Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents Of SHIELD - Episode2.19 - The Dirty Half Dozen

[gerrym51]

Coulson is a Nick Fury 'disciple;. Stands to reason he would do things sort of like Nick Fury. Things 'compartmentized','need to know',don't let the right hand know what the left is doing.

It's not surprising he's doing stuff without telling others-like May.

 

[The Shrike]

Just as I predicted.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=31048345#post31048345

Eat your words, Gonzales haters. Long live the united S.H.I.E.L.D.!

With Coulson in charge.

 

[The Shrike]

wouldn't somebody who's obsessed with taking down Coulson and ignoring hydra possibly be Hydra.

Skrulls comes to mind too. It would be just the kind of thing they would do to weaken the potential opposition. Only a possibility if Marvel can use them though.

 

[The Shrike]

They didn't betray anyone. Their boss is Gonzales, not Coulson...

By that measure, Ward didn't betray anyone either.

They should be thankful Coulson still thinks big picture though, otherwise the chances of him accepting their help vs. larger threats against society would be nill.

 

[Uskok]

And i've already said that by this logic Ward also didn't betray anyone either as his boss was Garrett not Coulson. We now that's not ****ing true.

He betrayed HYDRA.

Dangerous Lunatic? Hardly. Coulson is rational, reasonable, and coherent. Maybe they think the alien blood is still somehow influencing him, but Bobbi said it herself that Coulson is reasonable. Gonzales makes many false assumptions about Coulson. One of those assumptions is that he knows Coulson. Coulson was quick to correct Gonzales about that. It makes me wonder if Gonzales has a hidden agenda because of this.

Coulson himself asked May to kill him if he goes crazy like Garrett.

TBH, the idea that Coulson could be compromised is a valid point which should be addressed. One thing I can't get over is the rampant paranoia about "powered people." Calderon tried to murder Skye, and Gonzales supported him. He also called Skye a "thing" twice and called her "Coulson's powered pet." Gonzales is straight up hostile with that kind of rhetoric.

I don't remember Gonzales saying to Calderon anything like:"Go and kill that thing."

 

[Humbugged]

He betrayed HYDRA.



Coulson himself asked May to kill him if he goes crazy like Garrett.



I don't remember Gonzales saying to Calderon anything like:"Go and kill that thing."

So you don't know what the word if means do you .

And you set up a straw man argument about what the OP said about Gonzales supporting Calderon trying to murder IT.

Did Gonzales continue to support Calderon after it was pointed out that he had tried to kill Skye .Yes or No?

And did you notice that the team that turned up to get Coulson once again was using live ammo .

At this point if wanted to build a new Jasenovac you would find an excuse for their Fascism.

 

[Mike5575]

Coulson himself asked May to kill him if he goes crazy like Garrett.

That was then. After he discovered what the writings meant, he went back to normal.

I don't remember Gonzales saying to Calderon anything like:"Go and kill that thing."

He very well could have, but it just wasn't shown on screen. That's not what I'm talking about though. Gonzales thought Calderon's actions were justified because she was "armed and dangerous", which wasn't true at all when Calderon fired at her. Dehumanizing someone by calling her a "thing" instead of a person also makes it easier to gun that person down. Gonzales would have supported murder even if she was only "catching butterflies."

Then there is the questionable decision to go after Skye to begin with. Skye was in a safehouse with vibranium enforced walls, along with a laser grid surrounding the perimeter. NuShield had control of the Playground, and as a result, Retreat. Skye was safe and other people were safe from her. Going after Skye made no sense unless they planned to kill her.

 

[Uskok]

That was then. After he discovered what the writings meant, he went back to normal.

But the Kree blood is still inside him. And that's what bothers Gonzales. The same blood is inside Skye too. Try to imagine what would happen if Skye goes crazy, with her powers.

He very well could have, but it just wasn't shown on screen. That's not what I'm talking about though. Gonzales thought Calderon's actions were justified because she was "armed and dangerous", which wasn't true at all when Calderon fired at her. Dehumanizing someone by calling her a "thing" instead of a person also makes it easier to gun that person down. Gonzales would have supported murder even if she was only "catching butterflies."

Then there is the questionable decision to go after Skye to begin with. Skye was in a safehouse with vibranium enforced walls, along with a laser grid surrounding the perimeter. NuShield had control of the Playground, and as a result, Retreat. Skye was safe and other people were safe from her. Going after Skye made no sense unless they planned to kill her.

David Angar was captured alive without the use of I.C.E.R.s.

So you don't know what the word if means do you.

And you set up a straw man argument about what the OP said about Gonzales supporting Calderon trying to murder IT.

I know exactly what the word if means, but it seems you don't know what kind of situation we're talking about. They're fighting a war, for God's sake. A war against the seemingly unstoppable threat. In every war, if you don't react quickly, you lose.

Did Gonzales continue to support Calderon after it was pointed out that he had tried to kill Skye .Yes or No?

And did you notice that the team that turned up to get Coulson once again was using live ammo .

Desperate times, desperate measures. To quote Victoria Hand:"HYDRA won't show mercy. Neither can we."

