All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - Part 81

[souperman]

edit

 

[Pickle-El]

I wonder if that guy from the Philippines who had plastic surgery to look like Brandon Routh from SR, went a little incognito this time around?

True Story. Somone did that.

 

[Bruce Malone]

I don't think it's a rudimentary problem as much as it is a societal issue, I mean look at superheroes like Iron Man and Batman. Why are they consistently popular? Because they are flawed heroes, and that's perfect for our cynical society, as paradoxical as it sounds.

Superman (as source material) is a reflection of all good that is possible within us, but our mainstream society refuses to accept it because it believes that no one is capable of being that good without ulterior motives. Moreover, you have the superhuman element, which only furthers the ability to relate to him (not that I agree, especially with isolation, outsiders, coming-of-age, and finding a place in an new world are key themes).

That's sort of my point. People love the flawed hero's, sometime the more flawed the better.

Which is why Batman works great today and hell nolan's batman's probably as flawed as any hero can be. As well as the fact he's a man really.

You can argue the same almost for tony stark. Both those guys are 1 and 2 (take your pick) at the box office as super-heros. Hell #3 spider-man is arguably more flawed in the reboot than in the raimi films.

Superman went form the "man of tomorrow" to a man out of our times pretty much.

 

[InJustice]

He couldn't pick a better Superman than Brandon Routh?

 

[InJustice]

That's sort of my point. People love the flawed hero's, sometime the more flawed the better.

Which is why Batman works great today and hell nolan's batman's probably as flawed as any hero can be. As well as the fact he's a man really.

You can argue the same almost for tony stark. Both those guys are 1 and 2 (take your pick) at the box office as super-heros. Hell #3 spider-man is arguably more flawed in the reboot than in the raimi films.

Superman went form the "man of tomorrow" to a man out of our times pretty much.

Which is sad to see tbh, I grew up deeply invested in the Superman mythos (and expanded into the DC universe, and eventually into both the DC-Marvel mythos) and loved how someone as powerful as Superman had some frailties within him. He may be the strongest man in the universe, but the fact that he has these powers is what acts as a marker of difference that somewhat prevents him from being one of us. He sees the good in humanity, but at the same time fears and even understands that humanity could reject him.

He is flawless yet flawed is what's intriguing about him.

 

[souperman]

Tried to make a sliding scale for the most watchable (for me) CBMs


A work in progress. Some positions may change when I look closer and remember better.t:

 

[Ultra Nolanite]

To those who have seen it please answer me this.

Does the whole movie make you feel like trailer 3 did ?

Does it deserve that trailer ?

 

[mace1]

Man of steel best superman movie.

http://www.movies.com/movie-news/man-of-steel-best-superman-movie/12497

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Which is why Batman works great today and hell nolan's batman's probably as flawed as any hero can be.

Dark Knight is a brilliant comics-to-movie adaptation -- no doubt about it. Having said that, if the media hadn't turned Ledger into some kind of a martyr-like figure, I doubt the film and its follow-up would have been greeted with the same level of critical acclaim it managed to achieve in light of the late actor's demise.

 

[souperman]

nice review...

 

[Poni_Boy]

Dark Knight is a brilliant comics-to-movie adaptation -- no doubt about it. Having said that, if the media hadn't turned Ledger into some kind of a martyr-like figure, I doubt the film and its follow-up would have been greeted with the same level of critical acclaim it managed to achieve in light of the late actor's demise.

Agreed.

Also, I could argue for days about why Superman is one of the most flawed heroes ever created in comics and that's what makes him so integral to the superhero mythos. He's much more flawed than Batman or Iron Man and on more than just one level.

To have the strength and physical capability to do almost anything including dominate a world you inherently don't belong to and instead choose every moment of every day to use that selflessly for the good of humanity. To show compassion instead of aggression. It's pretty symbolic of the ideal many people wish America stood for in the eyes of the world. Doesn't get more relatable nowadays than that.

 

[Marvolo]

Dark Knight is a brilliant comics-to-movie adaptation -- no doubt about it. Having said that, if the media hadn't turned Ledger into some kind of a martyr-like figure, I doubt the film and its follow-up would have been greeted with the same level of critical acclaim it managed to achieve in light of the late actor's demise.

I would have liked Ledger's acting and the film even if he hadn't died so for me personally his death didn't help the franchise but hurt it. Joker is my favorite comic book character and Ledger brought him to life in a way I may not see again. His death was tragic and for me took away from my enjoyment of the film. I still remember the moment and feeling when I realized In the theater what we had lost. It was when Joker is backing out of the kitchen and he kicks the door open backs out lets the door shut and runs off. It was an odd moment because I suddenly remembered this person was dead and the way he exited the scene was such an embodiment of that.

