All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 4

[flickchick85]

DC should switch up their strategy. I was at Target today in the birthday aisle for kids. There were Pokémon, Star Wars, Marvel (multiple characters featured), and Batman themes . I found it odd that no other superhero from DC had caught on enough with kids to be featured in the birthday aisle. Then I saw the DC superhero girls line. Harley, Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Supergirl were prominently featured. This is what DC should focus on. It’s their last hope against Marvel. The only arena where DC has a leg up on them is the female superhero department, and DC should exploit that as soon as possible

Indeed, DC's female characters crush Marvel's, imo, and they should really be taking advantage of that. Keep going with Margot's Harley (hopefully with better material in the future), give us a good Wonder Woman trilogy, don't give up on Batgirl (and include Batwoman in either that or the Batman franchise), put Supergirl in an MoS sequel with spin-off potential, include Jessica Cruz in Green Lantern Corps, do something with Catwoman.

 

[Juan1193]

You are absolutely right.
I go to Disney World with my brother’s family every summer. Past couple years have played a game with my niece and nephew of counting superhero t-shirts on guests and seeing which hero wins. This past summer a big surprise was the number of little girls in DC Superhero Girls T’s.
It was startling.
As I mentioned in the Batgirl movie thread, the one area where DC has some distinction and public good will is with female superheroes after Wonder Woman.
Diana, Batgirl, Catwoman, Supergirl, and Harley Quinn dwarf any Marvel characters in public awareness.
If Warner had any competence, they wouldn’t have just immediately greenlit WW2, but seen a broad brand advantage and prioritized Batgirl- under any means necessary- and Birds of Prey as well.
Right now, a DC female superhero film would have as much anticipation and merchandising possibilities with girls as a new Disney princess film. Warner could own this brand.
But now we have the mess with Batgirl, Captain Marvel is filming, and a Black Widow Avengers-style team-up film is in active production.

Warner seems poised to mess up yet again. You can see a future five years from now where people are, once again, talking in amazement about formerly unknown (outside of nerd culture, that is), b-list Marvel female characters being more popular than DC characters who have been in the public consciousness for generations.

Why do I get the feeling that is what's going to end up happening?

Though I do remain hopeful since animation and TV are killing it! Super Hero Girls is a HUGE brand and is about to get a full length animated series, which means more merchandise (I want a Jessica Cruz doll, don't judge me lol), Harley has an animated series in the works with Poison Ivy (Wonder Woman will probably get one too), Supergirl has her own show, and Traci 13 has a show in development. There's also Titans, which will feature Raven, Starfire and Dove, plus the many Arrowverse ladies. I hope the movie side can keep up!

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Indeed, DC's female characters crush Marvel's, imo, and they should really be taking advantage of that. Keep going with Margot's Harley (hopefully with better material in the future), give us a good Wonder Woman trilogy, don't give up on Batgirl (and include Batwoman in either that or the Batman franchise), put Supergirl in an MoS sequel with spin-off potential, include Jessica Cruz in Green Lantern Corps, do something with Catwoman.

They did:

 

[Micromind]

OK, 'Catwoman' was connected to DC Comics source material in name only, their mistake and the movie itself was terrible.

But hypothetically speaking, since this was the second time WB/DC made a female centric 'super-hero' movie (first one being Supergirl) featuring a Black actress (Halle Berry, who had won an Oscar in 2002), had they made a really good movie, would this movie got as much recognition as Black Panther has got now and would this movie earned as much as Black Panther has earned back then in 2004 ?

 

[2kt09]

OK, 'Catwoman' was connected to DC Comics source material in name only, their mistake and the movie itself was terrible.

But hypothetically speaking, since this was the second time WB/DC made a female centric 'super-hero' movie (first one being Supergirl) featuring a Black actress (Halle Berry, who had won an Oscar in 2002), had they made a really good movie, would this movie got as much recognition as Black Panther has got now and would this movie earned as much as Black Panther has earned back then in 2004 ?

