All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation - Part 4

[misslane38]

Except I have already presented you evidence that supports my viewpoint, you just don't want to address it for some reason.

BvS had a worse reception, and opened up to 166 million.

JL had a bad, but not as bad reception, and opened up to roughly half of that despite coming off the DCEU's only runaway success in Wonder Woman.

Ignore it all you'd like, that only reaffirms my opinion.

You did not present any evidence. You cannot present evidence to support a claim that BvS would have made JL a flop regardless of its reception from critics and early word of mouth. Evidence of a hypothetical do not exist. JL opened up to roughly half of WW because, unlike WW, JL did not have a month of positive buzz from critics and audiences. To argue JL's bad reception hinged on BvS rather than its own quality doesn't make a lick of sense. JL's bad reception compounded the effect of BvS; it validated the skepticism of the audience. You cannot presume that had JL been positively received, we would have seen the same result.

 

[Limonade]

Yeah JL felt like a “let’s just release this and get it done with” movie. Just a movie to be released just because it was made. Compare that with the Avengers Infinity War trailer. That felt epic, that felt larger than life. That was exciting. I felt nothing like that when watching the JL trailer and that’s sad.

WB/DC were in a weird position honestly.

On one hand the movie was almost unsalvageable and was at best Frakenstein'd together. The material produced was a tough sell.

On the other hand, they had a cast and a recognizable IP that alone can garner big money.

It's interesting to see how WB released this movie and did everything in their power to keep this from falling to pieces.

In all, JL could have been worse--a lot worse, if WB played their hand poorly.

In all we have maybe one more month or two where JL will be talked about--maybe winning some raspberry awards. And it'll die similarly like Batman & Robin.

 

[Flint Marko]

You did not present any evidence.

You cannot present evidence to support a claim that BvS would have made JL a flop regardless of its reception from critics and early word of mouth.

Evidence of a hypothetical do not exist. JL opened up to roughly half of WW because, unlike WW, JL did not have a month of positive buzz from critics and audiences.

No... I'm talking about BvS.

BvS opened up to almost double what JL did with worse reviews and even more time to let those reviews spread.

WW had an entire month of positive WOM and still only grossed 10 million more than JL did it's opening weekend.

To argue JL's bad reception hinged on BvS rather than its own quality doesn't make a lick of sense. JL's bad reception compounded the effect of BvS; it validated the skepticism of the audience. You cannot presume that had JL been positively received, we would have seen the same result.

No, I'm the only one continually pointing to actual numbers and box office patterns to prove my point. Don't tell me what does or doesn't "make a lick of sense" if you're the one in this conversation talking around the numbers and facts presented.

JL made less opening weekend than every single DCEU film and all but 5 MCU films.

This movie opened low before WOM had a chance to spread. Audience's had already decided how they felt about it.

You can pretend that a better reception would have led it to make hundreds of millions more than it has now to somehow change the narrative around this movie.... but we all know that's a pipe dream, particularly with this competition and this insanely high budget.

JL was doomed the second audiences saw BvS. The proof is in the pudding, and I'm the only one bringing any proof to this debate.

 

[UltimatePyro9]

Personally, I thought the DCEU or whatever the WB decides to call whatever that is, was doomed after BVS and the aftermath. I'll admit I didn't like Man of Steel, but there was some merit to it. BvS was where I gave up on Snyder's vision. I saw it, hated even more than MOS and it went downhill from there (though I did like Wonder Woman). Everything (except for Wonder Woman) was a complete mess. DC needs to do better.

 

[misslane38]

Flint Marko, I think you've made a few errors in your argument based on arguing against things that were never claimed. My argument isn't about opening weekend gross, but overall gross. Pointing out what Wonder Woman made its opening weekend is beside the point, because what ultimately made Wonder Woman a success was its legs due to positive buzz, not a giant opening weekend.

My point has always been that, had JL been as well-reviewed with earlier good social media buzz as Wonder Woman, then I think it would have been able to overcome people's understandable skepticism from BvS and become more successful than it is now. I haven't made any claims about how much more successful it would be in dollars and cents, so to speak, but I do think that a better reviewed JL film would have been more successful in the long term than the current JL.

Like I said before, turn your logic around. If a well-reviewed JL had been successful overall, would you think it fair to claim that it's proof that BvS was actually not that disliked? No, you wouldn't. With JL as is, the fact that it was almost equally badly reviewed as BvS exacerbated the BvS effect. However, as I've been saying, if JL had been liked by critics and audiences, I believe that that BvS effect could have been surmounted to some extent in the course of the movie's entire theatrical run.

