Abuse of Power Thread (Cops, Governments, Etc.) - Part 2

[Sithborg]

Nothing like using police resources to stalk hotties.

 

[Lily Adler]

Nothing like using police resources to stalk hotties.

Groooooosss.

 

[Holy Slapper]

You know what another scary part is? There are good people with that sort of education who want to be police officers... And they are usually rejected because they are "too smart", "overqualified", and "likely to get bored by the job".

In Finland the training for the police takes 3 years with the last year usually being on the job training. It's 180 credit points, going from criminal law, de-escalation and other things before they even begin physical training. Also included is a two month course in Swedish, since Finland is a bi-lingual country. It's basically a second degree education.

 

[Iceman]

Martin Gugino: 75-year-old Buffalo protester has a fractured skull and cannot walk - CNN

 

[Iceman]

In Finland the training for the police takes 3 years with the last year usually being on the job training. It's 180 credit points, going from criminal law, de-escalation and other things before they even begin physical training. Also included is a two month course in Swedish, since Finland is a bi-lingual country. It's basically a second degree education.

Sounds good. How are relations like between the police and general public there?

 

[Holy Slapper]

Sounds good. How are relations like between the police and general public there?

The public has a 90% trust on the police department.

 

[Iceman]

The public has a 90% trust on the police department.

Oh that’s great. Thanks for that. That must have some relation to how well trained they are.

 

[Holy Slapper]

Oh that’s great. Thanks for that. That must have some relation to how well trained they are.

Finns trust the government administrations more than Americans. Transparency helps. 96% of Finns have no problem paying taxes either.

 

[Teelie]

Probably because your education includes why taxes are necessary to fund, well everything that keeps civilization going.

 

[Detective Conan]

 

[DKDetective]

In Finland the training for the police takes 3 years with the last year usually being on the job training. It's 180 credit points, going from criminal law, de-escalation and other things before they even begin physical training. Also included is a two month course in Swedish, since Finland is a bi-lingual country. It's basically a second degree education.

The public has a 90% trust on the police department.

While education, training, and pay for the police are very important, I do not think it is the entirety of the solution as some, such as Bernie Sanders, seem to suggest. There are some key differences between Finland and the Nordic countries and the larger, multicultural and multiracial countries like the USA, UK, and Canada, where police brutality and systemic racism in the police are major issues. My understanding is that Finland is largely ethnically and racially homogeneous. That in itself reduces the rates of police brutality against minorities. How is the perception of the Finnish police among the Sami and Roma minorities? Are they the 10% who distrust the police? (I'm genuinely curious because there are many white Canadians who think we are vastly superior to our American neighbours on this issue, but its not entirely true.)

I ask because Canada, while not having the same educational standards for police as say the Nordic countries, is leaps and bounds ahead of the US. Our police typically have a strong, middle-class salary (average is $75,000 CAD, but is typically in the $80,000 to $100,000 CAD in larger urban centres with higher COL). They also typically have at least a 2 year post-secondary college degree (at least those younger officers hired in the last 10 to 20 years). We also have far more stringent use of force rules than the US.

However, despite these clear qualitative improvements over the US, we still have serious racial bias and police brutality issues in our police services. Part of the problem here is that once these reasonably well-trained, well-educated, and well-paid recruits enter the police force, they are assimilated into a culture where hardened, less educated, and racially biased officers indoctrinate the new officers with backwards and bigoted ideas and attitudes.

While it going to take a while to obtain popular support for defund and dismantle initiatives, I am afraid they are necessary to obtain the required culture shift in countries with problematic racial histories. The old blood and culture needs to be purged in order to make large-scale changes and those purges cannot be made while the existing collective agreements and police unions continue to protect bad eggs out of "blue wall" solidarity.

I also wonder if there should be some civilian oversight with respect to hiring. I am aware of specific examples in my own community where people with the minimum qualifications for the job were preferred and hired over than people with honour criminology degrees and community service resumes longer than your arm because the former individuals were more likeable to the veteran police officers doing the hiring because they better fit in with the service's internal culture.

 

[Holy Slapper]

While education, training, and pay for the police are very important, I do not think it is the entirety of the solution as some, such as Bernie Sanders, seem to suggest. There are some key differences between Finland and the Nordic countries and the larger, multicultural and multiracial countries like the USA, UK, and Canada, where police brutality and systemic racism in the police are major issues. My understanding is that Finland is largely ethnically and racially homogeneous. That in itself reduces the rates of police brutality against minorities. How is the perception of the Finnish police among the Sami and Roma minorities? Are they the 10% who distrust the police? (I'm genuinely curious because there are many white Canadians who think we are vastly superior to our American neighbours on this issue, but its not entirely true.)