 

[DKDetective]

Brad Bird to the rescue.

I like the way you think. At the very least, he would be the perfect choice to co-write with Goyer, even if they kept Snyder around as director. Sadly though, isn't he pretty much tied to Disney and Paramount?

In regards to your response to me at the end of the last thread, I left out The Avengers on purpose. Its style of action for the most part left me cold. Not the biggest fan of cartoony spectacle, which I know makes me a terrible superhero fan. I should have mentioned classic James Cameron though.

 

[souperman]

Agreed.

Also, I could argue for days about why Superman is one of the most flawed heroes ever created in comics and that's what makes him so integral to the superhero mythos. He's much more flawed than Batman or Iron Man and on more than just one level.

To have the strength and physical capability to do almost anything including dominate a world you inherently don't belong to and instead choose every moment of every day to use that selflessly for the good of humanity. To show compassion instead of aggression. It's pretty symbolic of the ideal many people wish America stood for in the eyes of the world. Doesn't get more relatable nowadays than that.

Are you saying his flaws are his compassion,sacrifice and selflessness?

 

[Poni_Boy]

Are you saying his flaws are his compassion and selflessness?

Hmm no. Not sure where that other fragment went:

And of course he can be made relatable on film you just have to execute it well. The concept of the character hasn't changed. To have the strength and physical capability to do almost anything including dominate a world you inherently don't belong to and instead choose every moment of every day to use that selflessly for the good of humanity. To show compassion instead of aggression. It's pretty symbolic of the ideal many people wish America stood for in the eyes of the world. Doesn't get more relatable nowadays than that.

 

[Marvolo]

Hmm no. Not sure where that other fragment went:

And of course he can be made relatable on film you just have to execute it well. The concept of the character hasn't changed. To have the strength and physical capability to do almost anything including dominate a world you inherently don't belong to and instead choose every moment of every day to use that selflessly for the good of humanity. To show compassion instead of aggression. It's pretty symbolic of the ideal many people wish America stood for in the eyes of the world. Doesn't get more relatable nowadays than that.

The cynic in me wants to say he doesn't get points for doing the ethical thing. And given his upbringing by good people his helping humanity is entirely expected.

If he had been found and raised by a couple of white supremacist neo nazis and still went on to help humanity I might would count that as an amazing feat.

That's neither here nor there tho because I agree. There are aspects of Superman that are still relevant.

 

[Poni_Boy]

The cynic in me wants to say he doesn't get points for doing the ethical thing. And given his upbringing by good people his helping humanity is entirely expected.

If he had been found and raised by a couple of white supremacist neo nazis and still went on to help humanity I might would count that as an amazing feat.

That's the thing, in terms of relatability to our modern times and problems Superman could very well be used an an allegory for America. This country was founded on virtuous principles, ones that many feel have been ignored for selfish reasons. Do we still get brownie points because we were founded one way but now act another? We've become the strongest world power physically, but are we using it for good? I find it very akin to Superman, and feel it could very much work well in a film if that relativity is explored.

 

[souperman]

...maybe a question of Nature Vs Nurture.

We see in Zod what a non benevolent "god" would do vs what Superman "chooses" to do with these god like powers.

There was a line from one of the animated features, something like:

...imagine what would happen if he ever realized ...

Anybody remember that?

 

[fake]

Ok, I have to say I completely enjoyed the movie. The acting was spot on by everyone. Going in, I was worried that the shadow of the initial movies would hang over this one - I was wrong. Coming out of the movie I realized that I never even thought about comparing the two movies even once.

The performance by Cavill was brilliant. He owns the role completely. Shannon was not as good as expected. Costner and Crowe were both great. Amy Adams and Antje Trauea were both good.

All the criticisms I have heard of lack of character development for everyone apart from Superman do apply, but everyone is forgetting that

Spoiler

the movie takes place in a timespan of 48 hours total for the main parties involved. And in this timeframe every single character almost gets a character moment. Perry White would rather stay and die than leave people behind. Steve Lombard is a perennial flirt, Lois is spunky, Colonel Hardy is for the greater good. Only Jenny doesn't get any defining trait.

