Comics A great article on how marvel destroyed Spider-man.

That numbing by the way, is a business man's worst nightmare. I've gotten to that point as well.

The opposite of love is NOT hate, it is indifference.
 
I don't know about the rest of you, but my LCS, Civil War and Spider-man titles are the most purchased comic titles.

My LCS has had to double there order of CW and AMS to keep up with demand.

Oh and as far as the current state of Spider-man, i actually like it. it's different. how many times can someone read the same rehashed story about spider-man fighting the same (insert villian here).

like mypokershirt says, he'll eventually realize what he has done, he will switch sides and all will be well and good.

isnt that what makes peter parker so special, the fact that we can relate to him. the fact that all of us on here have made a decision at some point in our lives that we might not have made initially and then gone back and taken a different angle on it later on.

you all remembered when superman died? what's his current state? exactly.
 
shinlyle said:
I don't read any of the Spider-man books aside from Sensational (which'll probably be dropped thanks to the events of CW), and that means I've done my own small part to voice my opinion about the changes. That's all I can do, shy of getting a gig at Marvel writing ASM and changing things my damn self, which I'd glady do, if it were that easy.

So, yeah, I agree with the guy, but I'm really just numbed to everything having to so with Spider-man nowadays. The teaser for Spider-Man 3 was the first time I've smiled at anything Spidey-related in awhile. I bought and read Spider-Man/Human Torch this past weekend, and I smiled and laughed myself silly. I'm reading the Essentials right-on, and they make me positively giddy at how great they are. 616 Spidey hasn't made me smile at an in-continuity story since I (heart) Marvel: Web of Romance.


I'm not buying the 616 books anymore, either. Oddly, it was my efforts to save Spider-Girl that caused me to drop the regular books. In the past I stuck with Spider-Man thinking it will get better. But then I realized that by paying for something I thought was garbage, I was supporting it. The only way Spider-Man will get better again is if people who love the character stop buying the comics.

And, yeah, the Spidey/Human Torch mini was gold. And Web of Romance was good, too.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
you are the biggest prick going, u know that? i didnt get personal at all with you, but you can't seem to handle anyone disagreeing with you. You're pathetic. Its all simply a matter of opinion and i expressed mine. The comic industry is in better condition now than its been in 10 years. FACT. all i tried to illustrate before was how tried giving up marvel, came back to comics through independents and ended up at marvel again cos of how good their comics have been. spider-man has been in a bit of a mess, but you are seriously hyped up and SCREWED up over this. chill, man. As for the spider-man history what are you on about?? I have read so many stories where heroes meet cap and are full of admiration for him. even ol' loner logan and a norse god. there really aren't any particular ties between pete and cap. as you said yourself, spider-man has always been a bit of a loner. hence no previous strong affiliations. it makes far more sense for poor li'l scientist pete to team up with rich big scientist tony. Writers who have been doing their job for 20years can see it, but you, a uptight upset fanboy cant? oh no, you're right, sorry, i just MUST agree with you. get off your high horse.

i really am sorry this has degraded to an argument. i just wanted to show that there is no "right" side to this (rather like the war) and you can't blindly defend your opinion with insults, matey.

It degraded to an argument when you started to show your true colors. Most of the things your saying sounds like pure Marvel propaganda and you can see that by the way you talk about sales figures other than the story and the way you talk about fan boys. You don't know your history because if you did, you would have known how Peter respects Cap and his ideals, not the flimsy arguments you give that strangely sounds like the type of stuff Joe Q and his fellow lackeys say to excuse his bad decision making.
 
shinlyle said:
My opinion on the article: Meh. It's ben repeated ad nauseum on these boards, and every other comic message board out there, and it's been said better.

Do I agree with him? Yeah. I just can't bring myself to care anymore. Marvel's going to do what they want when they want to whatever character they want, and that's that. I've been incessantly complained about the status of the books since "Sins Past". I bought the books in the hopes that things would improve, and then I dropped all except Sensational after "The Other". I will soon be dropping Sensational, more likely than not, and then I will be reading no other 616 Spider-books.

Hence, why I haven't been posting here as much, lately. I just don't have the energy to keep reiterating the same tired arguments (no matter how correct they may be) in different threads over and over. The books are horrible, but people still buy them, so Marvel sees it as a success, and rightfully so. There's no reason for them to change what they're doing is people are going to pay 3 bucks a pop every month so that they can righteously b**** about them on the internet.