At this point if wanted to build a new Jasenovac you would find an excuse for their Fascism.

I don't remember them saying anything about building concentration camps. There are special facilities for dangerous individuals, like the Brynmore Psychiatric Facility, for example. And they are not fascists, they're S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who are doing their job.

 

[Mike5575]

But the Kree blood is still inside him. And that's what bothers Gonzales. The same blood is inside Skye too. Try to imagine what would happen if Skye goes crazy, with her powers.

I don't know if you regulary watch the show or anything, but all this has been explained. Skye had no adverse reactions to the GH-325 serum. This is because of her unique origins as an Inhuman. Coulson is fine. Gonzales seems to have a negative bias towards Coulson. Here's a list of things he gets wrong despite the "Intel" from Bobbi and Mac:

1. Hartley's death came about because of Coulson's obsession with alien objects. Coulson wasn't obsessed with alien objects. He wanted to keep Hydra from getting their hands on. Very dangerous object.

2. He claims to know Coulson, but never really did.

3. He asks Coulson if he was forced to go down into the temple, or if he was just curious.

4. He assumes Coulson is stockpiling gifted people.

David Angar was captured alive without the use of I.C.E.R.s.

I fail to see your point here. All this proves is that while Team Coulson will capture dangerous criminal gifteds alive, NuShield will gun down completely innocent ones.

I know exactly what the word if means, but it seems you don't know what kind of situation we're talking about. They're fighting a war, for God's sake. A war against the seemingly unstoppable threat. In every war, if you don't react quickly, you lose.

You sound a bit like Magneto or Bolivar Trask from DOFP, and that's not a good thing. If Shield is at war with anyone, it's Hydra.

Desperate times, desperate measures. To quote Victoria Hand:"HYDRA won't show mercy. Neither can we."

Wait, are you actually comparing Skye to Hydra? Ever heard of de-escalating a situation? It's a common procedure used by law enforcement procedure. Sometimes people need to be talked down to get a control of the situation. Calderon clearly had the jump on Skye. Calderon could have easily gave her a verbal warning with his gun trained and ordered her to drop the weapon. He clearly lost control of the situation, and as a result, seven other agents including himself were injured. If you ask me, the real danger kiss with bigots like Calderon and people who support his actions like Gonzales.

I don't remember them saying anything about building concentration camps. There are special facilities for dangerous individuals, like the Brynmore Psychiatric Facility, for example. And they are not fascists, they're S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who are doing their job.

Well, they'd be more comfortable with locking them up whether they are dangerous or not. Fear and paranoia drives NuShield's decision making process. Gifteds, enhanced are still people and should be afforded the same rights as us.

 

[Pokkle]

Donnie wasn't captured alive by Coulson and Skye.
Like Skye said when she said she was afraid to be on the disabeled list, she know what it is to be on the other side.
Like Jiaying said to Skye, Skye also killed someone.

 

[Humbugged]

But the Kree blood is still inside him. And that's what bothers Gonzales. The same blood is inside Skye too. Try to imagine what would happen if Skye goes crazy, with her powers.

He might have Jewish ,Tutsi ,Roma or Serb blood in him as well .Some of that might bother some people .But then those people are fascist tossers

David Angar was captured alive without the use of I.C.E.R.s.

By Coulson's crew bear in mind ,Not Gonzales .So why is that an example of Caudillo Gonzales behaviour

I know exactly what the word if means, but it seems you don't know what kind of situation we're talking about. They're fighting a war, for God's sake. A war against the seemingly unstoppable threat. In every war, if you don't react quickly, you lose.

Who declared war on Skye ?

Up until he sent the heavies against her she was a loyal SHIELD agent who fought against HYDRA as much as he did .And took her lumps like he did

Desperate times, desperate measures. To quote Victoria Hand:"HYDRA won't show mercy. Neither can we."

None of Coulson's crew are HYDRA .

I don't remember them saying anything about building concentration camps. There are special facilities for dangerous individuals, like the Brynmore Psychiatric Facility, for example. And they are not fascists, they're S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who are doing their job.

So you start of in the first sentence saying who mentioned Concentration camps.
And in the next sentence go on to advocate concentrating people who 'you' don't like in mental facilities .You do see the irony there ?That is the definition of a Concentration camp

But you could always create a revisionist history about it later on

 

[Humbugged]

Donnie wasn't captured alive by Coulson and Skye.
Like Skye said when she said she was afraid to be on the disabeled list, she know what it is to be on the other side.
Like Jiaying said to Skye, Skye also killed someone.

Donny was trying to kill someone at that point in time .

And we do not know if Donnie(who was a murderer) is dead ,The show made a point of saying that they were not sure .

And Jiaying knows **** at this point .

 

[Pokkle]

He was brainwashed and Simmons unconsciously helped to do this brainwashing.
It was very morally gray to kill him

 

[Humbugged]

He was brainwashed and Simmons unconsciously helped to do this brainwashing.
It was very morally gray to kill him

No its not morally grey .If he was in the act of killing someone and the only way to stop him and save lives is to shoot him you shoot him .

