The Dark Knight Rises Adapting Robin

[Mr. Socko]

Robin should be bi-sexual

 

[El Payaso]

Robin is.

He should stop being it.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

I´m all for Robin in the Batman movies, and if one really thinks about it, they will be all for it too.

Of course that is a bit too early to introduce him, let the trilogy be about the Dark Knight and his demons, but if it continues (which i´m sure it will not), get Robin in there.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

That´s a great job Keyser
The dialogue is great....

Saying that, there is much i don´t like
But, for now, i´m just going to address one bit....
The first time Grayson meets Batman, he should be scared beyond his senses...just like everyone else.
Batman is an urban legend, a creature of nightmares, many Gothamites don´t even believe he exists, others think he is some kind of creature, like the city´s soul given physical form to clean it out, and others don´t even know what to think of it....

 

[Keyser Sushi]

That´s a great job Keyser
The dialogue is great....

Thanks, on both counts.

Saying that, there is much i don´t like
But, for now, i´m just going to address one bit....
The first time Grayson meets Batman, he should be scared beyond his senses...just like everyone else.
Batman is an urban legend, a creature of nightmares, many Gothamites don´t even believe he exists, others think he is some kind of creature, like the city´s soul given physical form to clean it out, and others don´t even know what to think of it....

Kids don't fear Batman. Criminals do. That's the way I've always seen it handled in the comics, anyway, and it's the way I understand the character.

More importantly than that, though, I wrote that to be in continuity with BB. And BB shows that kids do not fear Batman. They look up to him as a hero, a symbol of hope.

Still, if I were to revise it I might make their first meeting a bit more dramatic.

Just bear in mind, I wrote all of that off-the-cuff between work and meals, with very little revision.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Kids don't fear Batman. Criminals do. That's the way I've always seen it handled in the comics, anyway, and it's the way I understand the character.

More importantly than that, though, I wrote that to be in continuity with BB. And BB shows that kids do not fear Batman. They look up to him as a hero, a symbol of hope.

And you did great, because in continuity with BB it works fine.
But that´s it, that´s one of the things i see as flawed in BB.
Everyone is scared of Batman, because people fear what they don´t know.
But criminals are the ones he goes up against, so, they are the ones that have a reason to fear them.

In BB, Batman is "The Punisher in a cape and cowl".

 

[Keyser Sushi]

And you did great, because in continuity with BB it works fine.

Cool.

But that´s it, that´s one of the things i see as flawed in BB.
Everyone is scared of Batman, because people fear what they don´t know.
But criminals are the ones he goes up against, so, they are the ones that have a reason to fear them.

Some of my favorite Batman stories are the ones that show how different people perceive him. For example "You Shoulda Seen Him," which had a couple off-duty cops talking about their experiences seeing the Batman in action that night. One guy saw him be cold and emotionless... one guy saw him show extraordinary tenderness toward a child on the street. One guy saw him angrily threaten to extensively torture an armed robber. LOL.

They all came away with completely different images of the Batman. "He's inhuman." "He's a really caring, compassionate guy." "He's a BEAST!!!"

The reactions to the character, among fandom, reflect that. Everybody has their favorite face of the Batman. And that, to me, is what gives the character his longevity among the fans.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Some of my favorite Batman stories are the ones that show how different people perceive him. For example "You Shoulda Seen Him," which had a couple off-duty cops talking about their experiences seeing the Batman in action that night. One guy saw him be cold and emotionless... one guy saw him show extraordinary tenderness toward a child on the street. One guy saw him angrily threaten to extensively torture an armed robber. LOL.

They all came away with completely different images of the Batman. "He's inhuman." "He's a really caring, compassionate guy." "He's a BEAST!!!"

The reactions to the character, among fandom, reflect that. Everybody has their favorite face of the Batman. And that, to me, is what gives the character his longevity among the fans.

That´s exactly what i´m talking about when i said, in the first post: "Batman is an urban legend, a creature of nightmares, many Gothamites don´t even believe he exists, others think he is some kind of creature, like the city´s soul given physical form to clean it out, and others don´t even know what to think of it.... "

One story i really like (don´t remember the title or the issue) is one where they talk about Batman in a talk show.
They go to the point of having people saying that he is a android (wink to Terminator), others that he is an alien, a demon, that he doesn´t exist, that he is a decoy made by the GCPD to scare criminals, he is the soul of the city brought to life....
But the bottom line is, no one knows who or what he is, and that is, IMO, one of the greatest things about Batman and one that was completly erased in the movie.