Well, 4 years later Hancock came out and its aggregates were middling, yet even an original superhero flick like that made more than the avg cbm.

 

[Phoenix_Flare]

^^^ lol but the WB/DCEU’s mistake was trying to put out to much to soon and took time to map this out instead of trying to give Marvel a run for their money. I think it should have went like this: Man of Steel (2013), The Batman (2015), Man of Steel 2 (early 2016), Batman vs Superman (early 2017), Wonder Woman (summer ‘17), Justice League/Aquaman could be potential BO hits if both released in 2018 and then you head into space with The Green Lantern Corp, Wonder Woman 2 and The Flash for a 2019 triple threat release, then bring the magic with Shazam in 2020 and follow up Justice League 2 later in 2020.

I left out Suicide Squad because if they are going to do their own villains stories then it should be it’s own thing. which is cool because you will have two separate universes that still coexist but don’t have to mix either. I’m fine with hero cameos; Nightwing, Batgirl, Supergirl, (if they fit the story)but DC has cool heroes and the most popular villains to have a Heroes DCEU and Villians DCEU. If it went it like this WB would have definitely one up Marvel by ha ing a heroes and villains universe. And somewhere in the future if a writer or director is brave enough to pitch a Suicide Squad vs Justice League movie that’ll be dope! But the twist is it’s actually the heroes gone rogue and the Squad has to take them down.

 

[I Am The Knight]

They did:

Lolol.

 

[Phoenix_Flare]

My version of Batman vs superman would not be what we got. I would have merged the world of Gotham with Metropolis and team up a villain from Batman’s rogue gallery with Luxor, to combat a potential bigger threat that Luthor created, perhaps Metallo. Still include WW but Bruce’s journey would be accepting help from Supes and WW because of what happened to Jason and Barbera.

 

[BaronZemo]

DC won't up Marvel in terms of female characters. They have been making cbms for 30 years and i can barely name 3 good female characters in their live-action movies. Marvel is filming Captain marvel, Wasp is co-leading Ant-man 2, Black Widow has a writer who has met with Scarlett numerous times and in terms of numbers of good female characters Marvel fares better than any other cb franchise.

DC has no advantage on superheroines.

 

[misslane38]

Marvel is filming Captain marvel, Wasp is co-leading Ant-man 2, Black Widow has a writer who has met with Scarlett numerous times and in terms of numbers of good female characters Marvel fares better than any other cb franchise.

DC has filmed and released a critically acclaimed and popular Wonder Woman film and will be filming its sequel in a few months.

Mera is co-leading Aquaman in December.

Margot Robbie has been producing Gotham City Sirens.

DC seems interested in a Batgirl film.

DC has no advantage on superheroines.

I think it does. In addition to the characters already in the mix, there are so many other great ideas for female-led or female-centric DC films: Vixen, Birds of Prey, Batwoman, Catwoman, and Supergirl. There are also cool possibilities with Hawkgirl, Katana, Starfire, and Miss Martian.

Some of the major DC ladies include Wonder Woman, Mera, Hawkgirl, Supergirl, Batgirl, Batwoman, Black Canary, Huntress, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Zatanna, Killer Frost, Katana, Green Lantern (Jessica Cruz), Vixen, Big Barda, and Starfire.

Female superhero teams include Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, DC Bombshells, DC SuperHero Girls.

 

[Zarex]

DC definitely has the edge with female characters - Wondy, Harley. and Kara are all (imo) in DCs top 10 and I don't have any Marvel ladies at that level. The Superhero Girl marketing push in particular was a brilliant effort.

But the DC leading ladies are a tad too heavy on female versions of male characters. And, as always, it comes down to execution. Shuri, Nakia and Okoye were on no one's radar a few weeks back but they have been elevated to the big leagues. Marvel will also be benefitting by adding the X-Ladies to the MCU, which should help close the gap.