I ask because Canada, while not having the same educational standards for police as say the Nordic countries, is leaps and bounds ahead of the US. Our police typically have a strong, middle-class salary (average is $75,000 CAD, but is typically in the $80,000 to $100,000 CAD in larger urban centres with higher COL). They also typically have at least a 2 year post-secondary college degree (at least those younger officers hired in the last 10 to 20 years). We also have far more stringent use of force rules than the US.

However, despite these clear qualitative improvements over the US, we still have serious racial bias and police brutality issues in our police services. Part of the problem here is that once these reasonably well-trained, well-educated, and well-paid recruits enter the police force, they are assimilated into a culture where hardened, less educated, and racially biased officers indoctrinate the new officers with backwards and bigoted ideas and attitudes.

While it going to take a while to obtain popular support for defund and dismantle initiatives, I am afraid they are necessary to obtain the required culture shift in countries with problematic racial histories. The old blood and culture needs to be purged in order to make large-scale changes and those purges cannot be made while the existing collective agreements and police unions continue to protect bad eggs out of "blue wall" solidarity.

I also wonder if there should be some civilian oversight with respect to hiring. I am aware of specific examples in my own community where people with the minimum qualifications for the job were preferred and hired over than people with honour criminology degrees and community service resumes longer than your arm because the former individuals were more likeable to veteran police officers and better fit in with the service's internal culture.

It's not known for sure. The police are the most trusted government institution in Finland. They conduct a police barometer every two years. Last one was in 2018. Helsinki is the most ethnically diverse city here. You can't walk in the shopping centers or malls for too long without hearing multiple languages. The ethnic minorities do report that the police do stop and profile them more. Saami have no real issues but the gypsies as we call them tend to have issues. Women are often caught shoplifting with occasionally ridiculous amounts of stuff found in their huge skirts. It tends to differ on the area though. I went to an unemployment agency course about 16 years ago and there was one guy who was thinking of applying for a house construction course. Instead he ended up marrying into one of the wealthier gypsy families in the region and that was that.

 

[squeekness]

Martin Gugino: 75-year-old Buffalo protester has a fractured skull and cannot walk - CNN

Sad.

 

[squeekness]

I find this a little hard to believe.

 

[MilkmanDan]

While education, training, and pay for the police are very important, I do not think it is the entirety of the solution as some, such as Bernie Sanders, seem to suggest. There are some key differences between Finland and the Nordic countries and the larger, multicultural and multiracial countries like the USA, UK, and Canada, where police brutality and systemic racism in the police are major issues. My understanding is that Finland is largely ethnically and racially homogeneous. That in itself reduces the rates of police brutality against minorities. How is the perception of the Finnish police among the Sami and Roma minorities? Are they the 10% who distrust the police? (I'm genuinely curious because there are many white Canadians who think we are vastly superior to our American neighbours on this issue, but its not entirely true.)

I ask because Canada, while not having the same educational standards for police as say the Nordic countries, is leaps and bounds ahead of the US. Our police typically have a strong, middle-class salary (average is $75,000 CAD, but is typically in the $80,000 to $100,000 CAD in larger urban centres with higher COL). They also typically have at least a 2 year post-secondary college degree (at least those younger officers hired in the last 10 to 20 years). We also have far more stringent use of force rules than the US.

However, despite these clear qualitative improvements over the US, we still have serious racial bias and police brutality issues in our police services. Part of the problem here is that once these reasonably well-trained, well-educated, and well-paid recruits enter the police force, they are assimilated into a culture where hardened, less educated, and racially biased officers indoctrinate the new officers with backwards and bigoted ideas and attitudes.

While it going to take a while to obtain popular support for defund and dismantle initiatives, I am afraid they are necessary to obtain the required culture shift in countries with problematic racial histories. The old blood and culture needs to be purged in order to make large-scale changes and those purges cannot be made while the existing collective agreements and police unions continue to protect bad eggs out of "blue wall" solidarity.

I also wonder if there should be some civilian oversight with respect to hiring. I am aware of specific examples in my own community where people with the minimum qualifications for the job were preferred and hired over than people with honour criminology degrees and community service resumes longer than your arm because the former individuals were more likeable to the veteran police officers doing the hiring because they better fit in with the service's internal culture.

You make a fair point about the difference between Nordic countries and North America. Truth is that law enforcement is an occupation that tends to attract a certain type of people. Namely, people who lean towards being conservative, authoritative, xenophobic and who may enjoy exercising power over other people.

So, yes, I know my share of Finns who have had unpleasant experiences with Finnish Police. Some of whom are ethnic minorities, others politically active antifa types and some just plain old drug addicts or small time criminals. But the undeniable difference is that even the most bigoted cops in Finland seems to act with more restraint than what we see from their American colleagues. Maybe it's the training. Maybe it's the relative transparency. Maybe it's the fact that they're doing their job in a country with much less crime and guns. Whatever the reason, even the people I know who think Finnish cops are racist a-holes, aren't really scared of being killed by them.