The famous line goes like this:
"Criminals are a superstitious cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts. I must be a creature of the night, black, terrible.....i shall become a bat"
See how Wayne used the word Terror, not fear, to describe what he must do, to be a creature of the night, black, terrible...
By other words, and more updated ones, his goal was to convince criminals that he was some kind of monster, a bat-human hybrid, something that would make criminals ask themselfs, what is he? Does he exists? Is he human?
Now, because Batman doesn´t go around giving interviews and appearing on newspapers, everyone thinks the same as the criminals (what is he?) which means that, deep inside, anyone that meets him, would eventually be terrified.
Even knowing that he only go after criminals.

I remember buying a TPB a long time ago, the ones that first introduces KGBeast, and there was an introduction written by Mark Hammil (i think it was him).
There was a bit that i agree 100% and it went something like this:

- You are a cop in Gotham City. You are alone in an dark alley and, on a rooftop, is Batman. Two things will cross your mind, one, that you are protected, he will help you if you need him to. Second, you are scared shi***ss, because, no matter that you know he will save you, you don´t know what the f**k he is.

That´s Batman for everyone else

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Batman is an urban legend, a creature of nightmares

The famous line goes like this:
"Criminals are a superstitious cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts. I must be a creature of the night, black, terrible.....i shall become a bat"
See how Wayne used the word Terror, not fear, to describe what he must do, to be a creature of the night, black, terrible...

that was completly erased in the movie.

"But if you make yourself more than just a man... if you devote yourself to an ideal... and if they can't stop you... then you become something else entirely."

"Which is?"

"Legend, Mr. Wayne."

-----------------------

"I can't do that as Bruce Wayne. As a man I can be ignored, I can be destroyed; but as a symbol, I could be incorruptible... everlasting."

"What sort of symbol, sir?"

"Something elemental...something terrifying."

-------------------------

That's funny, it looks like those concepts were entirely included in the movie.

Now, because Batman doesn´t go around giving interviews and appearing on newspapers, everyone thinks the same as the criminals (what is he?) which means that, deep inside, anyone that meets him, would eventually be terrified.
Even knowing that he only go after criminals.

I disagree here. The famous line you stated (which is familiar to me) starts off with this line: criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot."

The innocent need not fear him. Only the guilty fear, because it is their conscience and their inherent cowardice that takes this frightening image of Batman, and transforms him into something more.

Or, put another way, "I seek... the means to fight injustice. To turn fear against those who prey on the fearful."

How about Thomas Wayne? "All creatures feel fear."

"Even the scary ones?"

"Especially the scary ones."

That is the same as, "criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot."

The exact same.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

You can take it as you want, but, IMO, no, they didn´t got it, because is not enough to talk about them, you have to really make that happen.
And when you have a movie where he, from the get go, allies himself with Gordon (which doesn´t make any sense for Gordon to accept his help and not throw his ass into jail), where it ends with everyone knowing that Batman saved the day (the all urban legend was gone right there), where he interrogates Flask like he was Frank Castle in a Batman costume (he didn´t came out as a creature of the night, but rather a pissed off guy in a bat costume).
The only bits where i actually saw Batman, was the one in Arkham with Crane (where Crane saw Batman as a demon), and the one where people saw him as a giant bat, in both scenes, the intervinients were drugged, so it doesn´t count.

The innocent need not fear him. Only the guilty fear, because it is their conscience and their inherent cowardice that takes this frightening image of Batman, and transforms him into something more.

The only way for the innocent to not fear him, would be for them to know that Batman was a man and not a creature; and, with that notion, only really dumb criminals would fall for that.
And that is something that Batman cannot afford to, because one of his weapons is illusion, to make people wonder what he is.
And by people i mean, criminals are people too.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

You can take it as you want, but, IMO, no, they didn´t got it, because is not enough to talk about them, you have to really make that happen.

The thugs at the docks were terrified. Falcone was terrified. Flass was terrified. Crane was terrified. The kid mentioned that his friends wouldn't believe he'd actually met him... they clearly didn't believe in him. DA Finch didn't believe he existed at first.

And when you have a movie where he, from the get go, allies himself with Gordon (which doesn´t make any sense for Gordon to accept his help and not throw his ass into jail),

I think it was obvious that Gordon knows Batman is trying to help, and Gordon knows how bad Gotham is, and he believes the city needs Batman, even though Gordon obviously has his misgivings about Batman.

where it ends with everyone knowing that Batman saved the day (the all urban legend was gone right there), where he interrogates Flask like he was Frank Castle in a Batman costume (he didn´t came out as a creature of the night, but rather a pissed off guy in a bat costume).