I don't think you need to use JL's failure to continue to prove an unnecessary point about BvS's reception. It was badly received, and that's indisputable. However, it wasn't a poison without any antidote. If JL had been well-received by critics and viewers, it could have won people over who had been holding out on buying their tickets. I don't disagree that BvS could and did depress sales both in pre-sales and opening weekend. All I'm saying is that, eventually, with positive buzz, those who had been cautious about the movie might have checked it out once critics and fellow viewers assured them that it would be okay.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

I guess the next big test is Aquaman. If it does as well as Wonder Woman I'd say WB is on the right track. If it does as poorly as Justice League just scrap everything DC related and concentrate on other franchises like
horror and fantasy, and historical dramas. Maybe just trickle out a few proven successes like Wonder Woman 2. But otherwise give comic book movies a rest for a few years until people have forgotten about the DCEU.

 

[Jekecy]

All I'm saying is that, eventually, with positive buzz, those who had been cautious about the movie might have checked it out once critics and fellow viewers assured them that it would be okay.

Even if all those previous (and frankly impossibly ideal) conditions were met, time was not on its side. Once TLJ hits, it's game over. It never had WW's path to a slow and momentous run. Not with Star Wars looming nearby.

 

[misslane38]

Even if all those previous (and frankly impossibly ideal) conditions were met, time was not on its side. Once TLJ hits, it's game over. It never had WW's path to a slow and momentous run. Not with Star Wars looming nearby.

All of which are factors that lie outside the influence of BvS. That's the ONLY point I have ever been making. I am disputing the claim that BvS is the sole and most significant factor responsible for JL's fate. There are plenty of factors exclusive to JL itself that affected its success.

 

[Jekecy]

All of which are factors that lie outside the influence of BvS. That's the ONLY point I have ever been making. I am disputing the claim that BvS is the sole and most significant factor responsible for JL's fate. There are plenty of factors exclusive to JL itself that affected its success.

Masses "waiting it out" in your ideal scenario is a direct result of BvS. There is no such thing as a slow-build for a JL film unless situations have been very dire.

Since we're exploring hypothetical alternative realities, I pose this:

• MOS, BvS, and WW don't exist. JL is the start of the DCEU, much like originally intended by WB 10 years ago.
• Everything else in the production remains the same. The gossip, the turmoil, the controlling studio, the directorial switch. The Whedon/WB cut exists as is.

Do you think it still does as poorly as it is now? My gut tells me the cinematic debut of the JL is critic AND audience proof, if they're hitting it out the gate with no preconceptions.


I imagine a turnout very similar to BvS; financially underwhelming for its potential, but overwhelming for the product which was so reviled.

 

[misslane38]

Masses "waiting it out" in your ideal scenario is a direct result of BvS. There is no such thing as a slow-build for a JL film unless situations have been very dire.

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. Not only am I not disputing that BvS put JL in a dire situation, but I am also not disputing that BvS was not a factor in the success of JL. What I am disputing is the idea that the negative and dire effects of BvS would have ultimately doomed ANY version of JL, including a critically acclaimed and popular film that built positive buzz with the audience over time.

Since we're exploring hypothetical alternative realities, I pose this:

• MOS, BvS, and WW don't exist. JL is the start of the DCEU, much like originally intended by WB 10 years ago.
• Everything else in the production remains the same. The gossip, the turmoil, the controlling studio, the directorial switch. The Whedon/WB cut exists as is.

Do you think it still does as poorly as it is now? My gut tells me the cinematic debut of the JL is critic AND audience proof, if they're hitting it out the gate with no preconceptions.

Yes, I do think it does as poorly. If the resulting film remains the same and its quality remains the same, I do think it would have done poorly with critics and audiences.

I imagine a turnout very similar to BvS; financially underwhelming for its potential, but overwhelming for the product which was so reviled.

Sounds about right to me. But I have no idea what this has to do with the argument I'm making about JL, which would have been in the reverse scenario. It would have to build word of mouth over time to be successful. When I say successful, I don't mean a financial juggernaut or record breaker. I'm talking about JL doing better than it is doing now, and at least better enough to make some kind of profit for WB.

 

[Jekecy]

Yes, I do think it does as poorly. If the resulting film remains the same and its quality remains the same, I do think it would have done poorly with critics and audiences.

Sounds about right to me. But I have no idea what this has to do with the argument I'm making about JL, which would have been in the reverse scenario. It would have to build word of mouth over time to be successful. When I say successful, I don't mean a financial juggernaut or record breaker. I'm talking about JL doing better than it is doing now, and at least better enough to make some kind of profit for WB.

You're agreeing to different outcomes as I've presented them. JL pulling in BvS numbers isn't the categorical failure that it currently is now.

If a hypothetical (DCEU debuting) JL film does much better than what we have now with the same exact content and negative press, your claim that (this) JL has failed on its own merits is null and void.

