The Dark Knight Rises Adapting Robin

[ForeverKnight]

My personal preference would be Dick Grayson not Robin, comming into the third movie, and it would have to be at the end. I'd like to see his parents get killed in the final battle of the movie, maybe Batman faces off against whoever the bad guy is at the circus or some place they happend to be and during the battle they are killed. Batman sees how upset young Richard Grayson is after the battle and asks Gordon what will happen to him, Gordon would say he's going to an orphanage. The next sceen would switch to Alfred driving Dick up to Wayne manor saying this is your new home. Dick would ask where Bruce is and Alfred could say he's got some late night business to take care of....
My point is he should be introduced at the end of the trilogy so he can be set up to be a character later in the series, have him 15-17 in the third movie and he's 20 by the time he becomes Robin. Otherwise you spend too much time introducing him throughout the movie.

 

[Crooklyn]

How is it butchering the character?

Robin isn't some Oracle wannabe. He goes out with Bats, fights crime alongside him.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Robin isn't some Oracle wannabe. He goes out with Bats, fights crime alongside him.

Amen.

Crook, my man, I know we don't always agree, but... we agree on this one.

 

[kytrigger]

well, I guess I'll put up my crazy plot outline for how I would incorporate Robin:

First, I would have him come in after the third movie because I would use 2 or 3 movies to actually develop the character before he fully became robin.

In the first movie, have Grayson's (age 13-15) parents killed, and have him be the only witness. He is put in a temporary foster home for a while, but sneaks out at night to try and find the killer. Eventually Batman finds him and is impressed that a kid his age could actually find out where the thug that killed his parents was on his own. nonetheless, Batman takes him home and ends up getting the killer by himself. At the end of the movie, Bruce will have decided that he sees too much anger (like he had at his age0 in the boy and decides to adopt him.

In the second movie, even though Bruce has adopted Dick, he has trouble really connecting to the kid. Not only is Bruce not too good with opening up, but the kid is also withdrawn alot. Bruce knows he's been sneaking out at night, and decides one night to talk to him, only as Batman. As Batman, bruce is funally able to connect with Dick, but he can't let him know his secret (much like in Dark Victory). Finally, after several visits, Batman sees that Robin has a gun, and is going to try and "fight crime" like his hero Batman is. he tells him it's not the way to do it...blah blah blah...but he realizes, tha just like him, the kid isn't going to stop no matter what and ends up revealing that he is Bruce Wayne to Dick.

In the third movie, Bruce has accepted to train Dick, and he trains him hard. His training is merciless throughout the movie. Bruce trains him throughout the enitre movie hoping he'll quit, but knowing that if he won't he'll at elast be prepared. Dick never quits, but starts becoming extremely eager to go out on patrols. Bruce never lets him because he knows he isn't ready. Robin helps out in the cave with some things, but overall is extremely frustrated because he feels he's good enough for anythign. During the movie though, Dick gets kidnapped (make it by the Penguin or any villain really) At first he thinks it's because he nkows Bruce's secret, but then he realizes it's just because he is technically the only child to a billionaire. He tries to escape a few times but gets his ass whomped on sveral times and is pretty muchhumbled. Then Batman finally finds him and comes in beating the crap out of everyone. Dick has never actualyl seen Batman "at work" before and is amazed by how precise and strong he is. He realizes that Bruce was right, he wasn't ready to go ut and fight crime yet. When they get back, he trains more...blah blah blah...at the end he is ready for his first mission.

It would abviously be much better and more completx than that, I just had the general idea of him being kidnapped and made the rest up pretty much right here on the spot.

 

[Superman4ever!]

I said this before and I'll say it again introducing robin in one film would be a disaster nothing really would change far from the batman forever storyline.


THE BEST WAY TO DO IT PERIOD.

Introduce a young dick grayson in the next film 13 years old to be exact.
What do we know? Dick grayson lived w/ bruce for a number of years before begining his training or wearing the costume so introducing him as an 18 -20 year old is straight up dumb and has been done before.

The sentiment has always been bruce had a hand in RAISING dick.

How could he raise dick if he's already 18-years old. Introducing him in the next film would be great. Still have the story focus on batman entirely but to just have the characer there at 13 with about the same amount of screen time that little kid in batman begins had. 2-3 minutes and then in the third film show him (the same actor) at age 15 with a little more screen time 10-15 minutes would be genius. THAT WAY when robin is introduced after the third film. its not like they just threw him in there. It's like okay Dick has been living w/ him for a while and we got to see this character grow a little.

have him in robin costume from 17-23 then nightwing and so on..

