All Things DCEU News, Discussion, and Speculation

[Timebomb]

Surprised it took Ayer this long to come out and admit the flaws.



Exactly. If THAT version in SS was the main villain, it would have been just as insufferable. However if they rewrite the character, change his visual look, and Leto improves his performance, then I welcome a proper version of the Joker as the main villain with open arms.

Yup. And let the performance do its thing. No need to edit it to try and force the whole "look it's the Joker and he is crazy" thing.

 

[misslane38]

Exactly. If THAT version in SS was the main villain, it would have been just as insufferable. However if they rewrite the character, change his visual look, and Leto improves his performance, then I welcome a proper version of the Joker as the main villain with open arms.

It would make no sense. Why wouldn't Batman get involved? How would it make him look if he didn't participate? What would it say if he couldn't defeat Joker, because he escaped his capture after escaping prison and he killed Jason Todd, and that it takes a team to deal with him? Doesn't it suggest that Batman can't defeat Joker? How would it have worked as a follow up to BvS, given that SS's use of Enchantress focused on the rise of metahumans and the question of what happens when the world or other countries have their own metas or supermen who don't have Superman's values?

 

[MbJ]

It would make no sense. Why wouldn't Batman get involved?

"Heard Batman is still dealing with that massive riot at Arkham. Not sure if he'll be able to make it." There's a billion ways you could write in a Batman absence. This version of Joker sucks so it's moot anyway though. But you could absolutely do a Suicide Squad movie with a non-sucky Joker as the villain.

 

[Boom]

I'm not really interested in seeing the Suicide Squad take on the Joker either.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

Yeah he should've went with his grounded version but what's done is done, at least he owned up to it

https://***********/DavidAyerMovies/status/822948443110842369

Interesting for comparison here is Zack Snyder in response to BVS criticism

“I’m a comic book guy and I made the movie based as much as I could on that aesthetic. And so I don’t know how else to do it 100%, so it is what it is,” he said.

 

[The Joker]

It would make no sense. Why wouldn't Batman get involved? How would it make him look if he didn't participate? What would it say if he couldn't defeat Joker, because he escaped his capture after escaping prison and he killed Jason Todd, and that it takes a team to deal with him? Doesn't it suggest that Batman can't defeat Joker? How would it have worked as a follow up to BvS, given that SS's use of Enchantress focused on the rise of metahumans and the question of what happens when the world or other countries have their own metas or supermen who don't have Superman's values?

It would make perfect sense. There's a plethora of reasons why Batman can't be actively involved every time a major threat pops up. He's out of the country, he's actively dealing with another case etc.

There's dozens of comics where Joker popped up and was taken down by other heroes, including Robin all by himself, with no involvement from Batman because he wasn't available for some reason or another.

Interesting for comparison here is Zack Snyder in response to BVS criticism

“I’m a comic book guy and I made the movie based as much as I could on that aesthetic. And so I don’t know how else to do it 100%, so it is what it is,” he said.

He's a hundred times more classy than Snyder in responding to criticisms. Though that's not hard when Snyder makes childish comments like "They don't like that I grew up their character".

 

[idiot09]

Interesting for comparison here is Zack Snyder in response to BVS criticism

“I’m a comic book guy and I made the movie based as much as I could on that aesthetic. And so I don’t know how else to do it 100%, so it is what it is,” he said.

He also said this :

"But I do think that, for me, it’s been amazingly rewarding to work with these characters, because I just love stuff. I love the material, and for me it is personal, a really personal movie. You know, when Batman v Superman first came out, I was like, “Wow, okay, woof.” It did catch me off-guard. I kind of felt like – and I have had to, in my mind, make an adjustment, and maybe it is my hardcore take on characters as far as I love ’em, and I love the material. I do, I take it really deep. So I think the nice thing about working on Justice League is that it is an opportunity to really blow the doors off of the scale and the bad guys and team-building and all the stuff that I think I could justify as a big, modern comic book movie, if that makes any sense."

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I am. I'm not the one challenging everyone to quantify why they dislike a movie I like.