I WAS reading ASM in the store and just not buying them so that I could still criticise the book. Then I thought about how it wasn't cool of me to do that to me LCS owner, so I said "To hell with it", and walked away.

I don't read any of the Spider-man books aside from Sensational (which'll probably be dropped thanks to the events of CW), and that means I've done my own small part to voice my opinion about the changes. That's all I can do, shy of getting a gig at Marvel writing ASM and changing things my damn self, which I'd glady do, if it were that easy.

So, yeah, I agree with the guy, but I'm really just numbed to everything having to so with Spider-man nowadays. The teaser for Spider-Man 3 was the first time I've smiled at anything Spidey-related in awhile. I bought and read Spider-Man/Human Torch this past weekend, and I smiled and laughed myself silly. I'm reading the Essentials right-on, and they make me positively giddy at how great they are. 616 Spidey hasn't made me smile at an in-continuity story since I (heart) Marvel: Web of Romance.

I'm not going to hat eon either side of the argument, simply because neither side can change anythign so long as both sides are buying the books. I'm going to take my extra coinage per month and give it to an indy book, or put it towards a house or something. To hell with paying for s*** I don't even like.

:up:
See this is why it's impossible to disagree with you Shin *claps*
 
I admit I quit reading about a little over a year ago. I mean the writing wasn't terrible then (I was enjoying MIller's run on Spider-Man) but I have drifted from comics.

Literally, TODAY, in the last 24 hours I found out about this Spidey suit, him being an Avenger and HE ****ING REVEALED HIMSELF TO THE WORLD.

I am late, blah blah blah, but damn. Now I have no inclination to read Spider-Man comics again....okay maybe not. But I came here to get caught up 'cause I wanted to pick back up....but disheartened hardly describes it.
 
P.S. It was Sin's Past that finally got me to put down Spider-Man by the way (if anyone actually cares though).
 
I do not claim to speak for anyone. My LCS as plenty of CW comics and AMS if anyone wants any. My major complaint is that Marvel is ignoring it's long term fans in favor of it's new readers who may have picked up the book due to media intrest or the movies. However what is gonna happen to the fans who just came in when Spider-man goes back to the way he was(and he will). How many fans of Morrison's New X-men still read X-men??????
 
Marvel sadly HAS destroyed Spidey over the years...(their main character even!!!)....so, these are my opinions...from someone who has grown up with Spider-man over the long run...

1.) Canceling a series for marketing purposes. Only one Ex: Amazing Spider-Man,....mess up the numbering of their series, rename the series, renumber,....then restart the numbering of the series where once left off, etc....on and on....bad choices that kick us long time LOYAL readers in the butt. It was and is very annoying. ((By the way, they wonder why TPB's sell better now than the comics themselves...the answer my friends is in the above paragraph. The comic makers have long destroyed any incentive in collecting runs of any series...))

2.) Portrayal of Gwen Stacy. I mean, actually reread all of her stories when she was alive and current. There was never ANY indication whatsoever that she was ANYTHING like some tramp who'd sleep with an old man, the father of her friend (Harry), and then get rid of her love-children in another country and lie about it to everyone for years. Not an inkling of anything like that for her character. Seriously....if there was something a writer actually had, and angle or tidbit in her personality that they could twist in that direction, something credible...that is one thing...but when someone just writes something with no respect for past writers, characters or us, out of the blue...it is just for shock value.

3.) Cloning...which essentially made the real Spidey we read about for 20 years really just the "Amazing Adventures of A Fake"...everything i read before didn't matter when they did that-it was just adventures of a clone that i had been reading all those years, they wanted me to believe. Then making us read about the new "REAL" Spider-Man "Ben" for two years of our lives (in real time), only to eventually tell us the new real spidey Ben now is really not real and the Spider-Man we loved and grew up with is indeed REAL. Thanks for wasting our time guys...who didn't see THAT coming?? If you write a story, make it so that it can continue on and matter, like they did in the past...or some sort of elseworlds-those kind of stories CAN be quite interesting....but none of this shock value sell a couple extra comics crap...then months or years later it never happened or mattered. If it will stand the test of time-that can help you decide whether or not it is a good story idea possibly?!?? If you're gonna want to pretend it didn't happen a year later...maybe skip that idea...or put into another format!!??....Unless there is some other strong logic for it.