 

[BH/HHH]

Matthew Vaughn is exactly what this universe needs. Regardless of what he's directing (please be Superman please be Superman) I'd be on board. He's one of the best directors currently making genre films and I'm positive he'd knock if out of the park.

I know there are people who think his sensibilities wouldn't fit with a lot of DC characters, namely Superman, but I'd point to the simple fact that he was able to crank out the best X-men proper film in a tumultuous, rushed production and made it look easy. The guy is the real deal and the DCEU would be lucky to have him.

For once you and I agree on something

 

[Superchan]

JL's poor reception played a huge factor in it's demise, however the colossal piece of s*** that is Snyder's BvS killed any chance of JL being a runaway success regardless of whether JL was a brilliant film or not.
Look it at this way even if JL's brilliance was on par with TDK and Avengers and the film did a 3.5X multiplier (TDK's multiplier) the movie would've still ended up making less that SS and BvS, which is a huge disappointment for a JL movie. Ofcourse the fact that the movie was received so badly has led to it being the major boxoffice flop that it is and all thanks to WB's incompetence in hiring snyder and continuing to give him chance after chance and then killing any chance of JL being a better movie by rushing the film to theaters so the rich execs can get their bonuses.

Matt Vaughn on superman would be the best thing to happen to the character since Donner, Reeve and STAS! There I said it!

 

[misslane38]

You're agreeing to different outcomes as I've presented them. JL pulling in BvS numbers isn't the categorical failure that it currently is now.

That wasn't the scenario you presented. You presented a scenario in which a JL with no prior DCEU films preceding it would have performed as well as it is performing right now. We're comparing the JL that exists with MoS, BvS, SS, and WW to a JL that exists without those films. I concluded that both films would have produced the same results.

If a hypothetical (DCEU debuting) JL film does much better than what we have now with the same exact content and negative press, your claim that (this) JL has failed on its own merits is null and void.

But I didn't agree a DCEU debuting JL film would do much better than what we have now. I agreed that it would have done as well as the real JL is doing right now. If I think the same product would produce the same results regardless of what does or does not precede it, then I am very much arguing that JL is responsible for its own success and failure. I was not talking numbers or bottom line but was speaking to the dynamic you described of a film that underperformed based on its potential and overperformed based on its reception. I was not agreeing that a DCEU debuting JL would have made as much money as BvS.

Look, there's no need to overcomplicate this. If I pose a simple question, "If JL had been critically acclaimed, would it have been more successful than the version that is in theaters now?" My answer would be "Yes." That answer tells me that BvS isn't the trump card or deciding factor when it comes to JL's success. If I pose another question, "If JL had been successful, does that mean BvS was actually well-liked by audiences?" My answer would be "No." Again, because JL's success would be something that is ultimately determined most by its own reception from critics and viewers.

To add another wrinkle, I hypothesize that a Snyder cut of JL would have been more profitable (this means altogether with total gross and total budget considered) than the current version, because at least extra money wouldn't have been spent, bad press wouldn't have happened as much, and Snyder fans might have been more satisfied. I don't think it would have done substantially better than what JL is currently doing, but I do think it would have done better.

Finally, if it's believed that BvS doomed ANY version of JL to its current fate, and that is something anyone thinks was a foregone conclusion even before JL was reviewed and released, then there is no scenario in which the film should have ever been made let alone had extra money spent on retooling it in what you're all describing as a futile effort.

 

[Flint Marko]

Flint Marko, I think you've made a few errors in your argument based on arguing against things that were never claimed. My argument isn't about opening weekend gross, but overall gross.

I'm well aware. However the opening weekend is what proves my point: BvS made JL open so low that it'd be nigh impossible for this film to ever truly succeed.

My point has always been that, had JL been as well-reviewed with earlier good social media buzz as Wonder Woman, then I think it would have been able to overcome people's understandable skepticism from BvS and become more successful than it is now. I haven't made any claims about how much more successful it would be in dollars and cents, so to speak, but I do think that a better reviewed JL film would have been more successful in the long term than the current JL.

You said this and used the word "flop". That's basically making a claim about how much more successful it would be:

I do not believe there is any evidence to suggest that JL would have flopped due to the lingering effects of BvS if it had been embraced by critics and enough of the audiences to generate positive buzz. JL doomed itself.

The opening weekend is the evidence.

This movie was doomed from the beginning. With that price tag, this amount of competition, and the amount of baggage from BvS, JL never stood a chance at making money. It would need to have made hundreds of millions more than it has now to change the narrative and you don't get that amount of money so easily in a franchise this damaged no matter how good the film is.

The opening weekend is a clear indicator that, despite your insistence otherwise, JL would have had a near impossible uphill battle regardless of it's quality. It certainly would have made more, I've never denied that, but not enough to change the narrative surrounding this film. That's my entire point.