Whatever.

The only bits where i actually saw Batman, was the one in Arkham with Crane (where Crane saw Batman as a demon), and the one where people saw him as a giant bat, in both scenes, the intervinients were drugged, so it doesn´t count.

If those were the only scenes where you saw Batman, then you either slept through the rest of the movie, or, you have a narrow view of what Batman is. As I said earlier, I believe that most people have their own particular idea of who Batman is. Just as he is an urban legend in the stories, he is an urban legend of sorts among fans; some people think he's this scary demonic creature, some people see him as a compassionate hero figure, and on and on and on. You have your view, but it is not all-encompassing. I have read a LOT of Batman stories and I know there are many sides to the character. What you want to see is only one side. I saw the Batman who has been my hero for 30 years embodied nearly flawlessly by Christian Bale. I am more than satisfied.

The only way for the innocent to not fear him, would be for them to know that Batman was a man and not a creature; and, with that notion, only really dumb criminals would fall for that.

Wrong. If there is a monster that goes around killing butt-rapists and only butt-rapists, I have nothing to fear from that monster. But a butt-rapist would not want to meet it.

Likewise, since Batman is meant to be viewed as this avenging angel of the night, a monster who comes to terrorize criminals, then the innocent have nothing to fear from him, as he is obviously on their side.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

Maybe your right, maybe i´m overreacting (i tend to do that sometimes), but, IMO, there were several flaws in BB, which, even being an amazing movie, is not the perfect Batman movie everyone seems to think so.

And it´s not so black and white, you can´t think that people would not be apprehensive about Batman, just because he goes after criminals.
Bottom line is, they don´t know what he is.
Is like having a lion as a pet.
You love the lion, you grew up with him, but, deep inside, you know that the lion is a wild animal, so you show respect for it, a lion is not a dog.
The same goes to Batman, no matter how you know he will not harm you, you don´t what he is, you will always get a chill down your spine when you see him.
With time, some people would start to change their mind and be more at ease, but not at the begining, not in the first several months.

Put yourself in the shoes of the ones that don´t belive that he exist, and, all of sudden you come face to face with him, and deep inside you know that´s the real thing.
You would have a mix of fear and respect, you would be static...Batman is not Superman.

 

[Nepenthes]

Your story is awesome Keyser. You should post more like that on other characters!

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Your story is awesome Keyser. You should post more like that on other characters!

Thanks, though calling it a story is a bit generous. It's a few random, loosely-connected scenes.

Normally I don't waste my time on fanfic, but I've talked so long about being able to write a Robin origin that would work, that I finally had to put my money where my mouth was, so to speak.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Maybe your right, maybe i´m overreacting (i tend to do that sometimes), but, IMO, there were several flaws in BB, which, even being an amazing movie, is not the perfect Batman movie everyone seems to think so.

Most folks don't think Begins is perfect. But for many of us, it is our favorite Batman movie to date. I know that applies to me.

And it´s not so black and white, you can´t think that people would not be apprehensive about Batman, just because he goes after criminals.
Bottom line is, they don´t know what he is.

Most people are pretty sure he's a guy in a suit. Most people don't believe in ghosts and goblins. But criminals are superstitious, according to Bob Kane.

Is like having a lion as a pet.
You love the lion, you grew up with him, but, deep inside, you know that the lion is a wild animal, so you show respect for it, a lion is not a dog.
The same goes to Batman, no matter how you know he will not harm you, you don´t what he is, you will always get a chill down your spine when you see him.
With time, some people would start to change their mind and be more at ease, but not at the begining, not in the first several months.

On the other hand, if you live in a place that is full of hyenas and they lick their chops every time they see you, having a pet lion has its advantages.

 

[Katsuro]

Thanks, though calling it a story is a bit generous. It's a few random, loosely-connected scenes.

Normally I don't waste my time on fanfic, but I've talked so long about being able to write a Robin origin that would work, that I finally had to put my money where my mouth was, so to speak.

And you did a damn good job.

My only issue, and i'm really conflicted on this, is the Robin Hood inspiration. See, I think Robin Hood is a much better symbol than a freakin' bird, so making him name himself after that is great, but the problem is that the only time Robin has ever had a good costume, was when they took away the Robin Hood elements. I'm not a big fan of any costume other than the current Tim Drake suit, the one without any green. I also like the way his cape is scalloped like birds' feathers.

Not really sure how i'd solve that dilemma, honestly.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

And you did a damn good job.

Thanks.

