All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 2

[Flint Marko]

Y... Yes it does. That's not just how filmmaking works but storytelling in general works. You set something up, and you pay it off. You show the gun put in a drawer in the first act, and you take it out and fire it in the third. This is a fundamental aspect of storytelling that theycompletely ignored for this scene. Maybe they thought it wasn't important or Snyder and Goyer don't understand this concept or maybe they're too stupid. I'd guess all three personally.

Here's the thing: Snyder did think this moment was important. In fact it was so important that he defied Nolan's advice to excise Superman killing from the film and did it anyways. However, he failed to make it matter. Zero impact on the story or the character, which only shows that it was done because "it'd be, like, sick bro".

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

idk, it worked fine for over 70 years not bringing him down to our level

During those 70 years you do realise he killed Zod and his 2 followers in the comics don't you?

At least in MOS he only kills Zod. Zod makes it clear before and during the fight if Superman doesn't take him down he will take his anger out on humanity. Superman did what he had to as trying to beat Zod into submission didn't work.

 

[TeeKay]

Here's the thing: Snyder did think this moment was important. In fact it was so important that he defied Nolan's advice to excise Superman killing from the film and did it anyways. However, he failed to make it matter. Zero impact on the story or the character, which only shows that it was done because "it'd be, like, sick bro".

Didn't Snyder come out and say that Superman killing Zod was the formation of the no kill rule? Absolutely makes no sense to me.

 

[Patchwork Man]

idk, it worked fine for over 70 years not bringing him down to our level

Then Superman Returns happened and everyone went "Been there. Done that." I know I did! MoS was the shot in the arm Superman needed.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

During those 70 years you do realise he killed Zod and his 2 followers in the comics don't you?

yes, I realise there are and were writers who didn't get the character as well.
And it's these times were they brought him down and were he didn't work. That's the inherent trouble with longlasting series written by different people.

Superman did what he had to as trying to beat Zod into submission didn't work.

rewatching the scene, the simple solution would have been putting his hand over Zod's eyes. Here. Fixed the problem.


For free.

 

[Patchwork Man]

yes, I realise there are and were writers who didn't get the character as well.
And it's these times were they brought him down and were he didn't work. That's the inherent trouble with longlasting series written by different people.

Sorry, buddy boy, being condescending isn't helping you win this non-argument. John Byrne "got" Superman more than you ever will.

It's best for you to say you prefer the Silver Age Superman and leave it at that.

rewatching the scene, the simple solution would have been putting his hand over Zod's eyes. Here. Fixed the problem.


For free.

Haha, certainly! The movie could then end right there, because Zod would tap out and hit Chili's.

 

[Flint Marko]

Or, even better, don't contrive a climactic, world-breaking fight scene where the most iconic superhero of all time has to murder someone unless you have an actual reason for doing so.

 

[titansupes]

@Flint Marko (and others)-- That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

yes, I realise there are and were writers who didn't get the character as well.
And it's these times were they brought him down and were he didn't work. That's the inherent trouble with longlasting series written by different people.

rewatching the scene, the simple solution would have been putting his hand over Zod's eyes. Here. Fixed the problem.


For free.

Your interpretation of the character being different to the writers doesn't mean they didn't get him. Superman as a charmer has had many different iterations over the years with varying opinions on them. Doesn't make any particularly right or wrong. But John Byrne is known for getting Superman more than most.

As for him covering Zod's eyes, where does he imprison Zod after? And how does he get him there? When Superman is screaming at Zod to stop, and Zod retorts "Never!" Superman realises then he has to put Zod down, you even see it on his face just beforehand. Zod would never stop until he made humanity suffer as he had promised. So Superman had no choice.

 

[Flint Marko]

So Superman had no choice.

The writers had a choice.

 

[Boy Scout]

During those 70 years you do realise he killed Zod and his 2 followers in the comics don't you?

Superman has killed people before, but the VAST majority of his stories have depicted him as a man with a strict policy against killing. Revisionist history won't change that.

Superman did what he had to as trying to beat Zod into submission didn't work.

I hate that Superman killed Zod, but I understand why he did it. There were no other alternatives. But the decision to force him to take Zod's life - which was made by Zack Snyder and David Goyer - is one that I don't understand, and there were plenty of alternatives.

Then Superman Returns happened and everyone went "Been there. Done that." I know I did! MoS was the shot in the arm Superman needed.