"We got our thing, but it's just part of the big thing." -- Zenobia

i Agree that robin should be introduced SOONER rather than Later, thats the mistake they made in the last movies, EVEN if hes not Robin yet for GODS Sakes then JUST INTRODUCE HIM AS DICK GRAYSON NOW INTO THE FRANCHISE!! and make him become robin Later!! GEEZ EXECUTIVES ARE IDIOTS!!

 

[El Payaso]

Add Batman a boy jumping around - or even not doing so - and you'll start to ruin the whole experience.

I have read what Sale and Loeb did with Robin and didn't do a thing for me. Enjoyable, yes, but picturing it in a Nolan movie wouldn't work the way I perceive Nolan is trying to make his Batman version work.

 

[Nepenthes]

Didn't Jason only ever wear the traditional pre-crisis style Dick Grayson Robin costume? That's all I've ever seen him in.

He wore this costume for a few minutes. I think there were other variations but I can't be sure, this is the only ish I have on hand.

Neal Adams had designed the new costume when Robin was going to be in Batman Returns. That of course did not pan out, but the suit design was laying around and DC felt that the existing Robin suit was kinda cheesy and needed to be replaced.

http://www.normbreyfogle.com/gallery/batman_designs.asp?page=contrast

Just in case some people havn't seen them, Norm Breyfogle did some designs for Tim Drake as well. There's quite a few pages here some interesting Batman ones too. They're all good ideas I think.....they just look HORRENDOUS the way he draws them.

I'd love to see that. Bruce is a real hard-ass on Robin. And emotionally, physically, and mentally wears him down just so he can become a replacement when Bruce gives up his Batman mantle.

I think if I were to start it, have where Bruce feels sorry the kid lost his parents and he finds the kid relateable, but he doesn't want some kid staying with him, or wants to be an adoptive father to him, or anything. He totally nixes and brushes off the idea, but Alfred steps in and tells him he should do it. So he does and treats the boy like **** and shows he doesn't want any part of him staying at his house but eventually in the end he welcomes the idea and Robin becomes like a son to him.

I'd like that too. Show how Bruce has severe trouble relating to other people on a true personal level apart from his Batman persona. Then he opens up to Robin when they begin working 'professionally' and he becomes a better person. It would portray Robins role in the mythos perfectly.

I'd also have it where some small part of Bruce wants Robin there, but he has difficulty realising it or admitting it so he acts like a jerk to him.

Grayson being a professional acrobat from the time he could walk gives his incredible physicality credibility that just can't be gained from being a street theif or natural talent alone.

Yep. Just showing the circus would set him up quite well when you think about it. You could even throw in a martial arts demonstration into his act. In some ways Robin has spent more time training than Batman! Add some time in the streets after the circus disbands and you've got one tough teenager. That's believable. Done.

I believe Robin does need to be a child to serve his function. I believe he brings one-liners so Batman can remain dark and forboding, instead of having to spout the one-liners like he did in Begins. Batman can be badass anti-hero and Robin can offset him by being a trickster hero. Age plays a lot into that. Furthermore, Robin is ABOUT being subservient to Batman, not being a brother/partner/peer. Also, coming under Bruce's tutelage at an older age makes Robin UNFIT for superheroism without his own 7 year journey. It doesn't make sense for a 18-20 year old to be on rooftops 1-3 yrs later... he's just not physically and mentall ready. I'd put him at 12-13... though I wouldn't have him become Robin for two-three movies, either.

Can't he crack jokes without being a kid? And Batman will always be boss: if Robins 18 then Batman can still have 10+ years and experience on him, plus the money and plans. I don't believe you have to be 'a kid' to take orders. Besides an 18 yr old learning from Batman is still more realistic than a 12 yr old.

The training thing is valid, but again you can establish that Robin's been in circus since he could walk, and he's starting slowly as Batman's partner. Even then it's not like comic Robin trained for years before going out, and again an 18 yr learning quickly is more believable than a 12 yr old learning quickly. Besides Robin CAN have more natural talent than Batman.

Being a young child just throws a whole other difficult dimension onto Robin, and it's slightly unnecessary I think. It seems most fans want the 12yr just out of adherence to the comics.

Robin is not the public face of the Dyanmic Duo.

He's been written that way plenty of times before and many creators have mentioned it. It would also make perfect sense in the movie, Batman and Robin need distinct roles. Robin does work Batman cannot, because he doesn't want to overexpose himself. Batman is scary, Robin is bright and chivalrous.

Point number 2 on Breyfogels design notes, see link above.