OK, this has nothing to do with me but MbJ there is no need to be so aggressive. Asking someone to elaborate on their opinion is a good way to get a better understanding of their point of view. MissLane especially does this not to force people to defend themselves but to gather more information on why they see things the way they do.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

3 movies in and I Do think DC needs to stop with the apocalyptic events, especially when dealing with a group like The Suicide Squad. Enchantress should have been part of the squad and they should have been more focused on covert human level villains. They may have had El Diablo but it's ridiculous to think this group could take down such a big villain.

 

[BaelaTargaryen]

He's a hundred times more classy than Snyder in responding to criticisms. Though that's not hard when Snyder makes childish comments like "They don't like that I grew up their character".

Ayer even liked a bunch of negative tweets about himself and SS.

https://***********/DavidAyerMovies/likes

 

[Consona]

SS SPOILERS

Spoiler

I'm so sad Enchantress is dead, design-wise she was absolutely fantastic. Maybe they could bring her and Diablo back to life somehow?

OK, this has nothing to do with me but MbJ there is no need to be so aggressive. Asking someone to elaborate on their opinion is a good way to get a better understanding of their point of view. MissLane especially does this not to force people to defend themselves but to gather more information on why they see things the way they do.

+1

 

[StarWars]

3 movies in and I Do think DC needs to stop with the apocalyptic events, especially when dealing with a group like The Suicide Squad. Enchantress should have been part of the squad and they should have been more focused on covert human level villains. They may have had El Diablo but it's ridiculous to think this group could take down such a big villain.

Absolutely....The apocalyptic story line will appear in EVERY DC movie because they don't have the talent to write anything unique and compelling.

Ant-Man was brilliant because it was a heist movie. I dont think Spider-Man Homecoming will be a apocalyptic movie. You save that for Avengers w/ Thanos. That is when you blow your load.

But with DC.....jesus.....Batman vs. Superman should have been a small personal film of Batman fighting Superman for personal reasons, but they just couldn't help themselves, throwing Doomsday in there.

Then Suicide Squad made no sense, it felt completely out of place in the already damaged DC Universe.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

My quick analysis from Snyder vs Ayer in response to criticism

Snyder seems to believe that BVS/MOS criticism comes from people not liking his interpretation of the characters. How he made them "to hardcore" for some fans.

Vs Ayer who mentions that there where actual plot issues with Suicide Squad. Like how the Enchantress villain, and the end of the world conflict should not have been used.

 

[2kt09]

My quick analysis from Snyder vs Ayer in response to criticism

Snyder seems to believe that BVS/MOS criticism comes from people not liking his interpretation of the characters. How he made them "to hardcore"

Vs Ayer who mentions that there where actual plot issues with Suicide Squad. Like how the Enchantress villain, and the end of the world plot should not have been used.

Should be flipped from the way I see it.
Though for Ayer it's not because he made them "too hardcore"
Moreso on the dialogue dispensed by his characters.

 

[MbJ]

OK, this has nothing to do with me...

 

[Consona]

He did a right thing, IMO. Misslane38's request was not something nonsensical or whatever, she wanted to discuss the problem more deeply, what's wrong with that? I like when people use this forum more like a forum and less as a two sentences chat.

 

[The Joker]

Consona, you get offended when people use the word crap on this forum. So seeing you lecture about what is good forum etiquette is rather humorous.

 

[idiot09]

My quick analysis from Snyder vs Ayer in response to criticism

Snyder seems to believe that BVS/MOS criticism comes from people not liking his interpretation of the characters. How he made them "to hardcore" for some fans.

Vs Ayer who mentions that there where actual plot issues with Suicide Squad. Like how the Enchantress villain, and the end of the world conflict should not have been used.

Snyder always states he makes his movies for himself, so that there is no second guessing. He makes movies that are personal to him. I genuinely believe he really likes the movies he makes, and I dont think if he does, he should apologise to anyone for it. I dont think an artist should be answerable to anyone, least of all fanboys.

And everyone who works with Snyder, EVERYONE, cants stop gushing about him, about how much of a nice guy he is. Doesnt seem like a attitude thing for me, more of a "I like the movies I made and I hope you liked them if not, thats a sad thing, but i aint gonna apologise for it".

 

[idiot09]

OK, this has nothing to do with me but MbJ there is no need to be so aggressive. Asking someone to elaborate on their opinion is a good way to get a better understanding of their point of view. MissLane especially does this not to force people to defend themselves but to gather more information on why they see things the way they do.