 

[BH/HHH]

My version of Batman vs superman would not be what we got. I would have merged the world of Gotham with Metropolis and team up a villain from Batman’s rogue gallery with Luxor, to combat a potential bigger threat that Luthor created, perhaps Metallo. Still include WW but Bruce’s journey would be accepting help from Supes and WW because of what happened to Jason and Barbera.

You know what could have been a great story arc to pull from Matt Wagner’s Trinity.

Still we’re it me I’d have done the film in two parts. BvS would have been about Batman vs Superman and Dawn of Justice would have been about the two uniting with the introduction of Wonder Woman and the idea of other metas.

 

[BaronZemo]

DC definitely has the edge with female characters - Wondy, Harley. and Kara are all (imo) in DCs top 10 and I don't have any Marvel ladies at that level. The Superhero Girl marketing push in particular was a brilliant effort.

But the DC leading ladies are a tad too heavy on female versions of male characters. And, as always, it comes down to execution. Shuri, Nakia and Okoye were on no one's radar a few weeks back but they have been elevated to the big leagues. Marvel will also be benefitting by adding the X-Ladies to the MCU, which should help close the gap.

I was refering to live-action. Despite all the wealth you mention in the comics their only successful female-driven film happened last year.

In terms of good live-action female characters Marvel in 10 years has more than DC has in 30 years. I can easily think an MCU top 5 of good female characters. I struggle to find one of the DC movies, DCEU or not.

That was my point. DC might have gotten in the female driven game sooner and good for them, WW is a good movie but in terms of number of female characters Marvel has in the edge on both DC films and Fox Marvel films. That's the general consensus.

 

[FunkMiller]

DC definitely has the edge with female characters - Wondy, Harley. and Kara are all (imo) in DCs top 10 and I don't have any Marvel ladies at that level. The Superhero Girl marketing push in particular was a brilliant effort.

DC certainly does have the edge when it comes to female characters. Sadly, DC cinema is also run by cretins, so Marvel will still probably do a better job in the long run.

 

[misslane38]

I was refering to live-action. Despite all the wealth you mention in the comics their only successful female-driven film happened last year.

Yet, Marvel doesn't even have that yet. Just because it hasn't happened yet, like the Captain Marvel film, doesn't mean there isn't potential.

In terms of good live-action female characters Marvel in 10 years has more than DC has in 30 years. I can easily think an MCU top 5 of good female characters. I struggle to find one of the DC movies, DCEU or not.

How is this a compliment? All this says is that the MCU has had more time to include more female characters in its films and made more films. What you're describing here is quantity, not quality. I say that because giving DC 30 years is not fair, given that it's not been actively making CBM franchise films, especially shared universe films, for that long. The DCEU has only existed for 5 years. Before that, there were more female led-DC films than Marvel with Supergirl and Catwoman. Catwoman also had a good showing in The Dark Knight Rises. They weren't great films, but their existence certainly speaks to DC leading with female-led films and the organic nature of some of their female characters to be leads. Beyond that, in the DCEU alone there are characters like Harley Quinn, Wonder Woman, Mera, and Amanda Waller who have all been leads to varying degrees already. Lois Lane is even a vital female character who, though not getting her own movie, is getting her own TV show just like Supergirl has her own.

That was my point. DC might have gotten in the female driven game sooner and good for them, WW is a good movie but in terms of number of female characters Marvel has in the edge on both DC films and Fox Marvel films. That's the general consensus.

This doesn't make sense, and I don't know where you're getting this idea that there is a general consensus, at least in terms of female characters with potential. Marvel only has more, because they've had more time to make more. So, yes, they have more at the moment. So what? So, all DC needs to do is make movies. All of these female characters need to be given a chance whether they are DC or Marvel. Already, Wonder Woman, Harley Quinn, and Mera have been given such a chance. Beyond that, plans, as tentative as they may be, exist for female-led solo and team movies like Batgirl and Gotham City Sirens/Birds of Prey. Some of the characters in GCS/BoP could spin off into their own films.