 

[Crooklyn]

The training thing is valid, but again you can establish that Robin's been in circus since he could walk, and he's starting slowly as Batman's partner. Even then it's not like comic Robin trained for years before going out, and again an 18 yr learning quickly is more believable than a 12 yr old learning quickly.

Where'd you get this notion, it's the complete opposite.

Ever wonder why some Japanese teach their children martial arts as early as 2 years old, or why a lot of public schools are now teaching some form of Spanish in Kindergarten? Our brain is able to adapt more to newer things at an earlier age. The older you get, the harder it is to learn a new skill. So your point here is pretty invalid.

Being a young child just throws a whole other difficult dimension onto Robin, and it's slightly unnecessary I think. It seems most fans want the 12yr just out of adherence to the comics.

The story has worked, and has been accepted for a ridiculously long amount of time. I don't see how doing it now would change any of that. It's clearly not broke, so why bother "fixing" it.

 

[Nepenthes]

The older you get, the harder it is to learn a new skill. So your point here is pretty invalid.

You're right I didn't consider that.

But nevertheless I was thinking more about mental abilities and emotional maturity. Enduring pain and stress, calculating risk, true commitment, coping with wacky shiiit....that all comes easier when you're older. And your brain doesn't get to full maturity until you're 25, so here's an area where early exposure can only be so helpful.

Also your point on early exposure kinda backs my argument as well. Batman started his training in his early 20's. Dick Grayson's been training everyday since he could walk! So he's learned alot already

The story has worked, and has been accepted for a ridiculously long amount of time. I don't see how doing it now would change any of that. It's clearly not broke, so why bother "fixing" it.

The story has worked in comics. Which were largely written for kids when they featured younger Robins (wasn't Drake 15 when he first appeared?).

Admit it, you know very well that certain things won't fly in A) a movie medium that is B) written for modern, mature audiences in a C) serious or semi 'realistic' approach.

Just one of those points on its own should be enough to disqualify a boy Robin. Combined, there's no way a 12yr old crimefighter is gonna work in any movie that continues even half of Nolans approach.

Consider; if Robin is window for the audience, then in film the audience are not all young boys. If anything, the Robin in the Schumacher films should have been a child because that's who those movies were intended for.

 

[Crooklyn]

You're right I didn't consider that.

But nevertheless I was thinking more about mental abilities and emotional maturity. Enduring pain and stress, calculating risk, true commitment, coping with wacky shiiit....that all comes easier when you're older. And your brain doesn't get to full maturity until you're 25, so here's an area where early exposure can only be so helpful.

On the contrary, I'd say that can go either way. Being exposed to such things at an early age can at times make you colder as you grow. As we all know with justice, you can't be emotionally involved. So in that case, it's actually a benefit.

Familiar with Cassandra Cain?

Also your point on early exposure kinda backs my argument as well. Batman started his training in his early 20's. Dick Grayson's been training everyday since he could walk! So he's learned alot already

Which also furthers my point in that a kid going out fighting crime wouldn't be so ridiculous seeing as how he's unique in his early training.

The story has worked in comics. Which were largely written for kids when they featured younger Robins (wasn't Drake 15 when he first appeared?).

The story which has since has evolved and been reworked to feature more adult themes, as with most origins.

Admit it, you know very well that certain things won't fly in A) a movie medium that is B) written for modern, mature audiences in a C) serious or semi 'realistic' approach.

Just going for Point C alone should take care of the other 2.

Just one of those points on its own should be enough to disqualify a boy Robin. Combined, there's no way a 12yr old crimefighter is gonna work in any movie that continues even half of Nolans approach.

Praytell, what IS Nolan's approach? From what I've gathered, his technique is to gather in the source material, rework it for plausibility, and translate accordingly to film.

Now I'll assume your main argument is Robin being so young. Well, a couple points. You said it yourself, the boy is trained, and has immense skill. This alone separates him from all the youth. Then there's the fact that Bruce sees a lot of potential in this kid. And most importantly, the murder of Grayson's parents strikes a chord with Bruce (for obvious reasons). It's as if he's looking at a younger version of himself, a parent-less child who is now alone.

And THAT is the driving force for which imo takes this whole idea from ludicrous to conceivable. If it was ANY other kid, in ANY other situation, at ANY given time, then yes...I agree, the idea is pretty much stupid. But it's not the case. It's become almost a responsibility for Bruce to take this kid in and utilize his strengths for what's right. It'd almost seem unjust not to do so.

 

[GL1]

Yep. Just showing the circus would set him up quite well when you think about it. You could even throw in a martial arts demonstration into his act. In some ways Robin has spent more time training than Batman! Add some time in the streets after the circus disbands and you've got one tough teenager. That's believable. Done.