The audience I watched it with applauded 5 times (apart from the ending which got the most applause especially when

Spoiler

Clark Kent is introduced

The 5 instances were

Spoiler

1. The truck
2. First flight
3. Gravity beam smash
4. The smallville fight
and most surprisingly
5. when Superman killed Zod.

The final sequence of fights is just brilliantly done. They nailed Superman's flight.

The audience I watched it with loved it, could hear the talk in the lobby post the movie. Don't know if this will translate to all audiences everywhere, but this truly is a great beginning for a new Superman.


EDIT: The most important thing - the movie passes the Bechdel test. There are 2 specific conversations (both one lines, but we are talking letter of the law, not spirit of the law)

Spoiler

1. When Jenny tells Lois - "You have got to see this" regarding the news playing on the TV
2. When Faora tells Lois - "This is a breathing apparatus, it will help you adapt to the atmosphere on our ship". Wouldn't be surprised if this was just added to pass the test actually

 

[Marvolo]

The story takes place in 48 hours? So that means Clarke goes to the fortress and Zod happens to show up after that. Or is Zod's arrival the catalyst for him going to the Fortress? I don't need specifics just some clarity on that point.

Aside from flashbacks that would mean the movie isn't much more than Zod's attack.

 

[InJustice]

...maybe a question of Nature Vs Nurture.

We see in Zod what a non benevolent "god" would do vs what Superman "chooses" to do with these god like powers.

There was a line from one of the animated features, something like:

...imagine what would happen if he ever realized ...

Anybody remember that?

Their upbringings also play a big if you look at it from the context of Man of Steel. 1) Superman - The Kryptonian who was raised with good morals and character by Pa and Ma Kent vs 2) General Zod - The Kryptonian who was predestined to a world of violence as a militant. It certainly does make you wonder...what would Kal-El be without his Yellow Sun powers in Krypton?

It also gives rise to the theme of free will vs. destiny.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I would have liked Ledger's acting and the film even if he hadn't died so for me personally his death didn't help the franchise but hurt it. Joker is my favorite comic book character and Ledger brought him to life in a way I may not see again. His death was tragic and for me took away from my enjoyment of the film. I still remember the moment and feeling when I realized In the theater what we had lost. It was when Joker is backing out of the kitchen and he kicks the door open backs out lets the door shut and runs off. It was an odd moment because I suddenly remembered this person was dead and the way he exited the scene was such an embodiment of that.

Guys (and gals) like us are in a different class altogether though. We appreciate these films on a level those outside of fandom simply can't relate to. I was mostly referring to critics and the general audience. The way society reacts to death and turns ordinary people into martyrs is a very bizarre thing, but that's just how things are. Ledger's death brought a hell of a lot of attention to TDK. His performance was already being talked about, and the news of his death made it something even more special for many; that lauded performance had now become his final act on film. Whereas the Cruise and Holmes romance took the focus away from Batman Begins in the early stages, Ledger's sudden demise did the opposite for the sequel -- it turned TDK into a must see event.

 

[Lencho01]

If Supes ain't being dorky, then he must be emo.

Or Peter Parker-lite.

 

[Marvolo]

Guys (and gals) like us are in a different class altogether though. We appreciate these films on a level those outside of fandom simply can't relate to. I was mostly referring to critics and the general audience. The way society reacts to death and turns ordinary people into martyrs is a very bizarre thing, but that's just how things are. Ledger's death brought a hell of a lot of attention to TDK. His performance was already being talked about, and the news of his death made it something even more special for many; that lauded performance had now become his final act on film. Whereas the Cruise and Holmes romance took the focus away from Batman Begins in the early stages, Ledger's sudden demise did the opposite for the sequel -- it turned TDK into a must see event.

Yeah I can agree with that. I know the night it was announced he died people I never in a million years would have thought would talk about batman were talking about Ledger and TDK.

I do wish he was still alive. Honestly I would have taken a smaller box office and an average critical response to have him not be dead. And I have no doubt I'm far from being alone in that thought.

 

[fake]

The story takes place in 48 hours? So that means Clarke goes to the fortress and Zod happens to show up after that. Or is Zod's arrival the catalyst for him going to the Fortress? I don't need specifics just some clarity on that point.

Aside from flashbacks that would mean the movie isn't much more than Zod's attack.

Well, the whole story doesn't. I mean include flashbacks and everything. But, the basic story which involves all characters takes place over 48 hours.

Spoiler

Once Zod's 24 hour warning is telecast, we basically see the invasion happen and the ending. Even by the loosest estimates this could not have taken more than 72 hours from the telecast of Zod's message till the ending.