Let me give you another example, Black Panther is a character that had a lot of potential and that only existed in comics before a film existed to showcase him and his world. He had a brief appearance in Civil War, but that was it. He didn't even need to have that, as Captain Marvel is able to have her own movie without showing up in a previous one. Consequently, if DC has female characters with a lot of potential in their comics, then that speaks to DC's potential to capitalize on that with their films. They could make a Vixen movie, which would be both a female-led film like WW and a form of African/Black celebration and representation like BP.

 

[semper]

Honestly, quite a lot of "big" DC female heroes, are just female replicas of their male characters. That's why they may seem more "iconic". Powergirl and Supergirl are just female Superman. Hawkgirl is Hawkman. Batgirl and Batwoman are just Batman.

Marvel has those too (Spider-Woman, She-Hulk etc) but they seem to have far more great female heroes whose identity doesn't rest upon being the exact counterpart of a male character. Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Invisible Woman, Jessica Jones, Elektra, Black Widow, Misty Knight and many more.

Marvel has better female characters, but not as many of them rely on the power of a male namesake.

 

[misslane38]

Marvel has better female characters, but not as many of them rely on the power of a male namesake.

Supergirl, Powergirl, Batgirl, Batwoman, Hawkgirl, Miss Martian, and Wonder Girl are the only DC heroes who are linked to a male counterpart, but there's plenty more who aren't spinoffs of male heroes: Zatanna, Huntress, Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Renee Montoya, Saturn Girl, Stargirl, Mera, Vixen, Catwoman, Raven, Katana, Black Canary, Oracle, Isis, Amanda Waller, Bumble Bee, Poison Ivy, and Big Barda. Plus, the bottom line for me is whether or not the character can carry her own film, and I think characters like Harley Quinn and Batgirl fit that description.

 

[daddydivine]

Honestly, quite a lot of "big" DC female heroes, are just female replicas of their male characters. That's why they may seem more "iconic". Powergirl and Supergirl are just female Superman. Hawkgirl is Hawkman. Batgirl and Batwoman are just Batman.

Marvel has those too (Spider-Woman, She-Hulk etc) but they seem to have far more great female heroes whose identity doesn't rest upon being the exact counterpart of a male character. Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde, Invisible Woman, Jessica Jones, Elektra, Black Widow, Misty Knight and many more.

Marvel has better female characters, but not as many of them rely on the power of a male namesake.

Name recognition means absolutely nothing. Marvel could make a Squirrel Girl movie and have a bigger box office than Justice League.

DC/WB have proven that quality tops a supposed edge in popularity.

 

[MbJ]

Name recognition means absolutely nothing. Marvel could make a Squirrel Girl movie and have a bigger box office than Justice League.

DC/WB have proven that quality tops a supposed edge in popularity.

Yup. The problem now though is that the DC film universe has been a train wreck and drained a lot of audience goodwill. It's true that Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Batgirl and Harley Quinn are more iconic than most of Marvel's women, but unless they're able to get the DCEU back on track, I don't think that's gonna mean much.

And then of course as you mentioned, iconicness is far less of a factor in today's landscape than it used to be. A Black Panther movie just blew past a team of some DC's greatest and most iconic heroes at the box office. Marvel's at the point where they could make the audience get invested in just about any character they put out, while WB has had a serious problem getting audiences to connect with their heroes who aren't Wonder Woman and Harley.

 

[misslane38]

Name recognition means absolutely nothing. Marvel could make a Squirrel Girl movie and have a bigger box office than Justice League.

DC/WB have proven that quality tops a supposed edge in popularity.