My only issue, and i'm really conflicted on this, is the Robin Hood inspiration. See, I think Robin Hood is a much better symbol than a freakin' bird, so making him name himself after that is great, but the problem is that the only time Robin has ever had a good costume, was when they took away the Robin Hood elements. I'm not a big fan of any costume other than the current Tim Drake suit, the one without any green. I also like the way his cape is scalloped like birds' feathers.

Not really sure how i'd solve that dilemma, honestly.

Well, you saw how I solved it... that drawing I posted a little ways back is the image I had in my head when I wrote that stuff. Basically a modification of the original Tim Drake suit. To me there's no Robin Hood elements in it to speak of, it's more of a ninja suit.

I do think the staff and the cape could be Robin-hoodish, but those are straight out of Tim Drake as well. Also, I muted the colors, apart from the red. And... I have recently begun to think, if you look at my drawing... that green turtle neck collar might actually be able to pull up like a balaclava over his head, but he doesn't wear it much. Which would be interesting, IMO...

 

[Nepenthes]

My only issue, and i'm really conflicted on this, is the Robin Hood inspiration. See, I think Robin Hood is a much better symbol than a freakin' bird, so making him name himself after that is great, but the problem is that the only time Robin has ever had a good costume, was when they took away the Robin Hood elements. I'm not a big fan of any costume other than the current Tim Drake suit, the one without any green. I also like the way his cape is scalloped like birds' feathers.

Ways to retain 'Robin Hood'
- an armoured tunic that is multi-layered around the neck and arm openings, with many layers of materials and colours showing. maybe with amour plates over the shoulders
- different coloured gloves from the rest of his suit, so he looks like an archer
- high-tech armour that looks like chainmail, in the joint section or underside of his arms
- Knee high boots with kneepads, Or, little booty's with 'stockings' from the knee down, thin material that would also look very ninja like.
- prominent laces or buckles down the front of his tunic, even if they're only there for show
- a bow staff,
- medievil typefont for the 'R'

 

[trustyside-kick]

Age: It depends on which Robin they would go with. If they were to mix up some of the Robin personalities I would say to have a mix of Dick and Jason; parents die when he is young (creating the huge similarity) but then he acts like Jason (which shows that unless Bats does something to help him, he will further go down a different path than him). So, if they were to do a Dick-Jason Robin I say young teens is when his parents die.

Costume-wise: Design reflecting the current Tim Drake suit since it's the best Robin suit to ever be designed. I don't see the problem with a cape to be honest. When it comes to the mask...I'm not sure. While the typical mask Robin has had doesn't bother me I would just have to see the other options for a mask with the new Tim Drake suit.

Villain: While I agree no random villain would do...But I know what villains would not do if it supposed to be important to the intro of Robin or be theme-based: Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Clayface, Catwoman, Riddler. I'll have to think about this more.

Casting: I'm not sure who would be casted. This is the hardest decision out of all the lil tabs to answer in this thread. This requires much more time.

 

[Katsuro]

Costume-wise: Design reflecting the current Tim Drake suit since it's the best Robin suit to ever be designed. I don't see the problem with a cape to be honest. When it comes to the mask...I'm not sure. While the typical mask Robin has had doesn't bother me I would just have to see the other options for a mask with the new Tim Drake suit.

In regards to the mask, I actually like Keyser Sushi's idea up above. He'll have goggles that he'll always wear, and either a balaclava or a hood that he puts up every now an then. Both would hide his identity better, but he could put the hood down when he enters combat, since he'd be moving far too fast to be seen anyways.

 

[trustyside-kick]

Or maybe he can have a suit or just mask similar to Red Robin from Kingdom Come? Like, it would be based from that for reference or something.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Or maybe he can have a suit or just mask similar to Red Robin from Kingdom Come? Like, it would be based from that for reference or something.

That suit sucks ass.

 

[trustyside-kick]

I liked the suit.

 

[Batjosh]

My outlook on Robin:

1) He needs to be a kid. Something resembling the age Dick was in Dark Victory.

2) He needs to not be the daredevil always at Batman's side. He needs to play small, yet integral roles that will give him some action time onscreen but he doesn't need to be saving the day or anything for the sake of realism.

3) Dark colors. Red and black. And by red I mean something like the red in the pic below:

4) Keep the "R" yellow.

5) Something resembling a domino mask even if it isn't technically a domino mask. It's part of his character.

 

[Nepenthes]

I wish I was familiar with video games I know there'd be alot of awesome designs for Robin out there. I've seen good ones before but I really don't know what I'm looking at in games these days

there's a metalgear solid type one with a guy who has glowing green goggles? what's that?