He did a right thing, IMO. Misslane38's request was not something nonsensical or whatever, she wanted to discuss the problem more deeply, what's wrong with that? I like when people use this forum more like a forum and less as a two sentences chat.

 

[The Joker]

Snyder always states he makes his movies for himself, so that there is no second guessing. He makes movies that are personal to him. I genuinely believe he really likes the movies he makes, and I dont think if he does, he should apologise to anyone for it. I dont think an artist should be answerable to anyone, least of all fanboys.

I think that's a load of bull. Directors are supposed to be making these movies for audiences. They are supposed to be appealing to the masses. Who does he think these movies are catered towards? He may well like the movies he makes, but so what? He is too immature to handle the righteous criticism he gets over them.

That's the stark difference here between Ayer and Snyder. Ayer says he put a lot of effort into SS, and loved making it, but he knows he made mistakes, that there is a lot of hate out there for it. He recognizes that he didn't succeed in appealing to his target audience as much as he should. Whereas Snyder responds by dismissing people's criticisms with childish claims like "They don't like that I grew up their character".

 

[MbJ]

He did a right thing, IMO.

I forgot there was a forum police here dedicated to making sure all film criticism is in the forum of an academically cited essay.

Hoping my thesis on why BVS is the worst thing to happen to film since Good Luck Chuck finally gets me that doctorate I've been after.

 

[idiot09]

I think that's a load of bull. Directors are supposed to be making these movies for audiences. They are supposed to be appealing to the masses. Who does he think these movies are catered towards?

He may well like the movies he makes, but so what? He is too immature to handle the righteous criticism he gets over them.

The movies are for audiences. But if a director thinks "Should I do this because the audience will like it, or will the audience like that" then thats a dangerous thing, because you start second guessing. A valid approach is to make the movie that you would want to see.

And I dont believe he cant handle criticism. Tarsem Singh, a fellow director and a guy he went to college with had this to say about him :

Q : You mentioned the rarity of being wrong. Can you look at your work pretty objectively, knowing when something isn’t working?
A: Yeah, I don’t think I’m too precious. You know one person who was always the best at that? Zack Snyder. When we were in school he would give everything to something, and when he’d finish it and got ****, he’d say, “Right, okay, next project!”

 

[Consona]

Consona, you get offended when people use the word crap on this forum. So seeing you lecture about what is good forum etiquette is rather humorous.

And how are those two things mutually exclusive?

 

[The Joker]

The movies are for audiences. But if a director thinks "Should I do this because the audience will like it, or will the audience like that" then thats a dangerous thing, because you start second guessing. A valid approach is to make the movie that you would want to see.

That's not what I'm saying. You never do something just because you think your audience wants it. When that happens you get a Venom in Spider-Man 3 type scenario. What you're claiming is Snyder makes movies for himself, and is not keeping his audience in mind. A good director carries out his own vision but at the same time remembers that he is also making this for audiences, not himself.

And I dont believe he cant handle criticism. Tarsem Singh, a fellow director and a guy he went to college with had this to say about him :

Q : You mentioned the rarity of being wrong. Can you look at your work pretty objectively, knowing when something isn’t working?
A: Yeah, I don’t think I’m too precious. You know one person who was always the best at that? Zack Snyder. When we were in school he would give everything to something, and when he’d finish it and got ****, he’d say, “Right, okay, next project!”

I don't care what Tarsem Singh says. Snyder's ability to handle criticisms has not showed through in any outlet I have ever seen. That's all that counts. What we see in his responses to it, not what someone else telling us hearsay from knowing him years ago. Snyder could well have changed since his school days, and judging by his responses to criticism towards his movies, he has.

And how are those two things mutually exclusive?

Because you're lecturing MBJ about his response to another poster challenging him on his opinions, when you get irritated and offended at a harmless word like crap being used by other people. You're not in any position to be telling people what is ok to be bothered by on this forum when an Administrator had to step in and tell you that you're wrong to be getting so offended at a harmless word like crap.

 

[Consona]

I like what Alan Moore said:

It is not the job of artists to give the audience what the audience want.

Idea that artist should provoke and shake their audience's world-views, no to pander to them.

Because you're lecturing MBJ about his response to another poster challenging him on his opinions, when you get irritated and offended at a harmless word like crap being used by other people.

That swearing was not harmless, it was meant as an insult.