be kept under control moving forward. The runtimes will be kept under control, etc. WB is finding their way. They have stumbled, clearly. But they’re on the right track.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't know that WB needs defending per se, because there have been some missteps from a product standpoint, but I do think WB had an uphill battle with this one.

After BVS, I think a certain amount of negative reaction should have been expected. The narrative was just…bad. It was bad after BVS, and it was going to be very difficult to get good reviews on any level after BVS with Snyder attached. And with a troubled production, and the narrative that arose after that...it's a PR nightmare, but it was already a PR nightmare. It wasn’t magically not going to be a PR nightmare because of WONDER WOMAN.

From an actual filmmaking standpoint critics and audiences more or less DEMANDED many of the kinds of changes that WB made for JUSTICE LEAGUE. Now WB is being condemned for making many of them, and for being reactive, which is what a business is supposed to do; listen to customer concerns.

I think we'd all like a longer movie, but the last time WB made a long movie, it was the 2:30 BATMAN VS SUPERMAN, and complaints about its length were endless. Maybe they felt 2:20 or 2:15 wasn't worth the risk.

I suspect that, at least right before release, WB saw a lot of this coming. If anything, the “two hour mandate” may have saved the studio from losing even MORE money this time around.

I also think the assumption that there’s this amazing, 3 hour cut that fleshes out EVERYTHING and somehow doesn’t meander and lose focus and contain the exact same types of issues that people complained about with BVS...that’s a bit much. WB (and if what we're told is true, Snyder) didn't bring Whedon in on a lark. Whatever it was they thought audiences wanted, Snyder's cut didn't seem to have enough of it.

WB is in a tough position as a studio. They were in a tough position after BVS. They made a business decision. Hindsight is 20/20, but if you have a major merger pending, and you push back your franchise, when it is reasonably expected that course correction can occur otherwise…I dunno.

I keep hearing "WB had no plan". WB had a very clear plan. It wasn’t what audiences and critics wanted, and it didn’t work (from a marketing perspective, at the least), and they’re struggling with a bad reaction as a result. They started giving audiences and critics what they wanted, and there’s been some improvement in the reaction to the “product”. That’s a pretty normal occurrence in business, and there's no reason to believe that can't continue. They do need to find a way to control the narrative.

The good news is that in many respects, Warner Brothers already course corrected. They are capable of making excellent superhero films. WONDER WOMAN is proof of that. There was a course correction made prior to JUSTICE LEAGUE filming. AQUAMAN seems to be going fine. Snyder isn’t going to be in charge of everything moving forward. The budgets will be kept under control moving forward. The runtimes will be kept under control, etc. WB is finding their way. They have stumbled, clearly. But they’re on the right track.

How is WB on the right track.....?

The biggest superhero film they, or anyone, has ever made was just a critical and financial dud and is set to lose them tens of millions. It's clear that audiences have widely rejected their shared universe save for one solo film. They've thrown almost twenty films into various stages of production with only two or three guaranteed to come out within the next couple years. The brand is undeniably damaged.

Please, explain how any of this tells you that WB is on the right track.

 

[Greens]

Please, explain how any of this tells you that WB is on the right track.

We heard the exact same thing before JL. It's gonna keep happening until they just pull the plug.

 

[Flint Marko]

We heard the exact same thing before JL. It's gonna keep happening until they just pull the plug.

I get having optimism but this feels like a Cleveland Browns fan looking at another winless season and going, "Yup, it'll all be smooth sailing from here!"

 

[mclay18]

So, you're happy writing Aquaman, Shazam and Wonder Woman 2 off, despite that Snyder isn't involved and all three directors (Wan, Sandburg, Jenkins) have made profitable and enjoyable films for them on budget and on time.

I wouldn't write off Whedon's Batgirl or Matt Reeves' Batman either. Those are likely to get made due to the directors' past resumes.

 

[Milkman95]

Man, this thread was started with an OPINION, not a fact - and I see other comments, which I didn't bother to read all the way through because of their overly-biased takes and selfish comic book views, repeat the same garbage. Stay classy fanboys, LOL......because you know what's best after all.

 

[FunkMiller]

So, you're happy writing Aquaman, Shazam and Wonder Woman 2 off, despite that Snyder isn't involved and all three directors (Wan, Sandburg, Jenkins) have made profitable and enjoyable films for them on budget and on time.

