All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 4

[ludovica]

TLJ is doing better with general audiences than Superman Returns, which got a pretty bad CinemaScore rating for a blockbuster. As I said in another thread, TLJ is more like an IM3 situation - Generally embraced by critics and audiences, but there's a decent sized portion of the devoted fanbase who are downright offended by it.

To me it looks like those minority portions on IM3 and TLJ are also quite overlapping.
I have my theory on their reasons but it's not pretty.

 

[Frodo]

TLJ is doing better with general audiences than Superman Returns, which got a pretty bad CinemaScore rating for a blockbuster. As I said in another thread, TLJ is more like an IM3 situation - Generally embraced by critics and audiences, but there's a decent sized portion of the devoted fanbase who are downright offended by it.

I'd disagree with IM3 as an analogy. IM3 was a success and audiences excepted it but its not as it was the very beloved thing embraced by the GA. It was disposable , it made money, but its not like you hear average filmgoers praising Ironman 3 year later.

I think its pretty early to make a definitive judgement of how the public views TLJ given its only been out a few days, but in terms of the initial star wars fan reaction its very much like Batman Returns and MOS.

 

[MadderMaximus]

TLJ is doing better with general audiences than Superman Returns, which got a pretty bad CinemaScore rating for a blockbuster. As I said in another thread, TLJ is more like an IM3 situation - Generally embraced by critics and audiences, but there's a decent sized portion of the devoted fanbase who are downright offended by it.

*nods*

The only bad scoring I've seen for TLJ so far is that audience score on RT. It's IMDB and Cinemascore ratings are pretty good, which is basically audience based.

 

[misslane38]

Bolded part means BvS is really bad. You know, legs.

General audience doesn't know who Simple Zack or Funny Whedon are.

Nah, people were skeptical of Wonder Woman too not only because it was WB, but also because it was the first female superhero with a female director. It had bad press, like people saying it was a mess for months before it came out. Yet, because the film was good, positive social media buzz was generated early and built until actual critic reviews and regular audience members confirmed it was good. Then, Wonder Woman had momentum and legs. Had JL been good, the director wouldn't have mattered a whole lot and the previous movie wouldn't have mattered a whole lot.

JL didn't do JL any favors but we saw how repulsed audiences were with BvS.

No one is questioning the bad audience reaction to BvS. You don't have to use JL's failure to further prove something about BvS that isn't in dispute and when there are other factors affecting JL's success that should be taken into account. So, yeah, people didn't like BvS. This is known. However, had JL been a much better movie, and they hadn't spent more money on reshoots that made it even harder to make a profit, then JL would have probably been able to defeat the ghost of BvS sufficiently. Because it wasn't good, the negative effect of BvS was exacerbated, and the loss of both money and pride was worse.

 

[ludovica]

Nah, people were skeptical of Wonder Woman...

What has any of it to do with my quotes?
I was talking of BvS...

 

[misslane38]

What has any of it to do with my quotes?
I was talking of BvS...

Because the skepticism BvS brought to the DCEU initially affected Wonder Woman, too. WW was able to overcome the impact of BvS because of good reviews and good word of mouth from the audience. The idea that BvS was too much of a dark cloud for JL to overcome doesn't quite work when WW did just fine under similar conditions. What saved WW was that it was a good film; JL could have been similarly successful. It was the quality of JL that ultimately led to its lackluster performance.

 

[ludovica]

Because the skepticism BvS brought to the DCEU initially affected Wonder Woman, too. WW was able to overcome the impact of BvS because of good reviews and good word of mouth from the audience. The idea that BvS was too much of a dark cloud for JL to overcome doesn't quite work when WW did just fine under similar conditions. What saved WW was that it was a good film; JL could have been similarly successful. It was the quality of JL that ultimately led to its lackluster performance.

And I exactly meant that BvS by your standards is a really bad movie: the people who saw it opening weekend made sure their friends and family did not make the same mistake.
Had it even in the least had something to give, that movie woudn't have had way worse legs than JL is having.

You seem to agree JL is an awful movie and the audience is behaving consequentially: what does this say about BvS?

 

[misslane38]

You seem to agree JL is an awful movie and the audience is behaving consequentially: what does this say about BvS?

I'm not making any subjective assessment of either film's quality. I'm making an argument about critical and audience response. It is not up for debate that BvS was poorly reviewed and poorly received by audiences. But I love BvS, and I think it is a good film. There are many fans who like JL; I don't. I'm not making personal arguments, however.

I'm only referring to the critical and audience response. We don't have to ask, "What does this say about X?" We already know the answer: Both BvS and JL were received as poor films by both critics and audiences. I am merely arguing that had JL not been poorly received, it would have been able to overcome the poor reception of BvS.