Wonder Woman was made and did well critically and financially. Suicide Squad, for all its faults, still made loads of cash probably in part because of Harley's popularity. DC/WB films show that quality and popularity are both important. Moreover, potential means very little unless it's realized both in terms of making the films and making them in a way that will be successful. Marvel is more reliably successful overall, but DC seems to have more initiative when it comes to female-led projects, and so far its greatest successes either with critics or at the box office have been with movies with their most popular female characters. This is actually more of an indictment of the MCU. If they are guaranteed success, why haven't they taken more risks in terms of doing female led films? Why drag their feet with women or any less represented groups and let DC take the lead?

And then of course as you mentioned, iconicness is far less of a factor in today's landscape than it used to be. A Black Panther movie just blew past a team of some DC's greatest and most iconic heroes at the box office. Marvel's at the point where they could make the audience get invested in just about any character they put out, while WB has had a serious problem getting audiences to connect with their heroes who aren't Wonder Woman and Harley.

Black Panther is also likely to do better than a lot of other MCU movies. If you can say that DC's track record of successes vs. failures indicates that their successes are exclusively with their female characters, like Wonder Woman and Harley, then that is just further proof of DC's strength in that area.

 

[semper]

Supergirl, Powergirl, Batgirl, Batwoman, Hawkgirl, Miss Martian, and Wonder Girl are the only DC heroes who are linked to a male counterpart, but there's plenty more who aren't spinoffs of male heroes: Zatanna, Huntress, Starfire, Jessica Cruz, Renee Montoya, Saturn Girl, Stargirl, Mera, Vixen, Catwoman, Raven, Katana, Black Canary, Oracle, Isis, Amanda Waller, Bumble Bee, Poison Ivy, and Big Barda. Plus, the bottom line for me is whether or not the character can carry her own film, and I think characters like Harley Quinn and Batgirl fit that description.

Jessica Cruz is a female Green Lantern (the only Earth one, so she is a counterpart of the GL Earth guys). Starfire was a great character under Marv Wolfman, but only under him. Every writer since has turned her into a generic blow-up sex object for Nightwing to screw when he's on the outs with Barbara Gordon. Katana was reduced to a barely talking extra in Suicide Squad Several of the women you mention are outright villains (Poison ivy, Harley Quinn) and I'm talking about heroes.

Batgirl can carry her own movie because she's the female equivalent to Batman. Her iconic status comes from him (same for Supergirl and Superman).

Try sell a Barbara Gordon movie under the name "Oracle", and find out how many people truly care about Barbara Gordon without the "Bat" name to propel her.

Princess Shuri from Black Panther could probably carry her own film now, without needing to take the Black Panther identity.

 

[semper]

Wonder Woman was made and did well critically and financially. Suicide Squad, for all its faults, still made loads of cash probably in part because of Harley's popularity. DC/WB films show that quality and popularity are both important. Moreover, potential means very little unless it's realized both in terms of making the films and making them in a way that will be successful. Marvel is more reliably successful overall, but DC seems to have more initiative when it comes to female-led projects, and so far its greatest successes either with critics or at the box office have been with movies with their most popular female characters. This is actually more of an indictment of the MCU. If they are guaranteed success, why haven't they taken more risks in terms of doing female led films? Why drag their feet with women or any less represented groups and let DC take the lead?



Black Panther is also likely to do better than a lot of other MCU movies. If you can say that DC's track record of successes vs. failures indicates that their successes are exclusively with their female characters, like Wonder Woman and Harley, then that is just further proof of DC's strength in that area.

Marvel took a long time to have female and black leads, because the Marvel Entertainment CEO, Ike Perlmutter, was/is a notorious sexist and racist. Kevin Fiege still had to answer to this guy and he had to greenlight things, and female or black movie leads were not on Perlmutter's agenda. Feige managed to convince Disney to remove Perlmutter from the movie division, so Fiege could answer straight to Disney. And that's why we are now seeing Black Panther, and are going to see Captain Marvel and Black Widow. And possibly that all-female team of heroes that Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson a pushing Fiege for.