I don't think being a street kid is really necessary, and it dilutes and complicates the story. Seeing your parents die and getting the crap beat out of you by Batman for 3-5 years is PLENTY toughness.

Can't he crack jokes without being a kid? And Batman will always be boss: if Robins 18 then Batman can still have 10+ years and experience on him, plus the money and plans. I don't believe you have to be 'a kid' to take orders. Besides an 18 yr old learning from Batman is still more realistic than a 12 yr old.

All of that would be BETTER if he were a kid though.

The training thing is valid, but again you can establish that Robin's been in circus since he could walk, and he's starting slowly as Batman's partner. Even then it's not like comic Robin trained for years before going out, and again an 18 yr learning quickly is more believable than a 12 yr old learning quickly. Besides Robin CAN have more natural talent than Batman.

Nothing explains a circus acrobat doing what Batman does. It just can't happen. Natrual talent, martial arts demonstrations and 'learning quickly' won't account for it. It's just too much.

Being a young child just throws a whole other difficult dimension onto Robin, and it's slightly unnecessary I think. It seems most fans want the 12yr just out of adherence to the comics.

I'm not a mind reader, I don't know. I DO know that the relationship between a man and a child-like adolescent (13) is vastly different from the relationship between a man and an adult-like adolescent (18). As a child, Robin can be the scapegoat for all the innocense, allowing Batman to be darker than ever by way of contrast. As an adult, Robin is forced to be a mini-Batman, or Batman-lite, which is wack, as far as movies are concerned. Robin is a great supporting character, but if you try to force Robin to be Nightwing out of the gate, you end up with a scene stealer.

As for a more chivalrous Batman, I point you kindly towards Batman Forever and Batman and Robin, where man-Robin was suddenly able to do all that Batman did and it was laughable. If it's a Nightwing solo movie, that's one thing, but Robin should be ROBIN...

Though, obviously, as far as Batman Begins goes, it would be better and easier if Robin was just Dick Grayson.

 

[GL1]

I agree to a point, but I don't see Dick becoming Robin until he's lived with Batman for about three years. Hence, being brought in at 12-13 and suiting up at 15-16. Even then, I don't see him swooping down and throwing punches, not in the Nolanverse...

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

The third one is the best Robin design.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

http://www.normbreyfogle.com/gallery/batman_designs.asp?page=contrast

Just in case some people havn't seen them, Norm Breyfogle did some designs for Tim Drake as well. There's quite a few pages here some interesting Batman ones too. They're all good ideas I think.....they just look HORRENDOUS the way he draws them.

I actually go opposite from you. I think Breyfogle is a great artist, but apparently a bad designer of Robin suits. LOL. I don't like any of these suits, but I like his art.

In the end, Adams' design was definitely the best...

 

[darknight7]

I think they should do a spin-off for Robin, if they decide to do Robin. Leave him out of the Batman franchise. If he is REALLY THAT WORTH OF A CHARACTER, than base his own movie. And expand it into Nightwing or something. I'de go see a Robin movie, Because I would know that Batman would be in it. HAHAHA

--dk7

 

[Morgoth]

Robin should be in the new movies. Maybe when Nolan leaves and someone with more imagination steps in.

He didn't even get a chance in the old films, they changed him into a jerk in the two crap films he was in, it would be nice to see the real Dick/Robin come to life. They didn't even give the Robin costume a chance, by the next one he was in a Nightwing type rip off. I fyou're going to change it and make it all black, at least keep the yellow "R" on the chest, it's no big deal, that little logo won't give him away, same as the yellow oval, they look cool, let them be.

Show Dick's character evolve, and then by the time his third movie comes around he could become Nightwing, that would be cool.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I think they should do a spin-off for Robin, if they decide to do Robin. Leave him out of the Batman franchise. If he is REALLY THAT WORTH OF A CHARACTER, than base his own movie. And expand it into Nightwing or something. I'de go see a Robin movie, Because I would know that Batman would be in it. HAHAHA

--dk7

The thing is... you can't do a Robin movie without Batman. And if Batman's in it, it's not going to be called Robin, it's going to be called Batman.

So... what was your point again?

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Robin should be in the new movies. Maybe when Nolan leaves and someone with more imagination steps in.

I agree that Robin probably ought to show up eventually, but there's no need to be a jerk about it. Nolan's got plenty of imagination. He just doesn't want to do Robin. I respect that.