 

[ludovica]

I'm not making any subjective assessment of either film's quality. I'm making an argument about critical and audience response. It is not up for debate that BvS was poorly reviewed and poorly received by audiences. But I love BvS, and I think it is a good film. There are many fans who like JL; I don't. I'm not making personal arguments, however.

I'm only referring to the critical and audience response. We don't have to ask, "What does this say about X?" We already know the answer: Both BvS and JL were received as poor films by both critics and audiences. I am merely arguing that had JL not been poorly received, it would have been able to overcome the poor reception of BvS.

I disagree but fair enough.

 

[Superchan]

Are the Rotten Tomatoes critics out of touch with the Rotten Tomatoes audience or is the audience out of touch with the critics?

Justice League:
Critics 40% Audience 80%

Audience ratings mean next to nothing whether on RT or imdb. These ratings can be done by anyone who hasn't necessarily watched the movie and who can vote multiple times under different accounts.
A good (not perfect) judge of audience ratings is the box office legs.

They saw BvS. That was all they needed to see to be able to judge the probable quality of its sequel, and then stay away.

Agreed, the biggest culprit in the seeming demise of the DCEU is BvS, a movie that holds the dubious record of the worst multiplier for a 100 mill+ opening movie in history!!! The overwhelming majority of the audience absolutely HATED that movie to a degree that JL was DOA despite the good will generated by WW and batman being front and center in the marketing.

Snyder took a few cheap shots at Thor in the past yet how ironic that it is Thor who b***h slapped the conclusion to Snyder's 'epic' trilogy both critically and commercially. Hopefully he'll learn to be more respectful in the future and actually focus on attempting to make a good movie.

 

[ludovica]

Are the Rotten Tomatoes critics out of touch with the Rotten Tomatoes audience or is the audience out of touch with the critics?

Justice League:
Critics 40% Audience 80%

Star Wars: The Last Jedi
Certified Fresh Critics 93% Audience 56%, tipped popcorn tub

Audience ratings mean next to nothing whether on RT or imdb. These ratings can be done by anyone who hasn't necessarily watched the movie and who can vote multiple times under different accounts.
A good (not perfect) judge of audience ratings is the box office legs

It's starting to become clear some concerted shenanigans have been going on against the audience score of TLJ.
The culprits are the usual suspects, I'm not surprised in the least.

 

[Flint Marko]

I'm not making any subjective assessment of either film's quality. I'm making an argument about critical and audience response. It is not up for debate that BvS was poorly reviewed and poorly received by audiences. But I love BvS, and I think it is a good film. There are many fans who like JL; I don't. I'm not making personal arguments, however.

I'm only referring to the critical and audience response. We don't have to ask, "What does this say about X?" We already know the answer: Both BvS and JL were received as poor films by both critics and audiences. I am merely arguing that had JL not been poorly received, it would have been able to overcome the poor reception of BvS.

BvS opened up to huge, record-breaking numbers despite even worse reviews.

JL opened up to roughly half of that number. Audience's didn't even need to see JL to know to stay away, because BvS taught them everything they need to know. Had JL been received better with better reviews and better WOM it would certainly have made more, but I doubt the difference would be drastic enough to change the situation. The numbers are just too low.

 

[misslane38]

BvS opened up to huge, record-breaking numbers despite even worse reviews.

JL opened up to roughly half of that number. Audience's didn't even need to see JL to know to stay away, because BvS taught them everything they need to know. Had JL been received better with better reviews and better WOM it would certainly have made more, but I doubt the difference would be drastic enough to change the situation. The numbers are just too low.

Never argued BvS wouldn't have factored into JL's ultimate success, only that it wouldn't have been an insurmountable barrier to some measure of positive critical reception, audience reception, and box office. It would be better off than it is now, regardless of the BvS effect, if the film had been well received by audiences and critics. Plus, there are a lot of other elements to consider when evaluating JL, including competition from Thor, Coco, and Star Wars.

Let me just flip around your logic for a moment. Had JL been a success, would you be arguing that it was proof that, despite negative reviews, BvS was a good film that audiences embraced? No, you wouldn't make that argument. It is a post hoc fallacy. Using JL as a litmus test for the "truth" about BvS is spurious and fallacious when there are countless other factors to consider. The numbers are low, but to argue the fundamental blame for those low numbers rests with BvS above all else doesn't work. It's a flimsy opinion and an unprovable fact.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

JL is doing bad at the box office. Production costs were about $300 million plus marketing and others. The fact it barely made $200 million in three weeks is bad. Its said to make a little above $600 million at the end. JL is performing poorly at the box office no matter how you slice it.