And how does what Simmons did or didn't do affect Skye's decision to take the shot ? Skye didn't know he was brainwashed (unless she was getting sneak peeks) and didn't even know that Simmons was even there


And for the umpteenth time .WE DON'T KNOW IF HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD

 

[Demileto]

To quote Victoria Hand:"HYDRA won't show mercy. Neither can we."

Oh, yeah, and look where that got her, shot dead by the man she ordered to kill a HYDRA prisioner.

 

[Humbugged]

Oh, yeah, and look where that got her, shot dead by the man she ordered to kill a HYDRA prisioner.

 

[Pokkle]

No its not morally grey .If he was in the act of killing someone and the only way to stop him and save lives is to shoot him you shoot him .

And how does what Simmons did or didn't do affect Skye's decision to take the shot ? Skye didn't know he was brainwashed (unless she was getting sneak peeks) and didn't even know that Simmons was even there


And for the umpteenth time .WE DON'T KNOW IF HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD

Dead or not, she tried to kill him, with Coulson's orders.
And Simmons was undercover with Coulson's orders.

 

[Humbugged]

Dead or not, she tried to kill him, with Coulson's orders.
And Simmons was undercover with Coulson's orders.

And once again she was within her rights to do it .He was attempting to kill people .I'm not arguing that it never wrong to use lethal force ,its just that they went armed and willing to kill an unarmed fellow agent who was posing no danger to anyone.

What should she have done sat him down and made him a cup of tea,gave him a foot massage ?

We knew Simmons was undercover at that point ,she didn't .What is your point ?That because she was undercover HYDRA should have been allowed to kill 2 people?

 

[Mike5575]

Donnie wasn't captured alive by Coulson and Skye.
Like Skye said when she said she was afraid to be on the disabeled list, she know what it is to be on the other side.
Like Jiaying said to Skye, Skye also killed someone.

Donnie was being brainwashed by Hydra. Hydra would have used him as a weapon to harm more innocent people. In fact, he was already trying to kill May and Hinter by icing the ship.

Dead or not, she tried to kill him, with Coulson's orders.
And Simmons was undercover with Coulson's orders.

Undercover is undercover. There is more than Simmons or Donni's lives to consider. The undercover work Simmons is doing could have had the potential to save thousands of lives. She uncovered a Hydra plot about an "extinction level event."

 

[Pokkle]

And once again she was within her rights to do it .He was attempting to kill people .I'm not arguing that it never wrong to use lethal force ,its just that they went armed and willing to kill an unarmed fellow agent who was posing no danger to anyone.

What should she have done sat him down and made him a cup of tea,gave him a foot massage ?

We knew Simmons was undercover at that point ,she didn't .What is your point ?That because she was undercover HYDRA should have been allowed to kill 2 people?

There's many ways to neutralize somebody without killing him.
Donnie was brainwashed again, and it's partly Coulson and Simmons's fault.
And shield is still illegal, they have no right to do anything.

I'm saying this was morally gray exactly like Gonzales's actions.
And this was too usefull and effective.

 

[Chemistro]

Donnie wasn't captured alive by Coulson and Skye.
Like Skye said when she said she was afraid to be on the disabeled list, she know what it is to be on the other side.
Like Jiaying said to Skye, Skye also killed someone.

Why do you think Jiaying was talking about Donnie?
She may well have been talking about the Hydra agent she killed with a diviner. Raina knew about that, and she could have told Gordon, who could have told Jiaying. More likely still, she may have been talking about the possibility that Skye's actions at the retreat might have killed someone. Gordon knew about that, and he would have told Jiaying. On the other hand, it's more difficult for Jiajing to know about Donnie.

There's many ways to neutralize somebody without killing him.

How could Skye have neutralized Donnie, once he was trying to kill May and Hunter?
The question was whether Coulson's order before he used his power, was justified. But once Donnie was trying to kill them, there was no other way to protect them.
Still, what do you think Skye should have done?

Donnie was brainwashed again, and it's partly Coulson and Simmons's fault.

When she went undercover, she had no good reason to suspect that that might happen. But that aside, if it's their fault, what do you think they should have done instead?

And shield is still illegal, they have no right to do anything.

There is a difference between having a right in the legal sense, and having a right in the moral sense. But from a moral perspective, what do you think they have no moral right to do?

=Pokkle]
I'm saying this was morally gray exactly like Gonzales's actions.
And this was too usefull and effective.

His actions against Skye and more generally, his beliefs, comments and actions regarding people with powers are plain wrong.

 

[Pokkle]

She could have bring an Icer or the thing that capture Vin-Tak.

 

[Humbugged]

She could have bring an Icer or the thing that capture Vin-Tak.

There was a boat full of armed HYDRA agents which is why they all had live ammo.

And you wanted her to bring the Destroyer gun that has an unpredictable charge ?

 

[Demileto]

And you wanted her to bring the Destroyer gun that has an unpredictable charge ?

No, he meant the electrical net that immobilized him.

 

[Pokkle]

But that's just my opinion, episode 19 is far away, let's wait and see how the situation evolve.