After Nolan's BATMAN trilogy... - Part 1

[kewlmatto]

I agree with pretty much all of your points.

I really hope Killer Croc is nothing but a subvillain. He just isn't all that interesting. If you want to go down the animal-hybrid route, Man-Bat is far better. But even then, he's too Lizard-y for film.

Penguin, Freeze and Riddler all need and deserve attention. They should be priorities.

After that, Black Mask, Harley Quinn, Mad Hatter and maybe Hush (but yes, he needs a bit more time in the oven). I can even see Professor Pyg down the line.

 

[shauner111]

Exactly my feelings on Croc and Man-Bat. Croc needs to be a small character or don't include him at all, while Man-Bats story/transformation is far too similar to the Lizard. Im not sure the bulk of the fanbase or general audience would care if you said "Man-Bat is the main villain or 2nd villain". I can hear the laughter!

Penguin, Freeze, Riddler are the BIG 3 that are left. Priority? Exactly.

Black Mask is a no brainer. Harley Quinn is a no brainer whenever they bring back Joker. Mad Hatter could be a great supporting villain if you write him as an extremely creepy pedophile type, child kidnapper. It could be really disturbing. I just dont know if WB would go that route.

Clayface, with a dramatic change, could be something fresh. We all think Sandman sometimes or The Animated Series, but he could use a facelift (no pun intended). Someone with a deranged face, maybe a drug addict? Or something really gritty. Can still be experimented on by Strange.

How about Poison Ivy. Too soon?

 

[kewlmatto]

Mad Hatter could be a great supporting villain if you write him as an extremely creepy pedophile type, child kidnapper. It could be really disturbing. I just dont know if WB would go that route.

I think if you implied the pedophilia but didn't actually go into it, he could still be very creepy. I liked Arkham City's design and take on him. I think it would require a bit more of a fantasy-based Batman to work well, but Mad Hatter could be great. But yep, he would need another villain in the mix.

Clayface, with a dramatic change, could be something fresh. We all think Sandman sometimes or The Animated Series, but he could use a facelift (no pun intended). Someone with a deranged face, maybe a drug addict? Or something really gritty. Can still be experimented on by Strange.

How about Poison Ivy. Too soon?

I think Clayface is a bit of a stretch even for a more fantasy-based Batman, unless they toned down his powers a little like you said. He could work, but not as a complete Mystique-like shapeshifter as he is often portrayed. I would keep the actor origin though, as that's fairly interesting thematically.

I think Poison Ivy is another priority, right after Freeze, Penguin and Riddler. Forgot to mention her. She needs to be done correctly, as a fierce ecoterrorist. They need to avoid skewing her towards cheesecake, though.

And I still think Huntress could be a great villain. Have her as a dark shadow of Batman. At the end she could redeem herself, but she would basically work as a villain for the entire film. I think it could be interesting in a Batman movie to show what the Dark Knight can 'inspire' in people.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

To be honest, Man-Bat is one of the biggest things of the Bronze Age Batman so I simply hate the idea to turn him into some henchman. Of course, making him the main villain would mostly end up as something "Bats Are The Most Successful Species and I'll turn humanity into human-bat hybrids so they can survive".

 

[shauner111]

I think Clayface is a bit of a stretch even for a more fantasy-based Batman, unless they toned down his powers a little like you said. He could work, but not as a complete Mystique-like shapeshifter as he is often portrayed. I would keep the actor origin though, as that's fairly interesting thematically.

Im sure/hope that the next Batman will be more fantasy-based anyhow so it could work. The actor origin would be pretty cool.

I think Poison Ivy is another priority, right after Freeze, Penguin and Riddler. Forgot to mention her. She needs to be done correctly, as a fierce ecoterrorist. They need to avoid skewing her towards cheesecake, though.

LOL. Im curious about who would share the villain spot with her. You know WB won't let an entire Batman film ride on just Pamela Isley as the rogue.

And I still think Huntress could be a great villain. Have her as a dark shadow of Batman. At the end she could redeem herself, but she would basically work as a villain for the entire film. I think it could be interesting in a Batman movie to show what the Dark Knight can 'inspire' in people.