4.) Dumb new costumes. I mean, again, change IS indeed neato and swell if done right....BUT.....why does Spider-Man need armor and tentacles that make him look like the Iron Octopus!?? This isn't Spider-Ham....heck THAT series was handled better than Spider-Man these days. Seriously...costume changes can be "ok" if done right and not routinely. The Black Costume was real cool in fact. It was new and fresh...and led to a great villian-the costume itself and later Venom/Eddie Brock. There was a new idea, and it didn't just "disappear" as a storyline that didn't mean anything and was pointless.

5.) Origin changes......no longer bitten by radioactive spider...Pete REALLY got his powers from a magical totem pole. This was no "tweak" either...but a total jump into a whole new whacky origin. Let me tell you, really, it is much easier for me personally to relate to the magical totem pole origins over a high school accident and a spider-bite.

6.) Power changes. Let's give spider-man pop out claws...i mean, wolverine sells great and he has claws. Let's also give him ant-man powers-so he can talk to spiders AND his hairy back and arms can help determine the wind and weather. Swell!!! And while we're at it, Spidey's eyes can be eaten completely and they'll grow back thanks to these nifty new magical totem pole powers. Finally!...Pete can fight Mike Tyson without fear. Ear gone??...no prob...Totem pole powers-Activate, in form of ear!

7.) Spidey unmasking.....it is not like Peter's character has ever coincided with anything to do with responsibility. Why would he care if he jeapordized his students, the city, his wife, his family, his friends..etc. Those have NEVER been his concerns in the past when thoughts of his identity came up. I mean, afterall, Iron Man WANTED him to take off his clothes...that explains it. And it's not like Peter in his life has ever had any experience with pressure or stress, that would've helped him with the peer pressure of unmasking on live tv. And we know, Spider-Man has always been willing to do anything in his power to please and impress others like Iron Man. It is a good thing no-one like NFL Super-Pro or Silver Surfer asked him to do something bizarre, or you never know what Spidey would have resorted to at a live press conference! At least the unmasking solves the new Iron Octopus Costume problem...now he doesn't even NEED ANY costume...in fact, it is worthless and pointless to even wear. He can just wear a Spidey Head-band and some sweatpants- this will let his face breathe better too. No, the real reason he unmasked is not because Iron Man pressured him, or because it makes sense for the character like some Marvel employees right now will try and tell us, or because us fans DEMAND THESE "KIND" OF CHANGES...(Doh!!) but because ...it will help SELL Civil War and make MONEY.

8.) Mary Jane. While flushing Spider-Man down the toilet, lets also talk about rumors of getting rid of Mary Jane. I mean, it is not like us readers can associate with married life....(Oy!!).... Why is it that many writers in the 70's on up wrote supporting characters so well (and relationships in general of sorts) and now writers are clueless about how to handle mulitple characters or real life issues such as marriage!? We've already shrunk Spidey's once big supporting cast and whittled it down to squat, why do we need to take another supporting character out too?? Spidey used to be great too, in my opinion, because he had that great supporting cast and little side stories with characters always flowing along. Maybe if we weren't just doing 10 issue runs and starting over new #1's of the same comic title yearly, we'd get somewhere with actual character development?? The problem is, comics now put the writer or the artist's satisfaction first. (and also the stock holders and board of directors.) While this is good and all...comics used to be about the fans first and it was clear back then in the "old days": the customers were #1. A smart business trys to remember that.

Sorry so long, but it is just SO dissapointing to have a character with so much history, and a history you've grown up reading....getting trashed by poor stories that eventually don't matter, were pointless, not respectful and didn't "happen". This is Marvel's MAIN character too..why aren't they busy trashing other characters and histories with stories that mean nothing as they've so thoroughly dissed Spidey's universe. Why isn't there a single writer standing up for Spidey and speaking out against the stupidity??

I mean, DC in the past had some really dippy stories...but would they consider giving Superman pop out claws and have him tell the world he is Clark Kent just because Batman made him wear Bat armor and told him to expose himself on TV!?? (haha...sounds funny) Maybe he is not from Krypton either!! (Powers derived from the magical "He-man" totem-pole, naturally!) DC could make money and redefine their mainstay like Marvel is. Kill off Lois too, but not before revealing she too secretly slept with Norman Osborn, during one of those past Marvel DC Crossover Events.

Sadly, the fact is, i used to be left with a sense of wondering what would happen in the NEXT issue of Spider-Man....Now I'm left with a sense of wondering when they'll "officially forget" or "fix" the current storyline.