It's not an indictment on Marvel, but an indictment on Perlmutter, a virus that the Marvel film divison has gotten rid of.

 

[misslane38]

Jessica Cruz is a female Green Lantern (the only Earth one, so she is a counterpart of the GL Earth guys). Starfire was a great character under Marv Wolfman, but only under him. Every writer since has turned her into a generic blow-up sex object for Nightwing to screw when he's on the outs with Barbara Gordon. Katana was reduced to a barely talking extra in Suicide Squad Several of the women you mention are outright villains (Poison ivy, Harley Quinn) and I'm talking about heroes.

Green Lanterns are not gendered. They are all part of a Corps that have existed for a long time. If Jessica is a Lantern, it's because she was chosen, and not because she was inspired by a man. You wouldn't say the same about John Stewart would you? Heroes or villains doesn't matter when it comes to making films that can have a female as its lead and that can be successful, which was the overall topic of discussion. So, Harley Quinn-driven projects can be a strength for DC, and so far they have in terms of box office. As for the rest, I think you're overstating and overgeneralizing about Starfire's characterization. She had a recent comic that did well by her, I believe, and she's done well in her animated appearances, including DC SuperHero girls. She will also star in the upcoming Teen Titans live action television series.

Batgirl can carry her own movie because she's the female equivalent to Batman. Her iconic status comes from him (same for Supergirl and Superman).

Try sell a Barbara Gordon movie under the name "Oracle", and find out how many people truly care about Barbara Gordon without the "Bat" name to propel her.

A lot of people care about Batgirl and especially Oracle. In fact, with the news about Whedon leaving, most of the comments I've seen from people have been about how they'd rather have Babs be Oracle.

Princess Shuri from Black Panther could probably carry her own film now, without needing to take the Black Panther identity.

And that's fantastic! But she had to appear and work in the BP film first. They didn't just decide to skip Black Panther and make a Shuri film from the start. Mera is set to co-lead Aquaman and could break out, as could other women who will be in upcoming DC films. If the MCU can have 10 years to build up their roster, then DC can too.

Marvel took a long time to have female and black leads, because the Marvel Entertainment CEO, Ike Perlmutter, was/is a notorious sexist and racist. Kevin Fiege still had to answer to this guy and he had to greenlight things, and female or black movie leads were not on Perlmutter's agenda. Feige managed to convince Disney to remove Perlmutter from the movie division, so Fiege could answer straight to Disney. And that's why we are now seeing Black Panther, and are going to see Captain Marvel and Black Widow. And possibly that all-female team of heroes that Tessa Thompson and Brie Larson a pushing Fiege for.

It's not an indictment on Marvel, but an indictment on Perlmutter, a virus that the Marvel film divison has gotten rid of.

Excuses. If I were to apply the same logic, then DC should be given just as much time to evolve, including time to feature more female characters and time to change leadership so that they can be more reliably successful in their output.

 

[Vlyse]

I don't see them (Supergirl, Batgirl, etc.) as derivative so much as them being legacy characters tbh and it's where a huge part of the interest in said characters lies for me.

That these characters were born of the aforementioned iconic identity but forged their own path and expanded their own mythos from out of the original's shadows. Batman and Superman aren't canonically immortal. They're not going to protect humanity forever. I'm interested in knowing who comes after them and takes over.

The DCAU kinda explored this with Batman Beyond, Young Justice took it even further (and will continue to do so in S3), and I think the DCEU could have a successful go at it as well.

 

[Flint Marko]

Excuses. If I were to apply the same logic, then DC should be given just as much time to evolve, including time to feature more female characters and time to change leadership so that they can be more reliably successful in their output.

I don't follow your logic. DC has been owned by WB for decades now and Marvel Studios is hardly a decade old. WB has always had way more time to make proper use of not just their female characters, but the DC library as a whole, and they haven't, with increasingly embarrassing results. So..... what point are you trying to make here?