Never thought about Huntress.

 

[kewlmatto]

Im sure/hope that the next Batman will be more fantasy-based anyhow so it could work. The actor origin would be pretty cool.

You could then delve into the idea of Bruce Wayne being a 'performance' as well.

LOL. Im curious about who would share the villain spot with her. You know WB won't let an entire Batman film ride on just Pamela Isley as the rogue.

Unfortunately that's true. She could carry a whole film, but that would never happen. I think she needs to be paired with a more grounded 'crime-boss' style villain - probably Penguin or Black Mask. I don't see her working with them though.

It's a shame Ra's was used so recently because she'd be perfect with him.

 

[Human Torch]

I'd love to see Penguin,Clayface,Freeze and Ivy used in the next reboot series.

 

[shauner111]

I was thinking of Ra's as well but i changed my mind because Talia was into the clean energy thing. I actually think that by the time we get Ivy, a different from Nolan version of Scarecrow could work well with her. That would be my pick. Black Mask would work as well.

 

[The Guard]

Penguin's not on that list?

Shame on SHH.

The best options for quality all around villains in a reboot (assuming they don't want to repeat villains) are Hugo Strange, The Penguin, The Riddler and maybe Black Mask. Characters like Deadshot, Calendar Man and Killer Croc would work better as supporting players.

ANY Batman villain COULD work, written well enough. But that's unlikely to happen for some of those villains.

 

[The Joker]

The Penguin should be top of the list. He's a great villain with so much potential as an adversary.

 

[kewlmatto]

Penguin's not on that list?

Shame on SHH.

The best options for quality all around villains in a reboot (assuming they don't want to repeat villains) are Hugo Strange, The Penguin, The Riddler and maybe Black Mask. Characters like Deadshot, Calendar Man and Killer Croc would work better as supporting players.

ANY Batman villain COULD work, written well enough. But that's unlikely to happen for some of those villains.

If only WB committed to a Bond-esque series of Batman films every two-three years. He has such a wide range of villains which could be used very well in the right hands.

Or, on the other hand, a two-tier strategy - a new adult-geared film series with the big villains, and a TAS-style animated film series with some of the lesser-known and more colourful villains for families.

 

[Rodrigo90]

No villain should be reduced in any way. Look at how partnerships should be done and not done.

Catwoman and Penguin worked.
Riddler and Two-Face just didn't make sense.
Bane and Ivy.............................FU
Freeze and Ivy were just a complete mismatch.

Scarecrow was reduced to some money making bottom feeder of Ra's al Ghul's.
Joker and Two-Face, while not being a partnership worked well under the circumstances and how one influenced the other.
Catwoman - Bane and Talia combo was very well done.

Now who would make the best combo again, without being reduced to ones thug or whatever?

 

[kewlmatto]

Now who would make the best combo again, without being reduced to ones thug or whatever?

That's the trick. Not many films can pull this off well. Dark Knight and Batman Returns do it the best - because the villains aren't really duos or partners - they just spiral into similar plans for a little while, but it doesn't last because they are so unpredictable. This tends to be the better way to have multiple villains.

There's no rule book that says the villains have to have much to do with each other anyway. It might work better to keep them a little separate - or have one of the villains stopped mid-film while the other 'rises' (I can't use that word seriously anymore ).

I agree that Scarecrow was reduced to a lackey, which is a real shame. I don't think he needed to be reduced quite that much.

Some villains need that kind of reduction to work though. Killer Croc in particular. He just can't work as a main villain overall because there isn't much cerebral opposition between him and Batman - it's just about strength and violence.

I think Black Mask and Ivy would work well in the same film. They wouldn't be a partnership though. I'd have Sionis Industries as a pretty terrible company environmentally. As Ivy attacks the company, Sionis becomes Black Mask and a violent rivalry is established. Make Ivy a bit of a tragic figure based on her past, and have Black Mask the bitter revenge-driven villain. Batman is in the crossfires. I think you could honour both this way.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I agree.