He didn't even get a chance in the old films, they changed him into a jerk in the two crap films he was in, it would be nice to see the real Dick/Robin come to life. They didn't even give the Robin costume a chance, by the next one he was in a Nightwing type rip off.

I agree with all of that.

I fyou're going to change it and make it all black, at least keep the yellow "R" on the chest, it's no big deal, that little logo won't give him away, same as the yellow oval, they look cool, let them be.

If the suit is all black, he can't be Robin. Robins have red chests. So I disagree with this part to the degree that, the suit can't be all black. And the original suit is iconic; while I have no desire to see the little Robin Hood suit put onscreen, whatever he wears should pay homage to the original design (as the Neal Adams design that Tim Drake originally wore, pays homage to it).

Show Dick's character evolve, and then by the time his third movie comes around he could become Nightwing, that would be cool.

Yep.

 

[darknight7]

The thing is... you can't do a Robin movie without Batman. And if Batman's in it, it's not going to be called Robin, it's going to be called Batman.

So... what was your point again?

I don't really know, I just don't want to see Robin in a Batman movie, but I wouldn't mind a Robin movie. lol.

I would love to see a nice SOLID SERIOUS DARK "BATMAN" TRILOGY, using Bale.

And than after that...maybe have another movie, or another 3 movies.

Batman: Mentor I
Batman: Mentor II
Batman: Mentor III

Like...All Star type idea...I dunno really...

--dk7,

 

[Keyser Sushi]

I don't really know, I just don't want to see Robin in a Batman movie, but I wouldn't mind a Robin movie. lol.

I would love to see a nice SOLID SERIOUS DARK "BATMAN" TRILOGY, using Bale.

And than after that...maybe have another movie, or another 3 movies.

Batman: Mentor I
Batman: Mentor II
Batman: Mentor III

Like...All Star type idea...I dunno really...

--dk7,

Well, yeah, that's what I want, too. I want this Nolan - Bale trilogy to be Robin-free. I want these three badass movies, and then, when Batman's character develops to the point that it makes sense to give him an apprentice, then give him an apprentice. At which point the story would really be about Dick Grayson, and Bruce growing as a human being through helping Grayson become a man. Then Grayson leaves and Batman is on his own again. The Robin thing is only worth telling if it's a storyline with a beginning and an end.

 

[Nepenthes]

I think they should do a spin-off for Robin, if they decide to do Robin. Leave him out of the Batman franchise. If he is REALLY THAT WORTH OF A CHARACTER, than base his own movie. And expand it into Nightwing or something. I'de go see a Robin movie, Because I would know that Batman would be in it. HAHAHA

--dk7

that's exactly what the next trilogy should be.

And you CAN have Batman in a Robin movie. The story is just centered on robin and not the other way around. After the Nolan trilogy audiences will be familiar enough with Batman for that to happen.

 

[GL1]

Well, there are tons of supporting characters in Batman Begins that shouldn't have their own movie but are still great additions to the cast. Gordon. Fox. Alfred.

A Robin movie, with Batman as a harsh taskmaster (see Mask of Zorro) would obviously be a good way to go. When you have a highly skilled there clearly a lot of ways to go, but I don't think it can be even associated with Begins without having a degree of realism injected into it, and that means no 14 year olds beating up gangs of armed men.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

but I don't think it can be even associated with Begins without having a degree of realism injected into it, and that means no 14 year olds beating up gangs of armed men.

That's ridiculous. One of the reasons children are taught karate is so that they can defend themselves from adults who try to do harm to them. One of the most fundamental principles of most forms of karate is that technique can always compensate for size.

Sure, Robin would not be as strong as Batman, but he can certainly take care of himself.

 

[Nepenthes]

I don't think it can be even associated with Begins without having a degree of realism injected into it, and that means no 14 year olds beating up gangs of armed men.

That's why you make him 18-20, and it's still Robin in every in way that matters.

 

[GL1]

Sushi - And taking on 1-3, (maybe even ten-12 for a Robin) melee armed guys is fine and dandy. But I think it's pushing it when kevlar armed Batman takes out a room full of guys WITH GUNS in a big open area without being easily seen. For Robin to do it, to me, would be a bit too much.

Nepenthes - Not to me. To me Robin is a kid, when he becomes an adult, he's Nightwing, and I think of those as totally different characters with totally different things to bring to the series. An Adult Robin can't play the creepy kid angle popular in horror films, an Adult Robin can't bring any innosence to a given situation, and Adult Robin cannot learn as rapidly as a child Robin and make becoming Robin believable if he's not taking a seven year journey. To me, when Robin becomes an adult, he becomes redundant, and that's why he has to move out on his own.