Spider-Man was always fun and moving, great to pick up. Now, i find more satisfaction in other superhero comics that haven't been manhandled over the years, that have changed, but with purpose and respect. I've been trying to stick with Spidey, because i have so many great memories reading him...and i sincerely really WANT to enjoy my favorite superhero: Spider-man. It stinks to think I may have to give up reading about my favorite superhero just because higher-ups don't care about him, or what makes him who he is, just so that they can SHOCK people and earn a couple new short-term readers.
 
farmernudie said:
Marvel sadly HAS destroyed Spidey over the years...(their main character even!!!)....so, these are my opinions...from someone who has grown up with Spider-man over the long run...

1.) Canceling a series for marketing purposes. Only one Ex: Amazing Spider-Man,....mess up the numbering of their series, rename the series, renumber,....then restart the numbering of the series where once left off, etc....on and on....bad choices that kick us long time LOYAL readers in the butt. It was and is very annoying. ((By the way, they wonder why TPB's sell better now than the comics themselves...the answer my friends is in the above paragraph. The comic makers have long destroyed any incentive in collecting runs of any series...))

2.) Portrayal of Gwen Stacy. I mean, actually reread all of her stories when she was alive and current. There was never ANY indication whatsoever that she was ANYTHING like some tramp who'd sleep with an old man, the father of her friend (Harry), and then get rid of her love-children in another country and lie about it to everyone for years. Not an inkling of anything like that for her character. Seriously....if there was something a writer actually had, and angle or tidbit in her personality that they could twist in that direction, something credible...that is one thing...but when someone just writes something with no respect for past writers, characters or us, out of the blue...it is just for shock value.

3.) Cloning...which essentially made the real Spidey we read about for 20 years really just the "Amazing Adventures of A Fake"...everything i read before didn't matter when they did they-it was just adventures of a clone that i had been reading all those years, they wanted me to believe. Then making us read about the new "REAL" Spider-Man "Ben" for two years of our lives (in real time), only to eventually tell us the new real spidey Ben now is really not real and the Spider-Man we loved and grew up with is indeed REAL. Thanks for wasting our time guys...who didn't see THAT coming?? If you write a story, make it so that it can continue on and matter, like they did in the past...or some sort of elseworlds-those kind of stories CAN be quite interesting....but none of this shock value sell a couple extra comics crap...then months or years later it never happened or mattered. If it will stand the test of time-that can help you decide whether or not it is a good story idea possibly?!?? If you're gonna want to pretend it didn't happen a year later...maybe skip that idea...or put into another format!!??....Unless there is some other strong logic for it.

4.) Dumb new costumes. I mean, again, change IS indeed neato and swell if done right....BUT.....why does Spider-Man need armor and tentacles that make him look like the Iron Octopus!?? This isn't Spider-Ham....heck THAT series was handled better than Spider-Man these days. Seriously...costume changes can be "ok" if done right and not routinely. The Black Costume was real cool in fact. It was new and fresh...and led to a great villian-the costume itself and later Venom/Eddie Brock. There was a new idea, and it didn't just "disappear" as a storyline that didn't mean anything and was pointless.

5.) Origin changes......no longer bitten by radioactive spider...Pete REALLY got his powers from a magical totem pole. This was no "tweak" either...but a total jump into a whole new whacky origin. Let me tell you, really, it is much easier for me personally to relate to the magical totem pole origins over a high school accident and a spider-bite.

6.) Power changes. Let's give spider-man pop out claws...i mean, wolverine sells great and he has claws. Let's also give him ant-man powers-so he can talk to spiders AND his hairy back and arms can help determine the wind and weather. Swell!!! And while we're at it, Spidey's eyes can be eaten completely and they'll grow back thanks to these nifty new magical totem pole powers. Finally!...Pete can fight Mike Tyson without fear. Ear gone??...no prob...Totem pole powers-Activate, in form of ear!

7.) Spidey unmasking.....it is not like Peter's character has ever coincided with anything to do with responsibility. Why would he care if he jeapordized his students, the city, his wife, his family, his friends..etc. Those have NEVER been his concerns in the past when thoughts of his identity came up. I mean, afterall, Iron Man WANTED him to take off his clothes...that explains it. And it's not like Peter in his life has ever had any experience with pressure or stress, that would've helped him with the peer pressure of unmasking on live tv. And we know, Spider-Man has always been willing to do anything in his power to please and impress others like Iron Man. It is a good thing no-one like NFL Super-Pro or Silver Surfer asked him to do something bizarre, or you never know what Spidey would have resorted to at a live press conference! At least the unmasking solves the new Iron Octopus Costume problem...now he doesn't even NEED ANY costume...in fact, it is worthless and pointless to even wear. He can just wear a Spidey Head-band and some sweatpants- this will let his face breathe better too. No, the real reason he unmasked is not because Iron Man pressured him, or because it makes sense for the character like some Marvel employees right now will try and tell us, or because us fans DEMAND THESE "KIND" OF CHANGES...(Doh!!) but because ...it will help SELL Civil War and make MONEY.