At least with Returns they attempted a plot point of partnership. But that was broken by Penguin being a dirty letch, in fitting with his characterization lol

And seeing two main villains working together just feels off to me. Riddler and Two-Face was pretty painful to watch.

Even with good writing, I don't think partnerships really work. It somehow negates the power and presence of both villains once they are together imo.

 

[kewlmatto]

And seeing two main villains working together just feels off to me. Riddler and Two-Face was pretty painful to watch.

Even with good writing, I don't think partnerships really work. It somehow negates the power and presence of both villains once they are together imo.

Yep. Riddler and Two-Face are very poorly done. So was Ivy and Freeze. And Sandman and Venom for that matter (ech - that alley scene where Venom just shows up and says 'how bout a team up?' to Sandman is terrible).

The problem is that it almost completely tosses out their characterisation once the partnership takes hold, and they become just 'cartoon villain unit'. They no longer really function as their own characters.

Batman's villains have always been characterised by criminal insanity. That kind of person just doesn't team up well. And if they do, well, don't expect them to follow through.

I do love scenes with multiple villains in them, but not partnerships. Some of the best scenes in Returns was between Catwoman and Penguin. And my favourite scene in Dark Knight is still that hospital scene with Joker and Two-Face.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Very true.

Team up's just don't work, as you described.

But the best featured scenes from villains together is from the likes Penguin and Catwoman, Joker and Two-Face.

You could get something new next time, like a rivalry between the next pair?

 

[shauner111]

I really want to see a Black Mask and Penguin mob rivalry.

 

[kewlmatto]

I really want to see a Black Mask and Penguin mob rivalry.

That could be good.

I would love to see Penguin with a bit of theatrics too though. His Cobblepot history and their rivalry with the Waynes would be good.

Come to think of it, I would love to see a slightly different take on Court of the Owls with Penguin involved.

 

[Naked Shia]

Batman the movie showed how partnership can work.

 

[batman_1989_]

I'd like to see them taking a few cues from the current comics actually.Batman should be at his peak,with his DCNu suit,Damian Wayne as Robin(flashbacks could explain) because he would be really entertaining ,Nightwing and Red Hood as a recurring villain/occasional ally and Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.

 

[shauner111]

i cant see WB (not for a while anyway) going ahead with Batgirl + the likes of Robin/Nightwing, etc. I dont see them trusting a character like Batgirl or trusting that the majority of people watching will find that appealing.

It'll happen, and it could be cool when it does, but it probably wont be seen for a very long time. They need to focus on a new Batman on his own first (in his own movies once Justice League is wrapped up) and then focus on bringing in Dick Grayson as a teenager and giving him credibility when he teams up with Batman. Establish it over a couple of movies. By the time they get to Batgirl or Damien Wayne it's going to be at least 15 years from now. Maybe more.

 

[metaphysician]

You know, I could almost see WB doing an independent "Batgirl" movie first. . . by which I mean, take Cassandra Cain, and strip from her most of the Bat mythos elements. Have her as a standalone story kind of sort of like how they did Constantine. And it *could* work. It wouldn't, mind, because WB is pretty terrible at doing comic movies, but there's no intrinsic reason it couldn't be done well.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Batman the movie showed how partnership can work.

I wouldn't use that as inspiration lol

 

[TheWatcher]

What about Black Mask and Hugo Strange?

Strange learn his identity while Sionis doesn't need to know his identity to hate both of them.

 

[shauner111]

That's the pair that i thought would be in The Dark Knight Rises. i guess that would be in 2010 when the Strange rumors were circulating. I thought it would be a year after the events of TDK and Bats would be on the run with a huge police chase for the prologue LOL. And Strange would know his identity, or maybe learn it through Roman Sionis.

I think it could of worked if they let these movies keep going for like another few films with different directors. With Batman still active but the villain. Then Nolan came back years later and did his story from Rises.

But yeah Black Mask & Hugo Strange could still work. I just think having the Arkham doctor who's experimenting on patients + the bald head villain who knows Batmans identity. It's a little bit like Bane or Scarecrow. They'll need to do something really cool with it.