A variety of factors caused this movie to fail, but none loom larger than BvS' toxic reception. And the opening weekend number is all the proof I need.

Like I said before, turn your logic around. If a well-reviewed JL had been successful overall, would you think it fair to claim that it's proof that BvS was actually not that disliked? No, you wouldn't. With JL as is, the fact that it was almost equally badly reviewed as BvS exacerbated the BvS effect. However, as I've been saying, if JL had been liked by critics and audiences, I believe that that BvS effect could have been surmounted to some extent in the course of the movie's entire theatrical run.

All I'm saying is that, eventually, with positive buzz, those who had been cautious about the movie might have checked it out once critics and fellow viewers assured them that it would be okay.

Haven't the legs on JL actually been pretty decent, all things considered? It appears that some modicum of positive buzz already does exist. It's just not anywhere close enough to make a dent. See what I mean?

 

[FunkMiller]

Haven't the legs on JL actually been pretty decent, all things considered? It appears that some modicum of positive buzz already does exist. It's just not anywhere close enough to make a dent. See what I mean?

Justice League’s multiplier is 2.52.

Batman v Superman’s multiplier was 1.99.

Justice League’s opening weekend was terrible, but it’s picked up a little steam once word got around that it wasn’t as awful as its prequel.

All the evidence is SCREAMING that Justice League was crippled by the reception to Batman v Superman. That is the main reason for its failure.

 

[chamber-music]

Man of Steel and Wonder Women I liked but I really disliked Suicide Squad and BvS. I was not willing to gamble on seeing JL unless is had positive word of mouth. The word of mouth seemed to be it was average at best so I decided not to see it.

 

[Flint Marko]

Justice League’s multiplier is 2.52.

Batman v Superman’s multiplier was 1.99.

Justice League’s opening weekend was terrible, but it’s picked up a little steam once word got around that it wasn’t as awful as its prequel.

All the evidence is SCREAMING that Justice League was crippled by the reception to Batman v Superman. That is the main reason for its failure.

2.52 is a better multiplier than I would have thought.

Yup, this is an open and shut case. BvS doomed JL.

 

[Jonwo]

I guess the next big test is Aquaman. If it does as well as Wonder Woman I'd say WB is on the right track. If it does as poorly as Justice League just scrap everything DC related and concentrate on other franchises like
horror and fantasy, and historical dramas. Maybe just trickle out a few proven successes like Wonder Woman 2. But otherwise give comic book movies a rest for a few years until people have forgotten about the DCEU.

WB won't rest DC films, it's too much of a cash cow and they're usually one of the top grossing films for them in any given year not to mention they already have projects in development or already to film like Shazam.

 

[misslane38]

2.52 is a better multiplier than I would have thought.

Yup, this is an open and shut case. BvS doomed JL.

It really isn't. BvS doomed this version of JL, which I acknowledged in previous posts, but it would not have doomed a well-reviewed JL that had month of positive buzz leading into its opening weekend. Your opening weekend evidence is based off of a version of the film that did not get good reviews. Even the multiplier is based off of this version of the film that earned a lackluster response from audiences. Imagine the multiplier had the film been certified fresh.

 

[Erzengel]

I look at Batman Begins after Batman and Robin, Spider-Man: Homecoming after TASM series and First Class after Wolverine Origins. All movies considered to be heads and shoulders over their predecessors but even Homecoming as well as it did, still didn't reach the levels of of some of the top grossing MCU films.

Even a better received JL, may have only been a stepping stone to a better grossing superior sequel. See TDK, DOFP and we'll see with Spider-Man's sequel.

 

[misslane38]

I look at Batman Begins after Batman and Robin, Spider-Man: Homecoming after TASM series and First Class after Wolverine Origins. All movies considered to be heads and shoulders over their predecessors but even Homecoming as well as it did, still didn't reach the levels of of some of the top grossing MCU films.

Even a better received JL, may have only been a stepping stone to a better grossing superior sequel. See TDK, DOFP and we'll see with Spider-Man's sequel.

Which is why I have never argued a well-received JL would have been free of any impact from BvS. I have only ever argued that a well-received version of JL could have overcome that negative effect enough to garner some measure of success beyond the current abysmal performance of the film.

 

[Erzengel]

I guess it depends what the measurement for success is quantified as.

Is it in just critical or fan acceptance or general audience support?

 

[chamber-music]

Aquaman's production budget is $160 million which should make it easier to turn a profit (providing WB doesn't go spending crazy on the marketing).

If it gets a decent word of mouth from critics or general audiences then I think it will do ok. Wan and Momoa have already been talking up how different the portrayal and tone of the Aquaman is compared to Justice League.

 

[Erzengel]

Personally I'd consider $650-$700 a success for Aquaman.