Sorry, what? He's just as irrelevant now as he was then.

Or, even better, don't contrive a scene where Superman has to kill someone unless you have a good reason for doing so.

QFT.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Or, even better, don't contrive a scene where Superman has to kill someone unless you have a good reason for doing so.

but still, if you HAVE written yourself into that corner, again, watching the scene in question, his hand is just a few centimeters away from the laserbeam shooting Zodeyes, the same hand that isn't botherd by this beam, since Kryptonian and stuff. Just. Hold. The. Hand. Over. Zod's. Eyes.
The family would be saved, could run away, and the Zod and Kal could freely brawl again, destroying the rest of the city

 

[Mandon Knight]

I wonder if we'll still be having this discussion/fight in another four years time

 

[Samuron]

where does he imprison Zod after? And how does he get him there?

This sounds like a job for Screenwriterman!

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Your interpretation of the character being different to the writers doesn't mean they didn't get him. Superman as a charmer has had many different iterations over the years with varying opinions on them. Doesn't make any particularly right or wrong. But John Byrne is known for getting Superman more than most.

As for him covering Zod's eyes, where does he imprison Zod after? And how does he get him there? When Superman is screaming at Zod to stop, and Zod retorts "Never!" Superman realises then he has to put Zod down, you even see it on his face just beforehand. Zod would never stop until he made humanity suffer as he had promised. So Superman had no choice.

Then you lack as much imagination as Goyer and Snyder did. Superman has ALWAYS a choice

 

[Patchwork Man]

but still, if you HAVE written yourself into that corner, again, watching the scene in question, his hand is just a few centimeters away from the laserbeam shooting Zodeyes, the same hand that isn't botherd by this beam, since Kryptonian and stuff. Just. Hold. The. Hand. Over. Zod's. Eyes.
The family would be saved, could run away, and the Zod and Kal could freely brawl again, destroying the rest of the city

And you'd complain about that.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

And you'd complain about that.

At that point I would have complained for about two long hours already, so what difference does it make if I complain another hour or so longer?

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Hahaha John Byrne doesn't get Superman. That's a good one.

 

[Patchwork Man]

The writers had a choice.

This applies to every movie every made, including the Superman film that immediately precedes Man of Steel. Straw man.

 

[GothamBat]

Sorry, buddy boy, being condescending isn't helping you win this non-argument. John Byrne "got" Superman more than you ever will.

It's best for you to say you prefer the Silver Age Superman and leave it at that.




Haha, certainly! The movie could then end right there, because Zod would tap out and hit Chili's.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Haha, certainly! The movie could then end right there, because Zod would tap out and hit Chili's.

See, with a little bit of goodwill you can come to a resolution to that conflict that's better than what we got

 

[GothamBat]

but still, if you HAVE written yourself into that corner, again, watching the scene in question, his hand is just a few centimeters away from the laserbeam shooting Zodeyes, the same hand that isn't botherd by this beam, since Kryptonian and stuff. Just. Hold. The. Hand. Over. Zod's. Eyes.
The family would be saved, could run away, and the Zod and Kal could freely brawl again, destroying the rest of the city

How was the scene a result of the writers writing themselves into a corner? if anything they intentionally lead things to that moment so they could make the scene happen. The exact opposite of being written into a corner. And you just literally made your own counter-argument there by saying that after saving the family they would just go back to fighting without an end in sight. It had to happen, whether it was to save the family or not.

 

[titansupes]

Byrne's run has a lot of fun issues that I'd be glad to pick up in an omnibus someday (hurry up, DC) but in the long run, he did a lot of damage to Superman that writers are still tossing and toying with.

Also, anybody that switches his personality to "Clark Kent is who I am, Superman is what I can do" has fundamentally missed the point of the character.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

See, that's that "Santa Clause" s*** that people harp on about. Some people aren't content with allowing Superman to be a character in a story. That's why he can't be taken seriously (Superman Returns).

 

[Flint Marko]

Let's all remember that the other proposed ending was Superman locking Zod in the Phantom Zone, something that the writers could have done with ease. This was the ending that Nolan preferred but hell, what does he know.

Funny thing about this that just goes to further prove my point? Had Superman locked Zod back in the phantom zone, Superman as a character would have been exactly the same, demonstrating just how cheap and meaningless Zod's death was.

This applies to every movie every made, including the Superman film that immediately precedes Man of Steel. Straw man.