 

[Power Cosmic]

JL is doing bad at the box office. Production costs were about $300 million plus marketing and others. The fact it barely made $200 million in three weeks is bad. Its said to make a little above $600 million at the end. JL is performing poorly at the box office no matter how you slice it.

Yes, it's a flop.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Reports coming in that Mathew Vaughn has sat down 'officially' with WB and has been talking over multiple productions and ways forward with the DCEU.

 

[BH/HHH]

Back the money truck up to Vaughn's house, give him Superman and watch the Man of Steel soar!

 

[brandeezy89]

He also said that he likes working on Franchises that aren't doing well because it's less pressure for him to make a good movie since the bar is so low. Also that he would be more nervous directing a sequel to GOTG.

 

[STARMAN]

Vaughn has a tendency to talk a big game. Lets see if he takes the plunge or not.

 

[I Am The Knight]

He also said that he likes working on Franchises that aren't doing well because it's less pressure for him to make a good movie since the bar is so low. Also that he would be more nervous directing a sequel to GOTG.

Then the DCEU is perfect for him!

 

[brandeezy89]

Then the DCEU is perfect for him!

Lol that's why he said he wants to do it

 

[Flint Marko]

Matthew Vaughn is exactly what this universe needs. Regardless of what he's directing (please be Superman please be Superman) I'd be on board. He's one of the best directors currently making genre films and I'm positive he'd knock if out of the park.

I know there are people who think his sensibilities wouldn't fit with a lot of DC characters, namely Superman, but I'd point to the simple fact that he was able to crank out the best X-men proper film in a tumultuous, rushed production and made it look easy. The guy is the real deal and the DCEU would be lucky to have him.

Never argued BvS wouldn't have factored into JL's ultimate success, only that it wouldn't have been an insurmountable barrier to some measure of positive critical reception, audience reception, and box office. It would be better off than it is now, regardless of the BvS effect, if the film had been well received by audiences and critics. Plus, there are a lot of other elements to consider when evaluating JL, including competition from Thor, Coco, and Star Wars.

Let me just flip around your logic for a moment. Had JL been a success, would you be arguing that it was proof that, despite negative reviews, BvS was a good film that audiences embraced? No, you wouldn't make that argument. It is a post hoc fallacy. Using JL as a litmus test for the "truth" about BvS is spurious and fallacious when there are countless other factors to consider. The numbers are low, but to argue the fundamental blame for those low numbers rests with BvS above all else doesn't work. It's a flimsy opinion and an unprovable fact.

My opinion is as "flimsy and unprovable" as yours. We're debating hypotheticals.

It's fine if you don't believe me, but there are two things I can hang my hat on that display a clear pattern: BvS' abysmal box office legs and, above all else, JL's abysmal opening. JL opened to half of what BvS did even though BvS had a worse reception that didn't benefit from RT hiding the consensus. Audience's scurried away from Snyder's vision in BvS' second weekend and clearly JL didn't bring them back for more. That's the pattern I'm seeing.

Obviously a lot of factors played into JL flopping and I'm not denying that for a second. But the big two, in my opinion, were BvS and JL's terrible marketing. Those trailers screamed "wait for me on Redbox" and BvS' terrible reception was always going to linger. Put those two together and this movie was sunk well before opening weekend.

 

[misslane38]

Obviously a lot of factors played into JL flopping and I'm not denying that for a second. But the big two, in my opinion, were BvS and JL's terrible marketing. Those trailers screamed "wait for me on Redbox" and BvS' terrible reception was always going to linger. Put those two together and this movie was sunk well before opening weekend.

No one, including me has ever argued the effect of BvS wouldn't linger, but only sought to argue that it was JL itself that determined whether the effect would always have led to JL "flopping." I do not believe there is any evidence to suggest that JL would have flopped due to the lingering effects of BvS if it had been embraced by critics and enough of the audiences to generate positive buzz. JL doomed itself.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Yeah JL felt like a “let’s just release this and get it done with” movie. Just a movie to be released just because it was made. Compare that with the Avengers Infinity War trailer. That felt epic, that felt larger than life. That was exciting. I felt nothing like that when watching the JL trailer and that’s sad.

 

[Flint Marko]

No one, including me has ever argued the effect of BvS wouldn't linger, but only sought to argue that it was JL itself that determined whether the effect would always have led to JL "flopping." I do not believe there is any evidence to suggest that JL would have flopped due to the lingering effects of BvS if it had been embraced by critics and enough of the audiences to generate positive buzz. JL doomed itself.

Except I have already presented you evidence that supports my viewpoint, you just don't want to address it for some reason.

BvS had a worse reception, and opened up to 166 million.

JL had a bad, but not as bad reception, and opened up to roughly half of that despite coming off the DCEU's only runaway success in Wonder Woman.

Ignore it all you'd like, that only reaffirms my opinion.