I wouldn't write off Whedon's Batgirl or Matt Reeves' Batman either. Those are likely to get made due to the directors' past resumes.

It’s the DCEU that’s rightly being written off... not movies of these respective properties.

 

[Flint Marko]

It’s the DCEU that’s rightly being written off... not movies of these respective properties.

Yup. And the hilarious idea that the WB are "on the right track".

 

[dougal]

I believe the rumors he was fired before the personal tragedy ever happened. I don't think we would have seen such an immediate and sudden reversal in the project otherwise. Whedon didn't come in to finish Snyder's film. He came in to totally revamp it.

It is funny. I made several post saying the same thing. He was fired. You know that because he was not even allowed to see the final cut. They fired him.

All my posts that I have made on these forums, for the most part, were deleted. I have no idea why they disappeared but assume mods thought it was a troll post.

 

[The Batman]

I feel like quite a few people rejected certain notions before the film came out, like the idea that he was fired from JL even before his daughter's death, or the idea that it probably wasn't his idea to put Batman in a MOS sequel.

 

[Mandon Knight]

There is very little 'defence' of a studio that seem to have a desperate self-destruct wish in kiboshing their own films at such an alarming rate.

 

[GreenKToo]

I love superman, he has always been my favorite character, but, while I love Cavill AS Superman, I feel snyder's take on superman himself was off.
This Superman has always felt unapproachable to me, like if you met tom cruise or RDJ on the street, they would most likely tell you to pi$$ off, or ignore you completely.

His clark was fine tho.

I didn't really have a problem with the runtime in JL, my problems were the editing, the very noticeable bad CG on Superman and steppenwolf, batman cracking one liners, etc.
Practical effects for steppenwolf on closeups would have been way better, you could tell it was fake and it totally took me out of the film.

The coverup of Cavills stache by CG was very noticeable also. what idiot thought that was ok?

 

[Mysteryman]

I love superman, he has always been my favorite character, but, while I love Cavill AS Superman, I feel snyder's take on superman himself was off.
This Superman has always felt unapproachable to me, like if you met tom cruise or RDJ on the street, they would most likely tell you to pi$$ off, or ignore you completely.

His clark was fine tho.

I didn't really have a problem with the runtime in JL, my problems were the editing, the very noticeable bad CG on Superman and steppenwolf, batman cracking one liners, etc.
Practical effects for steppenwolf on closeups would have been way better, you could tell it was fake and it totally took me out of the film.

The coverup of Cavills stache by CG was very noticeable also. what idiot thought that was ok?

The mustache thing didn't bother me.
WB didn't have much of a choice after Paramount refused to let Henry shave it off.

 

[jmc]

How is WB on the right track.....?

The biggest superhero film they, or anyone, has ever made was just a critical and financial dud and is set to lose them tens of millions. It's clear that audiences have widely rejected their shared universe save for one solo film. They've thrown almost twenty films into various stages of production with only two or three guaranteed to come out within the next couple years. The brand is undeniably damaged.

Please, explain how any of this tells you that WB is on the right track.

The reality is they are not. And as for WB's plan, the only goal was to get to JL. That's it. There was no semblance of logic in how they got to JL. How does this line up of films actually make sense as a build up to JL?

Man of Steel
Batman v Superman
Suicide Squad
Wonder Woman

Nothing about this plan makes a lick of sense. You've got an underdeveloped Batman with no solo film to his name, you've got a pointless Guardians of the Galaxy ripoff that has no effect on what comes next, you've got a Wonder Woman movie that is set 100 years before the events of the other movies, and you've got half the bloody characters of the team up film without their own introductory movie. This is nonsensical. You either start with JL as a fully formed team and branch off from there with spin off movies, or you build up to it like what Marvel did over the course of 4 or 5 solo films.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Signed.

WB was so arrogant that they thought we wouldnt need a good build up for this universe.
They wanted to make money fast and expected the movies to just click with the people.

Seems all they are doing is taking cool scenes and events from comic books and not trying to make them flow, or make sense in relation to the larger story.

 

[Micromind]

I cannot defend WB. Their plan was faulty, who green lighted Justice League after BvS ?

they should have made MoS 2 after BvS, and established Superman as a superhero.

They should have made Flash solo movie and a Batman solo movie, only after that, they should have made a movie like Justice League.

When the plan itself is faulty from start, there's little to defend.

 

[STARMAN]

Having Snyder direct BvS and JL back to back after MOS was inexcusable.