8.) Mary Jane. While flushing Spider-Man down the toilet, lets also talk about rumors of getting rid of Mary Jane. I mean, it is not like us readers can associate with married life....(Oy!!).... Why is it that many writers in the 70's on up wrote supporting characters so well (and relationships in general of sorts) and now writers are clueless about how to handle mulitple characters or real life issues such as marriage!? We've already shrunk Spidey's once big supporting cast and whittled it down to squat, why do we need to take another supporting character out too?? Spidey used to be great too, in my opinion, because he had that great supporting cast and little side stories with characters always flowing along. Maybe if we weren't just doing 10 issue runs and starting over new #1's of the same comic title yearly, we'd get somewhere with actual character development?? The problem is, comics now put the writer or the artist's satisfaction first. (and also the stock holders and board of directors.) While this is good and all...comics used to be about the fans first and it was clear back then in the "old days": the customers were #1. A smart business trys to remember that.

Sorry so long, but it is just SO dissapointing to have a character with so much history, and a history you've grown up reading....getting trashed by poor stories that eventually don't matter, were pointless, not respectful and didn't "happen". This is Marvel's MAIN character too..why aren't they busy trashing other characters and histories with stories that mean nothing as they've so thoroughly dissed Spidey's universe. Why isn't there a single writer standing up for Spidey and speaking out against the stupidity??

I mean, DC in the past had some really dippy stories...but would they consider giving Superman pop out claws and have him tell the world he is Clark Kent just because Batman made him wear Bat armor and told him to expose himself on TV!?? (haha...sounds funny) Maybe he is not from Krypton either!! (Powers derived from the magical "He-man" totem-pole, naturally!) DC could make money and redefine their mainstay like Marvel is. Kill off Lois too, but not before revealing she too secretly slept with Norman Osborn, during one of those past Marvel DC Crossover Events.

Sadly, the fact is, i used to be left with a sense of wondering what would happen in the NEXT issue of Spider-Man....Now I'm left with a sense of wondering when they'll "officially forget" or "fix" the current storyline.

Spider-Man was always fun and moving, great to pick up. Now, i find more satisfaction in other superhero comics that haven't been manhandled over the years, that have changed, but with purpose and respect. I've been trying to stick with Spidey, because i have so many great memories reading him...and i sincerely really WANT to enjoy my favorite superhero: Spider-man. It stinks to think I may have to give up reading about my favorite superhero just because higher-ups don't care about him, or what makes him who he is, just so that they can SHOCK people and earn a couple new short-term readers.


God Bless you my friend, that was a great post.:spidey:
 
The Lizard said:
Unfortunately, that's where the argument might as well have ended.

Marvel doesn't care about the opinions or nostalgic attachment to continuity of some Gen-X thirtysomething like Mr. Blumberg (or me for that matter). Joe Q and Avi Arad know that most of the younger mainstream readers they are targeting care only about basic stuff like "Spider-Man has a secret identity, and whoa...! He's revealing who he is now! I'll buy that comic!" Most teen Spidey fans don't give a crap about Spidey's past admiration of Captain America, they will just respond to any eye-grabbing stunt-storyline. So that's what Marvel's giving everyone.

Is this unfortunate? I certainly think so. But like it or not, Marvel realizes that comic book sales are once again in a state of uncertain flux due to various other higher-tech time-wasting diversions competing for the attention and money of the mainstream teen and college age demographic.

Brilliantly said. As far as Marvel are concerend there's no substitution for making profits and if it means negelecting the integrity of telling great stories, so be it. Marvel offer no incentives to long time readers other than the promise of a, "major event", which we all know is code for, a bull sh1t saga. What we are getting, more noticably with the majority of spidey comics are, overhyped promises of interesting events which to those who know better provke interst at best and to younger fans is, gospel truth that we'll be getting a clasic arc. The fact is, marvel simply no longer cares about delivering a quality product but instead, over-hyped half-ass story-telling enticing us to part with our money in exchange for crappy shock value.
 

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