 

[Detective Conan]

This 26-year-old 'died three times' after police hit her with a blast ball

 

[CaptainWagner]

Apparently Atlanta cops are walking off the job en masse tonight to protest the charges filed against the officer who killed Rayshard Brooks. Literally abandoning the people they are supposed to protect to throw a tantrum because they don't have a license to murder.

If you ask me, the "bad apples" are identifying themselves. I hope this spreads to every city, and each and every one of them gets fired. Seems like a good way to start cleaning shop.

 

[Docker2.0]

Yep! Not all cops are bad but you are just as bad if you stand with the bad ones.

 

[RockSP]

​

 

[Sithborg]

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

JFC...

And somebody out there right now is doing everything in the mind to NOT hold LEO for their actions after reading all that information.

The marches will continue because it seems we can't stop running out of examples where the cops are out of control, up to and including literally getting away with murder.


If you are one of those people reading this right now... Why? What will it take?

Forget politics or race... This is a simple question of good policing and good governance. It is, again, literally a question of LAW and ORDER.


And especially if you are a small government libertarian conservative type the last ****ing thing you should be doing is justifying government abuse and overreach, especially when it results in real death and oppression of citizens.


But some of you don't want to extend that, viewing the victims of police malfeasance or incompetence as fellow citizens with, whether they are angels or not, the same rights as you.

Allowing police to violate others' rights with impunity just means they will have less reasons to respect YOUR rights.


This isn't as hard as some of you reading want it to be for... Reasons.

 

[Lily Adler]

Speaking of Law & Order, I wonder what will happen to all these crime shows.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Speaking of Law & Order, I wonder what will happen to all these crime shows.

Eh... The "guardians" of a society always get mythologized, warranted or not.

(And mythology might be more important than any laws, religions or societal norms when it comes to human actions in society, or that is becoming more apparent to me as the years go by... But I digress...)

Our "warriors" do put life and limb on the line as a regular part of their duties be they military or police or Federal law enforcement.

And that will always have a deep, visceral attraction for the masses.

But... They are also agents of the state. And they have been used by the powers that be to oppress and stifle dissent.

But this is old news. The racial tensions that led to violence in the streets during the mid 1960's to early 1970's didn't culminate in pop culture exiling cops from popular entertainment. I mean, the feelings for police during that time across a wide swath of America then wasn't too different from right now. If anything there were even less constraints on cops then and far less avenues for citizens to get justice should police target them for abuse or worse. The whole of the nation, then as now, saw police use insanely violent tactics against demonstrators fairly regularly on the TV.

And yet... What was one of the biggest hits of 1971?

Dirty Harry.

The breakout TV hit of 1975?

S.W.A.T.

And a reminder... TV shows and movies are the products of supposedly Commie Hollywood.

I think really talented creators will for sure grapple with the way this moment will be reflected in fiction on screens going forward.


Everyone else? Everyone else will do with police on TV and in movies as they've done for, jeezuz... probably a century. Use cops and criminal investigation as an excuse for a lot of "Kiss, kiss. Bang, bang".

 

[Lily Adler]

Eh... The "guardians" of a society always get mythologized, warranted or not.

(And mythology might be more important than any laws, religions or societal norms when it comes to human actions in society, or that is becoming more apparent to me as the years go by... But I digress...)

Our "warriors" do put life and limb on the line as a regular part of their duties be they military or police or Federal law enforcement.

But... They are also agents of the state. And they have been used by the powers that be to oppress and stifle dissent.

But this is old news. The racial tensions that led to violence in the streets during the mid 1960's to early 1970's didn't culminate in pop culture exiling cops from popular entertainment. I mean, the feelings for police during that time across a wide swath of America then wasn't too different from right now. If anything there were even less constraints on cops then and far less avenues for citizens to get justice should police target them for abuse or worse. The whole of the nation, then as now, saw police use insanely violent tactics against demonstrators fairly regularly on the TV.

And yet... What was one of the biggest hits of 1971?

Dirty Harry.

The breakout TV hit of 1975?

S.W.A.T.

And a reminder... TV shows and movies are the products of supposedly Commie Hollywood.

I think really talented creators will for sure grapple with the way this moment will be reflected in fiction on screens going forward.


Everyone else? Everyone else will do with police on TV and in movies as they've done for, jeezuz... probably a century. Use cops and criminal investigation as an excuse for a lot of "Kiss, kiss. Bang, bang".

Have you seen SVU between Season 8-12. There was some stuff that made me sideeye what they were doing. Actually I heard the later seasons have moments that cross the line.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Have you seen SVU between Season 8-12. There was some stuff that made me sideeye what they were doing. Actually I heard the later seasons have moments that cross the line.

Please elaborate.

I haven't watched any L/O in way, way, WAY over twenty years.

I'm interested in what you mean here.